32-2 holding tank and head replacement

[ChrisS]

Peeww! Old hoses, and old recirculating tank, and an old leaky Groco HC head all require serious attention. The current configuration is a head to holding tank with a Y valve between the two for overboard discharge, but I need a pumpout station to empty the tank. So I was thinking of going to a head to tank configuration, with Y valve between the tank and deck fitting so I can then have a manual pump to empty the tank outside the three mile limit.

I do have a few questions:

1) How do I secure the holding tank? The current nine gallon tank is under the dinette seat just aft of the main bulkhead. It's wedged in there securely with a few pieces of wood as shims, but seems jury-rigged. Is there a better system to secure the tank?

2) Have other 32-2 owners found a good tank shape to maximize this space under the dinette bench? The current tank I have is rectangular, and is tilted inboard--but the outlet is at the high end so it can't be fully emptied.

3) My Groco HC head can be upgraded and rebuilt for about $130 in parts. West Marine sells a manual Jabasco head for $150. Does anyone have any experience with the Jabasco head?

Any other insight regarding this project would be seriously appreciated...my kids crinkle their noses until we air the boat out (despite regular doses of Odorlos).

 

[chaco]

Holding Tank Heaven

1. Hold down the tank with blocks and ss strap
2. Check out www.ronco-plastics.com for a holding tank that will fit.
I was able to fit a 13ga tank in to this space.
3. The design is simple. Out of the head to a vented loop....to a Forespar
Y-Valve -one way to the Tank / one way to the next Y-Valve....
one way to the Tank Pump and PumpOut / one way to the outlet thruhull.
Now you can:
1. Pump direct from the Head to the Holding Tank
2. Pump direct from the Head to the thruhull
3. PumpOut from the Tank to the thruhull with a manual pump or macerator
4. PumpOut from the Tank at the Sanitary Station

Yippee you did it ALL :nerd:

4. Rebuild the old Head. The Jabsco Head is a CHEAP throw-away product.
The best Heads start at the Raritan PHII and get better in the Groco
and Wiilcox-Crittenden products.

Happy Holding Tank

 

[treilley]

Nice design Dan but I just did this and saved a boatload of money(no, I didn't change to Geico) by using no vented loops(other than intake) or Y valves. Here is what I did.

- Direct from head to tank
- From tank to T
- One side of T to the deck pumpout and one side to the hand pump and thruhull

You need to make sure that you keep your thruhull closed except when pumping overboard(required by CG anyway) and that your deck pumpout has a good seal.

Another thing I added was a valve in the sink drain to quiet down the flushing. My 35-3 has a common thruhull for head intake and sink drain with a T.

 

[ChrisS]

Tank Model #?

Dan--

Thanks for the reply. By chance do you know the model # of the tank you used? Thanks again.

 

[chaco]

The Holding Tank is a Ronco B245 - 24L X 16W X 9H with Inspection Port.
All Ericsons are not created equal....so measure the space and make sure
you can install the 1 1/2" #148 Shields Hose and get the Settee lid back on.

Good Luck

 

[rwthomas1]

The setup on my E38 seems to work great and minimum valving, etc. The head pumps direct to the tank. The tank can be emptied by the deck pumpout or with a Whale manual pump to a thru-hull. There is one inlet and two outlets on the tank. The authorities accept the removal of the thru-hull handle in the closed position as "locked". RT

 

[gareth harris]

1.
The best Heads start at the Raritan PHII and get better in the Groco
and Wiilcox-Crittenden products.
:

My original head was a Raritan PHII, and I have been very impressed with their customer service. When I had problems back in 2000, the phone number listed in the wilting, dusty, 28 year old brochure that was with the owner's maunal was still accurate. I bought a new pump and seal kit that worked perfectly.

I got my replacement tank from:

http://www.kracor.com/support/holdingtanks.pdf

at 14 gallons.


I see one drawback with Tim's arrangement, which is that if you have people on board liable to move the wrong valve handle, the outflow through hull could be a risk; I would put a vented loop there.

(I think part of the reason I felt compelled to talk about Raritan, is that I have spent several hours on the phone to HP over the last few weeks, plus sent them multiple faxes, due to a malfunctioning DVD player on an eighteen month old laptop; and all their customer service professionals have achieved toward fixing it is wiping my hard drive. Companies that seem to want to sell to you twice are few and far between these days.)

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[treilley]

Good point Gareth but I am very clear to my guest what they can and cannot touch. I also rarely have guests and they are usually knowledgable sailors. And even if the thruhull was left open it would take a lot before anything came back and overflowed the head.

As for Raritan, I agree. Great customer service. I also have a PHII.

As for HP, be carefull as there are different levels of service based on what product you own. Their Home based products are generally just as crappy as Dells and Gateways(along with their service). But the professional level support is very good. I work with them all the time and they are far better than their couterparts at Dell.

 

[chaco]

Crinkle Nose

The SMELL is usually coming from a leaking vent, loose hoses or leaking tanks
Just worked on a friends boat with NO Holding Tank vent
The old hoses are also a source of odors through the hose.
Another source of really icky smells is the raw flush water. If you do not use
the Head frequently the raw water critters die in the hoses and stink you out
as you release the water in to the head. Many owners have turned to fresh
water tanks to flush the Head I keep 1ga water containers with a small
amount of RV Tank odor control added to use as flush water for use at the
Dock and day trips.
As your plumbing system piping has probably never been replaced, the only
way to get rid of the smell once and for all is to replace ALL the hoses with
Sanitary Hose (Shields #148) and seal all the joints with silicon sealant :nerd:
I have replaced the tank, rebuilt the Head and replaced ALL hoses and have
a clean and fresh boat

That funky smelling boat ruins all the fun !

Good Luck to you

 

[Glyn Judson]

Hose and odors, replacement.....not!

Dan and all, I beg to differ as regards the need of replacing hoses to rid a system of odor. I especially differ when it comes to replacing old hose with expensive and hard-to-work-with Shields hose. That said, it's wise to look for leaks or loose hose clamps, etc before doing anything else. But by merely flushing the existing system with a simple 50/50 mix of muriatic acid (found at swimming pool suppliers or big box stores) and water, all odor can be eliminated completely. The mineral build up in the bowl, hoses and tank acts as an odor sponge and this flush will dissolve all of it. I might add that depending on where you live, you might only have to flush the system this way every two to three years or longer. It starts by pouring one mixed quart into the toilet bowl and letting it sit there for 5-10 minutes. If there's enough deposit there, it'll foam and fizz like Alka Seltzer and turn yellow like urine. Pump that into the tank and repeat with another mixed quart. Then take the boat out for a short sail or harbor putt so as to slosh the mix through the hoses and tank. Flush the entire system by discharging via a municipal pump-out and then run three full holding tanks worth of fresh water through the system. Don't forget to run fresh water through the bowl and hoses to the tank too. Begin a routine of regular maintenance of one ounce of Odorlos (available at West Marine) per 10 gallon tank capacity/week during the sailing season and I guarantee that within 24 hours or less of doing this, the smelliest system will be 95% cured and within a week or two at the most, totally odor free. This system of flushing and maintenance just plain WORKS and for the life of me, I don't understand why year after year, season after season, people seem to automatically default to the labor and cost of head, hose and/or tank replacement to rid their boats of that horrible odor when this SIMPLE and EFFECTIVE method exists. Of course an all new system can't smell, it's all new!! So is the solution to replace the system every few years when it starts to smell or doesn't it make more sense to maintain the system with a proven formula? Trust me, I know what I'm talking about so save your time for sailing, not unnecessary, yucky head work. Use your head, don't replace it. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Glyn Judson]

Head replacement.

Chris and all, An alternative to fixing or replacing like for like of an old and broken/leaking head is to buy a quality used one. The two that stand out in my mind are the manual Wilcox Crittenden Skipper and the Groco K-H. Both these china and solid bronze heads once rebuilt and cleaned up (50/50 muriatic acid and water mix) will last you a life time and probably never again need servicing. Visit your local consignment chandlery and I'd wager that you'll find one or both of those models for sale. Over the years I've bought at least three Groco K-H models, two of them for two of my own boats and one for a friends boat. In all cases I got them used at Minny's near my home and never paid more than $60.00 for any of them. You can also selectively purchase individual parts from Groco avoiding the cost of an entire rebuild kit and I'm sure the same is true of Wilcox Crittenden too. So for waaay less than $100.00 you can have the best of the best and do away with patch repairing a charter boat type head made of lots of plastic. Don't know of a consignment chandler near you? Visit the http://www.goodoldboat.com consignment list under Resources For Sailors and I'm sure you can find one close by. Regards, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[ChrisS]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Dan, you're right about measurements. I can't fit a tank larger than 9 gallons in that spot, unless it curves with the shape of the hull. I may have one fabricated to maximize tankage.

Glyn, you're right about maintaining the system, but this one is old and failing. I will try to rebuild the Groco head, and if it's too old look for a used model. My goal is to set things up right and then keep the stink away!

Again, thanks for all the replies.

 

[Glyn Judson]

To repair or replace & is bigger better?.

Chris, Good start to consider repair of your existing Groco head first. Then if that's not satisfactory, begin a search for a quality used replacement. There's wisdom in always getting the best the first time if you can, it lessens the possibility of buying things twice, the cheap one first followed by the quality one next and in most cases, the last forever. I don't think you said that your holding tank had any catastrophic damage so before replacing it, first try everything that's been suggested. In the case of a holding tank, smaller really is better. You see it forces one to be judicious with its use and causes one to empty, give it a quick fresh or salt water flush and recharge it with Odorlos more often so the waste doesn't sit in it so long. Our Ronco tank is less than the original 13 gallon capacity by a small measure and it serves us well for extended stays at Catalina Island where we can use facilities ashore for the most part. Day sails are even easier in that regard. Our original Ronco had a crack in the tank itself at a fitting that couldn't be repaired so replacement was the only option. Ronco made this one too but have since doubled the wall thickness, hence the slightly smaller capacity. In your case, I'd bet that a good cleaning would do the trick. Failing that get in touch with Ronco http://www.ronco-plastics.com here in SoCal and take care of the ordering on the phone and by fax for fitting placement and sizes. If you do have a new one made, consider having them install an access plate for future hosing out, etc. But in truth I had them fit one to my tank and since January, 2003 when I put it in, I've yet to even open it much less use it for any reason. I have more suggestions that you might find helpful and would be glad to share them with you with illustrative photos so feel free to email me back channel at glynjudson@roadrunner.com and I'd be happy to share them with you. Good luck and keep everyone up to date on the project, Glyn Judson E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[jazz177]

Hi all,

I see the subject is fairly well covered but having gone through this whole tank, head, hose replacement thing on our E32-2 Jazz, I will put in my learnings. I was able to fit a 14 gal. tank under the portside aft end of the V berth. It took some cutting to increrase the opening but it provides very short routing of the hose from the head to the tank. The tank is a Ronco (RH-B238) from http://www.tank-depot.com/ costs $127, about half of the same tank locally. I also got a fitting kit with inspection port from the same place.

My plumbing is the same as one discribed earlier it runs from the head to the tank then to a T. One side goes up to the deck fitting for pumpouts the other loops around to a hand pump and then down to the thruhull.

I replaced all the hoses with the #148 shields hose and installed a new vent. The hoses that were on the system when we bought the boat were quite old and believe me it made a big differance to replace them.

The head smells are totaly gone. I pump the tank at every opportunity and flush it with fresh water usually at every pumping.


John F.
Jazz E32-2

 

[ChrisS]

John--

Thanks for the tank details. I thought about using the vee berth space, but I have a through hull there for the speedo, and I wouldn't want to make it in accessable. The intake through hull for the head has failed, and I was able to plug it and will be hauling this week. So I am going to put off the tank replacement until I get that straightened out and the head rebuilt (fingers crossed). Most likely I will keep the tank in its exisiting location and see if I can squeeze a 11 or 12 gallon tank in there.

 

[treilley]

Ronco

Always call Ronco for pricing. They are often lower than their resellers. I got my holding tank last year for half price from them.

 

[John Bouchard]

Ronco Tanks

Jazz177 indicated a 14 gallon B238 tank from Ronco. That's exactly what I used a few years ago. I had then built a model to see how much I had to enlarge the port v-berth opening. And I then marked where the hoses would best be located. I've attached a pic or two. I have more if anyone needs detail...

I measured this all up, and sent the details directly to Ronco, and they sent me the B238 with all the fittings in place.

Used Shield hose (white stuff?), and you can use a heat gun (lukewarm setting!) to soften it a bit to make tight angles and fit easier over the fittings. VERY CAREFULLY I might add... you can easily heat too much and it will kink like crazy.

The system has worked well, and no odor so far... 4th season coming up.

 

[Cory B]

V-Berth

That looks like what we did on our old boat, except I made the tank myself.

I slightly enlarged the opening in the vberth, made a cardboard mockup, and built a stitch and glue tank out of epoxy, glass, and 3/8" marine grade plywood. I lined the inside with side of cloth and a couple of coats of epoxy. Never leaked and never smelled. I estimated the capacity just shy of 13 gallons.

A nice side benefit is that the area under the sette just aft of the head is primo storage.