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Time to replace?
For a 1984 Ericson the floor has seen its glory days. Our 83 the floor flexed at the steps also, we had flex at the mid section going forward, and some rotting at the galley area. Needless to say after multiple hours of survey on my part how to fix the existing floor we had it replaced.
Our 33rh took 2 sheets of 3/4" marine grade plywood with the teak and holly strips from Boultler, I think the cost of the plywood and the shiping was around 650.00. We had another 350.00 in materials to get the floor out, new screws, epoxy, ect.
We had a professional replace the floor for us at a cost of 2000.00. So total ripout, the chance to check all of the plumbing and electrical under the floor and to replace was a total of 3 grand. Just to clean up the bilge area under the flooring was well worth the cost, there are places that you can not clean without the floor being ripped out.
If the floor is in good shape on the top, the floor has gotten wet on the underside due to bilge water being too high, or the condinsation of the boat over the last 20+ years. Our floor when we took it out was in good shape in some places, but in others it would just fall apart. You should be able to open the aft bilge compartment, lay down on the floor and stick your hand as far aft as possible. Feel the underside of the flooring and see if the plywood is commig apart, if it is its time to think about replacment.
I would say that 80% of all of the Ericsons out there need the floor repalced if the boat is over 20 years and not watched. This is one of the most common threads.
I hope this helps you out, I know I feel 100% better replacing our flooring.
For a 1984 Ericson the floor has seen its glory days. Our 83 the floor flexed at the steps also, we had flex at the mid section going forward, and some rotting at the galley area. Needless to say after multiple hours of survey on my part how to fix the existing floor we had it replaced.
Our 33rh took 2 sheets of 3/4" marine grade plywood with the teak and holly strips from Boultler, I think the cost of the plywood and the shiping was around 650.00. We had another 350.00 in materials to get the floor out, new screws, epoxy, ect.
We had a professional replace the floor for us at a cost of 2000.00. So total ripout, the chance to check all of the plumbing and electrical under the floor and to replace was a total of 3 grand. Just to clean up the bilge area under the flooring was well worth the cost, there are places that you can not clean without the floor being ripped out.
If the floor is in good shape on the top, the floor has gotten wet on the underside due to bilge water being too high, or the condinsation of the boat over the last 20+ years. Our floor when we took it out was in good shape in some places, but in others it would just fall apart. You should be able to open the aft bilge compartment, lay down on the floor and stick your hand as far aft as possible. Feel the underside of the flooring and see if the plywood is commig apart, if it is its time to think about replacment.
I would say that 80% of all of the Ericsons out there need the floor repalced if the boat is over 20 years and not watched. This is one of the most common threads.
I hope this helps you out, I know I feel 100% better replacing our flooring.
solid flooring
I have a 35-3 with competely ruined floorboards, due to a combination of poor P.O. maintenance and a salt water pump under the galley that cracked and nearly sank the boat. Being a slow learner, I have replaced rotten "teak and holly" plywood soles on my last three boats with "teak and holly" plywood (with the accompanying enormous hassle), and disappointing (at least to me)results. I have decided that I have had enough on my "last" boat. We (my carpenter and I) are going to rip out all the junk (again) and replace it with ¾" solid mahogany tongue and grooved (by us) coated with epoxy on the bottom and varnished on the top. This will cost exactly the same as the T & H junk, and about half what real teak would cost. I will also use the opportunity to clean and paint the bilges and repair mystery wires and hoses that traverse the bilge area, and apparently go nowhere. I'll take pictures and let you know how it goes - anybody want to talk me out of it?
steve naulty
E 35-3 "anodyne"
galesville MD
I have a 35-3 with competely ruined floorboards, due to a combination of poor P.O. maintenance and a salt water pump under the galley that cracked and nearly sank the boat. Being a slow learner, I have replaced rotten "teak and holly" plywood soles on my last three boats with "teak and holly" plywood (with the accompanying enormous hassle), and disappointing (at least to me)results. I have decided that I have had enough on my "last" boat. We (my carpenter and I) are going to rip out all the junk (again) and replace it with ¾" solid mahogany tongue and grooved (by us) coated with epoxy on the bottom and varnished on the top. This will cost exactly the same as the T & H junk, and about half what real teak would cost. I will also use the opportunity to clean and paint the bilges and repair mystery wires and hoses that traverse the bilge area, and apparently go nowhere. I'll take pictures and let you know how it goes - anybody want to talk me out of it?
steve naulty
E 35-3 "anodyne"
galesville MD
Is there a weight difference, shifting of boards due to hull flex? Split joints due to water in tge boat and extreme humidity.
I have seen wood floors come apart in home construction due to water in tge air, i would go synthedic, or plywood.
2 cents
I have seen wood floors come apart in home construction due to water in tge air, i would go synthedic, or plywood.
2 cents
to CSMcKillip
Comparing the weight of my proposed floor to the "teak and holly" ply, the weight, with plywood dry, is about the same. However, the plywood immediately begins to absorb moisture through any unsealed nook or cranny at an alarming rate. Look at the bottom of your sole hatches, if you have a keel stepped mast or any bilge water, there will probably be water absorption by the plywood, and hence, increased weight. Not to mention that it immediately starts to delaminate. Or, if you do as I have done in the past, slather on enough epoxy to encase the plywood for all time, to be discovered by our distant descendants as "obviously a object of religious veneration"(well, it IS a SOLE), well, epoxy is heavy. And it's still fake looking plywood.
Now, if you're as old as I am, you can remember when boats were made of, well, boards, which functioned very well to float in or stand on, and didn't do any of those things you're afraid will happen. They did rot, though, how they did rot…..
Even today, higher end boats, like some tartans I have been aboard, have REAL WOOD as their soles. (in their case , mahogany, since teak has become prohibitively expensive and holly is an endangered species (the "holly" in teak and holly ply is maple). The mahogany will be sealed, but it undoubtedly will absorb moisture (although it has been sitting in a covered shed without walls in the boatyard for a year or so now, so its moisture content is probably what it will be on the boat). Also, I figure weight down low is not necessarily a big problem, since it will contribute to stability.
As far as splitting, shifting, etc, the mahogany will have a long, loose tongue and groove with beveled edges on top, and will be screwed to the existing floors (and, in a boat, that doesn't mean the "floor") and bedded in small dollops of cured 4200, to give them some room to breathe, and, most importantly, be easily removable if a something breaks under the sole. I think I will dispense with plugs over the screws to make this easier, and use the bronze square drive screws mentioned in a previous sole thread. What haven't I thought of?? Critiques welcomed...
Comparing the weight of my proposed floor to the "teak and holly" ply, the weight, with plywood dry, is about the same. However, the plywood immediately begins to absorb moisture through any unsealed nook or cranny at an alarming rate. Look at the bottom of your sole hatches, if you have a keel stepped mast or any bilge water, there will probably be water absorption by the plywood, and hence, increased weight. Not to mention that it immediately starts to delaminate. Or, if you do as I have done in the past, slather on enough epoxy to encase the plywood for all time, to be discovered by our distant descendants as "obviously a object of religious veneration"(well, it IS a SOLE), well, epoxy is heavy. And it's still fake looking plywood.
Now, if you're as old as I am, you can remember when boats were made of, well, boards, which functioned very well to float in or stand on, and didn't do any of those things you're afraid will happen. They did rot, though, how they did rot…..
Even today, higher end boats, like some tartans I have been aboard, have REAL WOOD as their soles. (in their case , mahogany, since teak has become prohibitively expensive and holly is an endangered species (the "holly" in teak and holly ply is maple). The mahogany will be sealed, but it undoubtedly will absorb moisture (although it has been sitting in a covered shed without walls in the boatyard for a year or so now, so its moisture content is probably what it will be on the boat). Also, I figure weight down low is not necessarily a big problem, since it will contribute to stability.
As far as splitting, shifting, etc, the mahogany will have a long, loose tongue and groove with beveled edges on top, and will be screwed to the existing floors (and, in a boat, that doesn't mean the "floor") and bedded in small dollops of cured 4200, to give them some room to breathe, and, most importantly, be easily removable if a something breaks under the sole. I think I will dispense with plugs over the screws to make this easier, and use the bronze square drive screws mentioned in a previous sole thread. What haven't I thought of?? Critiques welcomed...
Just the right amount of Sole
One ameliorating thing is that this is not any "structural" sort of problem. Also, one bad area in the sole may not condemn the whole thing.
If you decide to replace just one section, you might be able to mark off a section for removal and use one of those awesome Fein Multimaster tools (or a cheaper slower knock off version) to remove only the bad area.
Just be sure to put any new sole pieces down with flush screws and no plugs. That's the way I reinstalled all of our sole pieces when I refinished/patched the original ones. I have removed sections once a while since and never found a trace of rot. It's time to refinish them again due to wear and dulling in the varnish surface, tho.
Regards,
Loren
ps: link to the main "sole restoration" thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1526&referrerid=28
One ameliorating thing is that this is not any "structural" sort of problem. Also, one bad area in the sole may not condemn the whole thing.
If you decide to replace just one section, you might be able to mark off a section for removal and use one of those awesome Fein Multimaster tools (or a cheaper slower knock off version) to remove only the bad area.
Just be sure to put any new sole pieces down with flush screws and no plugs. That's the way I reinstalled all of our sole pieces when I refinished/patched the original ones. I have removed sections once a while since and never found a trace of rot. It's time to refinish them again due to wear and dulling in the varnish surface, tho.
Regards,
Loren
ps: link to the main "sole restoration" thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1526&referrerid=28
Last edited:
Has anyone used this vendor or used a system like this for their cabin sole?
http://www.maritimewoodproducts.com/interior_flooring.html
Steve, why are you going to T&G the mahogany yourself? Do you have a plan on how to deal with the inspection hatches? I'll be interested to follow your project as I'm partial "real" wood
.
http://www.maritimewoodproducts.com/interior_flooring.html
Steve, why are you going to T&G the mahogany yourself? Do you have a plan on how to deal with the inspection hatches? I'll be interested to follow your project as I'm partial "real" wood
.
exoduse35
Sustaining Member
Other great choices for sole timber are aptong and purple heart. I saw you have yours but others May want to check into it. Both are often used in the trucking world for flatbed trailers for their strength, weight, water resistance and stability properties. And they ate relatively cheep in plank form. they are much closer to teak in performance and mahogany in price. Edd
I re-did the sole on my 30+. Here's the issue: the actual sole on the 30+ is fiberglass, with inset depressions in the "pan" just deep enough to hold cutouts of plywood. The plywood is VERY thin...3/8" I believe. The plywood contributes nothing to the structure of the floor. It just sits in the depression. The entire sole can be redone from a single sheet of plywood, but only if you are looking for a cosmetic upgrade, not a structural one. My boat was an 81, but I doubt this changed by 84. The "give" that the surveyor felt was probably just the fiberglass flexing.
mherrcat
Contributing Partner
I would have to look at mine again to swear to it but I believe the sole on my '85 30+ is at least about 5/8"; I know the bilge covers are. I think the 30+ was the first model to get the TAFG but it was only partial. Don't know what year that started or if it had anything to do with the sole thickness. My sole feels solid. Yes, you can see that the underside of the bilge covers are discolored due to moisture, but they are still intact.
Rod and Mark,
Thank you for your input. I have looked at the sole from the bigle access points and everything seems to be in good shape, so I wonder if it is simply flex rather than structural deterioration.
I'll give it a good look when I open her up for the season. Can't wait.
Thanks
Peter
Gayle Winds
Bayview, ID
Thank you for your input. I have looked at the sole from the bigle access points and everything seems to be in good shape, so I wonder if it is simply flex rather than structural deterioration.
I'll give it a good look when I open her up for the season. Can't wait.
Thanks
Peter
Gayle Winds
Bayview, ID
Restoring rotted cabin sole
Sometimes it is possible to save the original teak and holly laminate, even if the plywood of the sole is soft and waterlogged.
Here's a blog entry on using laminating epoxy to put things back together.
Anything to dodge sole replacement....
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...I-quot-Delaminated-floorboards-4-minute-video
Sometimes it is possible to save the original teak and holly laminate, even if the plywood of the sole is soft and waterlogged.
Here's a blog entry on using laminating epoxy to put things back together.
Anything to dodge sole replacement....
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...I-quot-Delaminated-floorboards-4-minute-video
LeifThor
Member III
This is probably a good place to ask my question about soft flooring.
1972 E35-2
This model and year was done up with a fiberglass ceiling and fiberglass sole. The sole includes between 2-6 inches rise at edge of the floor going up to meet the mahogany furniture, so it's basically a pan. I know I'm a minority here, but we love it preferring it over a wood floor.
The sole has an interesting design in it's make up. Most of the sole is fiberglass on top of plywood (3/4) and it's glassed on top and bottom. The top is the floor we see which is white and makes the boat look quite big inside. The bottom is a pink fiberglass mat with nothing over it, so the mat is visible if you look below. Where it's a bit odd, is the very place you'd want a thick strong floor, is the very place there's no plywood, and instead it's just fiberglass about 1/8 inch thick which is at the bottom of the entry ladder.
Here's the why maybe...
My particular Ericson has the engine under the settee in the main cabin area. So where that engine compartment is, there's no sole, and instead if we stripped away the furniture, there's a hook of sole where the ladder is, a thin walkway going around the settee, and then filling in the floor under the remainder of the settee, head, and up until the V berth.
From a structural standpoint, it's a tough problem to solve to make that area supported from underneath. So far the best solution I came up with was to use a piece of PVC pipe, and as a column it runs between the lip of the inside edge of the engine compartment, to the bottom of the keel. It's about 18 inches long, and does a good job.
However, I've discovered a leak in my keel (very small) right around where the column went, so I'm wondering if I'm exchanging stability in the floor, for a weakened hull around the keel.
Anyone have any thoughts??
Thanks.
1972 E35-2
This model and year was done up with a fiberglass ceiling and fiberglass sole. The sole includes between 2-6 inches rise at edge of the floor going up to meet the mahogany furniture, so it's basically a pan. I know I'm a minority here, but we love it preferring it over a wood floor.
The sole has an interesting design in it's make up. Most of the sole is fiberglass on top of plywood (3/4) and it's glassed on top and bottom. The top is the floor we see which is white and makes the boat look quite big inside. The bottom is a pink fiberglass mat with nothing over it, so the mat is visible if you look below. Where it's a bit odd, is the very place you'd want a thick strong floor, is the very place there's no plywood, and instead it's just fiberglass about 1/8 inch thick which is at the bottom of the entry ladder.
Here's the why maybe...
My particular Ericson has the engine under the settee in the main cabin area. So where that engine compartment is, there's no sole, and instead if we stripped away the furniture, there's a hook of sole where the ladder is, a thin walkway going around the settee, and then filling in the floor under the remainder of the settee, head, and up until the V berth.
From a structural standpoint, it's a tough problem to solve to make that area supported from underneath. So far the best solution I came up with was to use a piece of PVC pipe, and as a column it runs between the lip of the inside edge of the engine compartment, to the bottom of the keel. It's about 18 inches long, and does a good job.
However, I've discovered a leak in my keel (very small) right around where the column went, so I'm wondering if I'm exchanging stability in the floor, for a weakened hull around the keel.
Anyone have any thoughts??
Thanks.
LeifThor
Member III
With my flexing fiberglass floor (only around the galley entry way) of my 1972 E35-2, I've spend many an hour thinking how to resolve this. Not sure how everyone else who has the fiberglass floor, their floor was constructed, but here's the problem to solve in a nutshell-
For the majority of my cabin sole, Ericson used a thick sheet of plywood, and fiberglassed both sides, but chose (I'm sure due to the tight area) to only use fiberglass with no plywood in the exact area you need the most strength, at the base of the entry ladder and around the galley, which could be called "the first three steps aboard". So when you step off the stairway, you're standing on just over an 1/8 inch of fiberglass which also goes for the entire galley area. So yeah it's gonna flex with our 21st century usually 200 pound plus bodies. So before solving this, a nod to the Ericson builders who were able to build a floor/sole so thin that in my case has held up to over 50 years of primarily liveaboard life on the water.
When I realized this design choice I was floored (sorry), as that makes no sense at all, except for the fact that there's a lot of stuff happening under the sole around that area.
Hours and hours spent wondering how to solve this, and again the problem is kind of simple, as it's the spanse of the floor combined with the thinness of the sole in that area that is the reason for the flex.
I tried buttressing the middle of the area with limited success. It stopped the flexing, but instead put force on the keel, which just didn't work well. It also required the buttress to be quite thin/small, so the pressure on the sole where the buttress was was quite acute, and in the way of items in the bilge area that just made the whole thing a pain.
But I think last night after thinking many many hours on the problem, I may have come up with the solution.
I'm going to epoxy a block of G10 to the sloping hull underneath the sole in and about the galley area, which is close enough to the base of the ladder it will help that area, and support the floor for the "first three steps aboard". The purpose of the epoxied G10 is to create a level surface from a sloped one. If I'm successful, I can then use a short piece of 4" wide PVC pipe to create a fairly wide column between hull and sole underside. If after extensive use, it works, I can epoxy the pipe or use another material. And if it doesn't work, I simply have a small block of G10 epoxied to my hull in an area nothing else resides in.
Hopefully I'll be able to get to it in the next couple months, and I'll post pics....especially if it works lol.
Oh, and along the lines of personal taste, to anyone who's gonna say "just put a beautiful wood floor in there instead", I have two comments.
1. I'm a huge fan of the white fiberglass floor, along with my fiberglass ceiling giving my Ericson a feeling you're on an airplane (from the 40's) as much as a boat, making the boat feel large (light colors make a space look larger).
2. Ericson designed the 35-2 sole to be the stringers to the hull, so if you remove them, you'll want to build in traditional stringers below the sole.
***These are opinions only, I speak only for myself, and in no way consider myself a source of knowledge. I'm speaking from my experience and what I've read about how these boats were built. As Abe Lincoln used to say "on a good day I'm only wrong half the time".
For the majority of my cabin sole, Ericson used a thick sheet of plywood, and fiberglassed both sides, but chose (I'm sure due to the tight area) to only use fiberglass with no plywood in the exact area you need the most strength, at the base of the entry ladder and around the galley, which could be called "the first three steps aboard". So when you step off the stairway, you're standing on just over an 1/8 inch of fiberglass which also goes for the entire galley area. So yeah it's gonna flex with our 21st century usually 200 pound plus bodies. So before solving this, a nod to the Ericson builders who were able to build a floor/sole so thin that in my case has held up to over 50 years of primarily liveaboard life on the water.
When I realized this design choice I was floored (sorry), as that makes no sense at all, except for the fact that there's a lot of stuff happening under the sole around that area.
Hours and hours spent wondering how to solve this, and again the problem is kind of simple, as it's the spanse of the floor combined with the thinness of the sole in that area that is the reason for the flex.
I tried buttressing the middle of the area with limited success. It stopped the flexing, but instead put force on the keel, which just didn't work well. It also required the buttress to be quite thin/small, so the pressure on the sole where the buttress was was quite acute, and in the way of items in the bilge area that just made the whole thing a pain.
But I think last night after thinking many many hours on the problem, I may have come up with the solution.
I'm going to epoxy a block of G10 to the sloping hull underneath the sole in and about the galley area, which is close enough to the base of the ladder it will help that area, and support the floor for the "first three steps aboard". The purpose of the epoxied G10 is to create a level surface from a sloped one. If I'm successful, I can then use a short piece of 4" wide PVC pipe to create a fairly wide column between hull and sole underside. If after extensive use, it works, I can epoxy the pipe or use another material. And if it doesn't work, I simply have a small block of G10 epoxied to my hull in an area nothing else resides in.
Hopefully I'll be able to get to it in the next couple months, and I'll post pics....especially if it works lol.
Oh, and along the lines of personal taste, to anyone who's gonna say "just put a beautiful wood floor in there instead", I have two comments.
1. I'm a huge fan of the white fiberglass floor, along with my fiberglass ceiling giving my Ericson a feeling you're on an airplane (from the 40's) as much as a boat, making the boat feel large (light colors make a space look larger).
2. Ericson designed the 35-2 sole to be the stringers to the hull, so if you remove them, you'll want to build in traditional stringers below the sole.
***These are opinions only, I speak only for myself, and in no way consider myself a source of knowledge. I'm speaking from my experience and what I've read about how these boats were built. As Abe Lincoln used to say "on a good day I'm only wrong half the time".
I have no direct experience with that EY model, but did solve a kinda similar flex problem with our boat. Our model has an interior pan molding with big inserts for the T&H sole pieces. From the git-go I noticed that there was some little flex in either side of the section by the boarding area from the companionway. At those places the hull is about 3" below the molding, at a slight slant. I could access it by removing the screws that held the rear T&H plywood sole section(s).
I mentioned it to a friend who had a lot of woodworking experience, and he suggested the FRP version of a "bacon wrapped tenderloin"... !
For each side, I reached under a little ways and sanded the hull and bottom of the molding, and cleaned the areas with acetone.
With this "meaty" concept in mind, I cut some little 1 X 1 X 2 inch blocks of soft foam, and wrapped wetted-out lengths of fiberglass cloth around and around them. Gently wedged them in place, like odd lumpy little columns. They have never moved and those areas are solid to walk on, decades later.
A suggestion, FWIW, and maybe a chuckle.
I mentioned it to a friend who had a lot of woodworking experience, and he suggested the FRP version of a "bacon wrapped tenderloin"... !
For each side, I reached under a little ways and sanded the hull and bottom of the molding, and cleaned the areas with acetone.
With this "meaty" concept in mind, I cut some little 1 X 1 X 2 inch blocks of soft foam, and wrapped wetted-out lengths of fiberglass cloth around and around them. Gently wedged them in place, like odd lumpy little columns. They have never moved and those areas are solid to walk on, decades later.
A suggestion, FWIW, and maybe a chuckle.
Mr. Scarlett
Member III
When the water tank below the cabin sole began to leak I assumed it was due to age. A search on here confirmed that I may have had the last one still in service.
Now I'm beginning to think that moving the batteries from the cockpit into the port settee may have been the culprit. Their full weight is bearing on the stringer holding up the molded in pan. That stringer is notched to go over the corner of the tank but does not span the full width. The bench seating is mounted to the bulkhead and has stayed put. I took this pic as I was about to leave today. Tomorrow I will pull the batteries and take more photos but I think I have a big job ahead. Right when it's time to start using the boat.