A-4 replacement no longer hypothetical

[windjunkee]

My partner is on a first name basis with the guys at Moyer Marine. They ARE great. Most of the parts we replaced on our engine came from Moyer. Ultimately, A-4's are just glorified lawnmower engines so the systems are simple. We've had all sorts of interesting issues that you just don't expect - like when the engine almost immediately overheated on starboard tack (no, the water intake did not come out of the water). Or the backflow through the exhaust that allowed gobs of seawater into the engine when we were running in following seas (yep, we put a drain on our water lift muffler and that seemed to do the trick). The install of the new engine was ultimately the death of us. We took our time finding the replacement engine. We had a pro do the rebuild when it was out of the boat. It was putting the new one into the boat where everything kinda got hinkie.
When we bought VOR in 2004, it had the engine head off and there was water and rust sitting on the cylinder heads. We thought we had to do an immediate replacement, but a little encouragement from Moyer, a bead hone, a bunch of new parts and some trial and error and we had a working engine. Albeit we had reduced compression on the back two cylinders and we had to deal with other issues, but that little motor took us many places and got us out of trouble more than once.
So listen to the rebuild crowd. These engines last forever. However, once the interior barriers between sea water and oil were breached, we had to replace it. That old engine was toast. If you do replace it, be vigilant about the alignment. It is a bitch.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[Rob Salinas]

Wow, nice job on the upgrades and repairs, your way ahead of me in that department. Most all of my sweat is in the engine compartment. Your going to have one sweet lil boat, that will take you anywhere you want to go. Heck, someone sailed a E-27 to Japan from California! IMO every boat in the marina is a lifelong project, the trick is to get to the point where you can sail and enjoy while making improvements or repairs. Have you seen for your self the pump and oil seal leaking? If not get an inspection mirror on a stick, a flashlight and some rags. Wipe down all you can reach and run it. You can run it on the hard, run water intake from a bucket, do not hook up straight to garden hose, you will instantly fill entire motor with water,BAD. Now find that leak(s). Oil and water can travel,and given the angle the A-4 sits the oil seal is the lowest part of the motor, it may or maynot be leaking. If you find the pump is leakin, might think about new MMI pump, sealed bearings, no grease cup, and save old to rebuild later and keep as a spare. It's two bolts and two hoses to get off. Add a fresh water flush with a garden hose fitting on the end and an inline ball valve, get about 3ft of clear 1/2" hose with male garden hose fitting on one end to stick in your 5gal bucket. Do your acid flush now if you are concerned about water passages, it's easier on the hard because you have to catch all that acidic crap in a bucket as it exits the boat. Have a few boxes of baking soda on hand to neutralize any spills and the waste in the bucket. What plugs are you running? What color are they? I'm running Autolite 437s, they are a little hotter than the Champs. Rebuild the carb, replace fuel filters, do you have a polishing filter between fuel pump and carb? Check fuel tank for crap, it sucks when you clean carb only to fill it up with dirty gas. Ok, that should keep you busy for a weekend or two. It's a good start, and you never know, that's all you might need to do for now. Remember how to eat an elephant, one bite at a time Best of luck to you! Again PM me or call if you have ?s
Rob

 

[clp]

Gas burners. It's all good mate.

I find it difficult to believe what I'm about to purport here, but unless you intend to hang your hat in the boat for say maybe five years, you'll never even come close to seeing a 'return' on a fueler. I'll start by saying, I despise a gas burner on a molecular level approaching crawling vermin. HATE them, and will only work on one for a friend in DIRE need, or a whole lotta money. Seeing as I have little use for more money, that makes it unlikely I'll mess with it. Including the fact that everybody hates me as well, that about settles it..
But I wanted to throw in that scathing opinion before I said, there is no way I would repower simply to go fuel. The honest truth is, the A4 is an outstanding little engine that has served countless sailors for years, and that is great. Largely due to the 'old school' technology of them makes it simple to work on. And yes, I have worked on them, along with who knows, maybe thousands of gassers. Probably built 40 of 'em, and twice that many diesels. The machine work being already done, a 3406B can be assembled in a day. The reason I threw all that out there is because I think I know where you're at mechanically speaking. If you are uncomfortable with say the crank and rod bearings, have a local shop build your short block, and then you fit it out with its ancillary options which is simple enough, and great mechanical experience without worrying the crankshaft torque specs. With a little instruction by a local COMPETENT mechanic that has no financial interest in your project, that is a nice job to do, cheap enough, and will give you probably many years of enjoyment. I won't even begin to touch on what you WILL encounter during a repower. I would have to love the boat intensely, it belonged to dear old grandad, or Francis Chichester made a 200 mile day in it. And the bloke that starts blowing smoke in yer keester about the 'horrors of the gasser' is an idiot, that you shouldn't be hanging around with anyway, because if you listen to this enough you too will be second guessing The Grassy Knoll..

 

[Schoolboyheart]

Repowered with beta 14

Sorry I'm coming in late. I repowered my e27 with a beta 14 and love the engine. One thing that's really nice is that the beta folks let you do as much of the work as you want and then they can do the rest. I cruise for a couple weeks in the summer up in Canada with my family (2 kids under three plus wife) and have to have a dependable engine.

i had to cut out the wall that blocks off the sink as well as most of the back of the engine compartment. To be honest this gives you great access to the engine. I had the fuel tank cleaned and the just added a fuel return to the tank vent.

all in all the cost was about $13,500

 

[Christian Williams]

Thanks for the real-world report of real-world costs.

 

[Schoolboyheart]

No problem I should mention I removed the old engine cleaned the compartment, removed the exhaust/water lift, and performed the cutting. The rest was done by the yard. It's definitely tough when you paid less than that for the boat but certainly worth it.

 

[Loren Beach]

Whether it is "worth it"

No problem. I should mention I removed the old engine cleaned the compartment, removed the exhaust/water lift, and performed the cutting. The rest was done by the yard. It's definitely tough when you paid less than that for the boat but certainly worth it.

I know several owners of Ericsons and other makes that have put in new diesels (all Beta except for one Yanmar). All of them subscribe to some variant of the theory that they planed to keep their boats about another decade (minimum) and wanted a reliable aux engine when they are out cruising, away from repair places.
If we ever change engines, That would be our rationale also.
Given that our boat needs to be reliable and stay safe for a long long time, we would amortize out the cost of such an upgrade in use of the boat.

Additionally, if and when you sell it, a late model diesel Will bring more money (i.e. you get back a dime or two - or maybe three- on each dollar spent) AND it will sell a Lot faster.
When selling a boat, time is usually important - sometimes almost equal to money.

Loren

 

[Afrakes]

Reliability

Would you all agree that a new diesel or gas engine would be considered reliable? The reliability over the long term would depend on the owner and how well they have maintained the engine and the amount of use it has had. Use is a term that covers a wide range. For weekenders use can be not much more than getting away from and back to the slip or mooring. Use can be motoring for hours to get to a specific location at a specific time. Long term cruisers will use their engines for extended periods of time. Both must maintain their engines for their specific use. What puts more wear on an engine, short term bursts of use or long extended runs at peak temperature and operation.

I know that I would rather by a high mileage car that was used primarily for sustained highway driving versus a high mileage car used for short trips around town. Even though both cars may have the same mileage the engine run time and conditions are totally different. Can the same be said of the use of diesel or gas marine engines? Again use is a variable thing.

A thirty year old boat with gas engine or diesel engine is still a thirty year old boat. What will be the market price of that same boat be ten years hence? Then it will be a forty year old boat with a forty year old engine. If you put a new engine in a thirty year old boat, in ten years you will still have a forty year old boat. If the boat has been well maintained but the motor hasn't what is the value of that boat? Does it make a difference if that neglected engine is a diesel or gas?

Marketing. As long as the perception in the market is that a diesel is superior, for who knows what reason, then the boat with a poorly maintained diesel might sell faster. But, what is its value or reliability? Is it truly worth more than the same boat with a well maintained gas engine. To the informed buyer perhaps not. Those who believe the perception without real knowledge will be misled.

There is room in the good old boating world for both diesel and gas engines. Both have their pros and cons. If neither is well maintained they both are not worth snot no matter what the label says. Rant over. Al Frakes, Port Kent, NY

 

[frick]

Ditto on Reliability

11 Years ago the A-4 on your 1971 E 29 refused to turn over.
I pull the heads off and was astonished to see that the the a-4 looked better on the outside than in the inside. All the valve guides were rusted. It seems a sand pit in the head opened up and raw seas water was atomizing into several of the cylinders.

The cost of a total rebuild was about 1/2 cost of replacement. The deciding issue came down to reliability. With a new diesel I would get ten years or more of trouble free sailing.

It is now 11 years and I am still very very happy with the new Yanmar gm20F. Highly recommended! Besides that, I is GREAT on fuel economy and range... more than twice the time of the A-4.

My boat is more than 42 years old, and it is WAY cheaper to repower than to buy another boat. Beside it is in great shape, and sails better than many other new boats.

Rick+
Sailing the Great South Bay of Long Island and Beyond.

 

[Schoolboyheart]

11 Years ago the A-4 on your 1971 E 29 refused to turn over.
I pull the heads off and was astonished to see that the the a-4 looked better on the outside than in the inside. All the valve guides were rusted. It seems a sand pit in the head opened up and raw seas water was atomizing into several of the cylinders.

The cost of a total rebuild was about 1/2 cost of replacement. The deciding issue came down to reliability. With a new diesel I would get ten years or more of trouble free sailing.

It is now 11 years and I am still very very happy with the new Yanmar gm20F. Highly recommended! Besides that, I is GREAT on fuel economy and range... more than twice the time of the A-4.

My boat is more than 42 years old, and it is WAY cheaper to repower than to buy another boat. Beside it is in great shape, and sails better than many other new boats.

Rick+
Sailing the Great South Bay of Long Island and Beyond.

i think you hit it on head here. The main reason to go diesel is if you want the range and if cruising internationally it will be easier to refuel. I can run my boat for a whole week motoring a couple hours a day and still have a half tank. I think anyone who has been around boats long enough knows gas engines are fine with proper precaution. And I'd take a new gas over an old diesel if that was the option. If you have to put a new engine in might as well be a diesel though.

 

[Scott Abbott]

Update on A-4 removal and replacement



Wanted to post an update on where I am here... removed the engine yesterday at yard. I disconnected (with some help on getting the shaft coupling loose) and had yard pull with hoist to my truck bed. I have rebuild kit for water pump and carb, but need to figure out the rest of the seal failures. Still leaning toward swapping out for rebuild given time constraints. I am not missing a sailing season. Take a look at the top pic of thermostat location at block after removal. Tons on gunk.

Favor... taking a poll. If I was to go with a rebuild option... how many of you would go with a new block option for the extra $1,500 or so? Yikes.

 

[clp]

Depends on whether you're talking about a short block, or a machined block casting 15 hundred for a short block already torqued could be the way to go. But for just the casting? Unless something is grievously wrong with your block, you know, cracked cylinder wall, badly gouged, etc., stripping it, vatting it, decking, etc couldn't cost that much. That what I'm seeing in the hole is not 'alarming', and a decent motor shop will vat that thing to like new condition. You have to consider though reinstalling the casting plugs, but that's generally easy enough, I sure wouldn't leave the old ones in. I say casting plugs, they are commonly called 'freeze plugs', but they are not. Those caps are for the casting process that coincidently just happen to be the first part of the engine to blow out. Hopefully. Engine manufacturers could not care less if an owner didn't put coolant in the engine, those thin plugs are just the path of least resistance. Did your engine have a propensity to leak water from strange places, lost compression, general rattling sort of like a Ford will do? A fresh machined block might be the way to go. It would matter to me hugely what the new one entails. I would check the costs of vatting and machining before I made that decision.

 

[Rob Salinas]

Rebuild ?

What makes you so convinced a complete rebuild is in order? Maybe I missed something in an earlier thread. I rember you said you have 100+ in all cylinders, what is the oil pressure? Sounds like rings and valves are good, cooling passages prob need cleaned out. Pop off side covers, get a coat hanger or such, and clear out passages. Be advised a hot tank WILL require a complete tear down and rebuild. Does it sound like your shaking a coffee can full nuts and bolts when it's running? If your rear seal is indeed leaking, that alone does not warrant a complete tear down,IMO. Do you have water in the oil? Is it frozen solid? I'm sorry for all the ?s.I'm just trying to wrap my head around the reason you want start down that path. Heck If we lived closer I'd swap engines in a heartbeat. 150 hrs last year not a problem with cylinders in the low 90s. Sooo, unless the block is cracked, a rod is sticking out the side or you have water in places it shouldn't be,does not sound like you need a new block. I have seen a couple piles of rust that had an A-4 inside,pistons and valves frozen solid,cleaned up, rebuilt, and running like a top by people who had no mechanical experience. Take care of those silly little things that bolt on the outside and head out and enjoy. Don't forget paint, with the motor out and stripped down, now is the time to make it pretty too!Now the exhaust is another story, the motor is out, replace it all. Black iron pipe from plumbers supply store,MMI has everything else you'll need. stay away from plastic muffler, space available will determine which style to squeeze in.
Do you have any info on your dripless shaft seal? I see one in my very near future, possibly hauling out first week of the new year, shaft, seal,bearing and prop. Still trying to figure out what happened, what's going on, and what I need to do. Engine is Definitely staying in boat
In the end it is your boat, money, and time, do what you have to do for YOUR peace of mind.
Best of luck,

Rob

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Ever wonder ?

Ever wonder why all manufactures of new sailboats with inboard engines ever since the mid 1980's only install diesels? Lesson's learned?

 

[Scott Abbott]

Hear ya Jeff on the diesel... but pricing it out I come up with $12K ($8,346 for Beta 14, exhaust, & prop& substantial retrofitting) and the A-4 rebuilt motor is a pop in at $6530 new block option with far less retrofitting... hell, I could just pop a standard rebuilt in at for $4450 too. I would love the diesel... but that is a major price difference.

As for my A-4 Rob,
I could attempt to research further and learn to replace the rear seal. Looks like every seal is leaking to me... the thing is pretty rough looking. I was disheartened when I pulled thermostat and saw how badly the motor had been treated and apparently never flushed. It does have good compression as I mentioned. I am not set up here to store and rebuild an engine, but I could borrow a friends shop space for a week or two while I fixed the seals. I could order the water pump rebuild kit and go ahead and install the carb rebuild kit too. I don't have the rear seal kit replacement but I could order it (hopefully with some directions in the kit on how to). I haven't seen a 'how to' for rear seal yet from Moyer. I did order all three videos that covers the motor and systems. What I don't want to do now that I have the engine out, it so do it half way and then pay to have the engine re-hoisted into the boat... just to have to pull it out again in a year or two.

 

[Scott Abbott]

Depends on whether you're talking about a short block, or a machined block casting 15 hundred for a short block already torqued could be the way to go. But for just the casting? Unless something is grievously wrong with your block, you know, cracked cylinder wall, badly gouged, etc., stripping it, vatting it, decking, etc couldn't cost that much. That what I'm seeing in the hole is not 'alarming', and a decent motor shop will vat that thing to like new condition. You have to consider though reinstalling the casting plugs, but that's generally easy enough, I sure wouldn't leave the old ones in. I say casting plugs, they are commonly called 'freeze plugs', but they are not. Those caps are for the casting process that coincidently just happen to be the first part of the engine to blow out. Hopefully. Engine manufacturers could not care less if an owner didn't put coolant in the engine, those thin plugs are just the path of least resistance. Did your engine have a propensity to leak water from strange places, lost compression, general rattling sort of like a Ford will do? A fresh machined block might be the way to go. It would matter to me hugely what the new one entails. I would check the costs of vatting and machining before I made that decision.

Thanks for the feedback... I have never gone through the process of having a motor rebuilt. I was talking about the 'new block' option that Moyer Marine now offers as one of their rebuilt engine product offerings. My engine has good compression... I would like to get the engine sound enough to believe I was good to go for the next five years before I bother to put the engine back into the boat.

 

[Rob Salinas]

Hear you on that, put motor back in boat, Motor stays in boat, long time! By saving money by not cracking open the block think about the new MMI water pump, not too much more than rebuild kit , way better pump. The reversing gear housing does need to come off to do the seal, it can and has been done in the boat, deff easier with motor removed. The process is described over THERE in detail. Even if you have a pro do it for you, you will still be way ahead of the game $ wise. A senior member in the MMI fourm had a frozen piston when he bought his boat. He just knocked it out, honed the bore, new rings, and the motor is still running strong, 20 YEARS later! This is a very simple engine, it only needs 3 things, compression( you have ) spark (you have), fuel ( rebuild carb). The fuel pump in the pic is showing its age, THEY sell those too!

 

[Jeff Asbury]

To rebuild or not to rebuild.

Hear ya Jeff on the diesel... but pricing it out I come up with $12K ($8,346 for Beta 14, exhaust, & prop& substantial retrofitting) and the A-4 rebuilt motor is a pop in at $6530 new block option with far less retrofitting... hell, I could just pop a standard rebuilt in at for $4450 too. I would love the diesel... but that is a major price difference.

I completely understand about the $ Scott. Diesel's are not infallible as well. I had to have my little 8hp Yanmar 1GM10 rebuilt only two years after I purchased my boat, due to the fact that when the previous owner who re powered my 1973 E-27 with the Yanmar some time in the 1980's had failed to install a proper exhaust riser. As a result of that the engine had been back filling the the cylinder with salt water until the valves rusted clean through, not to mention the head and mixing elbow corroding. At that point I was faced with a choice, about $6,500.00 + for a new replacement Yanmar (that was 2004 price), or the cost of a Yanmar service shop to rebuild for $2,800.00. Of course I wen't with the latter.

The main reason I was not a fan of the gas powered A-4's was that my Father bought a brand new Islander 33 in 1966, with a brand new A-4 and he had problems from the get go with that engine. He just to used to cuss at that thing until he was blue in the face. Dad's next boat, after all us kids moved out was a 1975 Bayfield 25 with a brand new Yanmar YSM8. That engine was incredibly reliable, and although it was raw water cooled, it spent most probably 15 of the 18 years my Dad owned it in fresh water on Lake Washington, where we had access to the Locks and Puget Sound, where we relied on that engine a lot on windless passages to the San Juan's and beyond.

When it was time to search for my first real sailboat (not my Macgregor I owned for 2 years), but a real sailboat that I could be comfortable sailing offshore, my Father helped me shop. He really steered me clear of boats with A-4's, although I came close to deciding on a Tartan 30 or a Cal 29 that both had A-4's. Most of the boats that I looked at in my price range had A-4's in them, but the engines were always covered in rust, even the Tartan & the Cal. I finally found my current E-27 that was located all the way down in San Diego, a considerable distance from where I needed to keep my boat in the LA Harbor area. One of the major selling points was the Yanmar, although the boat needed a lot of other things, such as new standing rigging and sails. When we attempted to do a Sea Trial on both the Tartan and the Cal with the A-4's, the engines would not start, much to the disappointment of the Brokers of course. The Yanmar started on the first push of the starter button.

Maybe I am old fashioned but I always listen to my Father. He would have given me the "I told you so" if I had ever settled for less that a Yanmar. One other note, the mechanic that assisted me in the rebuild has repeatedly told me that A-4's belong in Jeeps, not boats. I know I will proably get some flack for that statement, but he has been a marine mechanic for 35 years and works on both gas and diesel.

Sorry about what you are facing Scott, been there and done that. Hopefully you will end up with a reliable rebuild. It's a boat, "a hole in the water, blah blah blah". I know that all too well.

You could try bidding on this baby. $3,500. reserve:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yanmar-1Gm-...-Rebuilt-/131072737905?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

 

[Scott Abbott]

and the winner is.... new block A-4. These things are bomb proof.

And, I think it is really neat that this engine is original to the boat period. Oh, and I saved about $3000 in upfits from what I figure. I will keep you posted on the decision to go with the A-4. I have been really happy with dealing with Moyer too. I drove 5 hours from Charlottesville, VA to Kinzer, PA to pick up the motor and drop off the old at the machine shop there. The shop is located in the heart of Amish country. Really neat trip. Guys that build these motors tell me they produce and sell 60 a year... every year. A lot of others are staying loyal to the A-4 too.

Thanks all... really appreciate all the feed back. Hopefully others will see my posts and help them decide if an A-4 is a good idea for them.

For what it is worth... the 38 year old raw water cooled A-4 I pulled out of my boat still ran. This is crazy because the P.O. was most probably the worst P.O. you could have. The thing still ran for the last two years until it finally crapped out. I pulled the water jacket plate and decided I would let another try and rebuild... Oh, and I can work on this thing when the time comes!

 

[Lucky Dog]

That is very cool engine. Long live the A4!
ml