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Alternatives to cotter pins in turnbuckles
- Thread starter Christian Williams
- Start date
Ian S
Member III
I admit that I did not read all the replies, but I as usual will add my $.02
The cotter pin IS supposed to keep the turnbuckle from rotating (and they will rotate ) typically when slightly slack on leeward. Just set your turnbuckles mid way between the pins and go look at them after a few weeks of sailing and you will see most likely the turnbuckle body will be tight against the pin where it has rotated. The usual problem is that if you use the proper dia. pin (maximum size that will fit) the head is large enough to keep the body from rotating but the legs are so long that they become an issue. all this really depends on the size of the turnbuckle body and manufactures differ even for the same size fitting. You just have to find the right pins or cut what you have. A 3/32 x 1" is not always an easy pin to find as the larger the dia. the longer the pin tends to be, but they are made in every conceivable configuration. In regards to safety wire technique single / double wrap etc. This is a pain in the ass and I would reserve this for a boat I was using for serious off shore work as opposed to a costal cruiser. Tin kicker is right on the money and the ultimate solution is safety wire. Of note too is the best place to buy quality safety wire is an aviation supplier such as aircraft spruce. Also IMO the single wrap, image (D) is generally sufficient.
Last note of upmost importance. NEVER NEVER EVER USE SPLIT RINGS! They belong on your ignition key and that's about it. I can personally attest to at least two rigs lost from the use of split rings. I can hear the pushback now. On a turnbuckle go ahead and take your chances but on a rigging pin it's foolish! Even when taped I don't like them because the time will come when the tape delaminates or falls off. Everyone inspecting their rigging tape every time before they go out? I doubt it. I really need to post a video on how easily a sheet can catch and pull out a split ring and one would never even notice! They peel out so easily that even when line is retrieved by hand you probably would not notice! I have demonstrated this to many clients over the years and their jaws drop. Just barb the line and pull, the ring peels out with ease. I may possibly consider their use in conjunction with a high quality amalgamating tape but what's the point? just use cotter pins as indicated and please replace old bent ones, their cheap!
Capt. Ian
The cotter pin IS supposed to keep the turnbuckle from rotating (and they will rotate ) typically when slightly slack on leeward. Just set your turnbuckles mid way between the pins and go look at them after a few weeks of sailing and you will see most likely the turnbuckle body will be tight against the pin where it has rotated. The usual problem is that if you use the proper dia. pin (maximum size that will fit) the head is large enough to keep the body from rotating but the legs are so long that they become an issue. all this really depends on the size of the turnbuckle body and manufactures differ even for the same size fitting. You just have to find the right pins or cut what you have. A 3/32 x 1" is not always an easy pin to find as the larger the dia. the longer the pin tends to be, but they are made in every conceivable configuration. In regards to safety wire technique single / double wrap etc. This is a pain in the ass and I would reserve this for a boat I was using for serious off shore work as opposed to a costal cruiser. Tin kicker is right on the money and the ultimate solution is safety wire. Of note too is the best place to buy quality safety wire is an aviation supplier such as aircraft spruce. Also IMO the single wrap, image (D) is generally sufficient.
Last note of upmost importance. NEVER NEVER EVER USE SPLIT RINGS! They belong on your ignition key and that's about it. I can personally attest to at least two rigs lost from the use of split rings. I can hear the pushback now. On a turnbuckle go ahead and take your chances but on a rigging pin it's foolish! Even when taped I don't like them because the time will come when the tape delaminates or falls off. Everyone inspecting their rigging tape every time before they go out? I doubt it. I really need to post a video on how easily a sheet can catch and pull out a split ring and one would never even notice! They peel out so easily that even when line is retrieved by hand you probably would not notice! I have demonstrated this to many clients over the years and their jaws drop. Just barb the line and pull, the ring peels out with ease. I may possibly consider their use in conjunction with a high quality amalgamating tape but what's the point? just use cotter pins as indicated and please replace old bent ones, their cheap!
Capt. Ian
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I can personally attest to at least two rigs lost from the use of split rings. I can hear the pushback now.
Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Ian S
Member III
I must say that response put my britches into a tight knot. Now instead of responding as I was initially inclined; such as using wise remarks in kind, or employing anatomical references analogous to ones character I calmed down a bit and tried not to take it so personally.
Christian, I have worked in the past as a professional rigger and have rigged and worked on hundreds of boats!
When I say attest to, I mean that I personally saw the damage and that the events were disseminated to me by either the skipper or crew member.
The pushback I referred too, is all those who say "I use split rings and there's nothing wrong with em"
You should be interested to know that one of the boats I'm referring to was a mid eighties Ericson 38 that had split rings in all her lower pins. They were racing at the time. The boat had apparently lost the pin on the leeward cap shroud whilst close hauled. I'm guessing it was just barley hanging in there so the shroud was not flailing around and no one noticed. They tacked over in high wind and immediately after tacking the load (now unsupported) bent and ruined the upper section of the spar above the intermediates. The lowers and intermediates were intact so they only bent the upper section. The mast was junk! It did not break but it had serous wrinkling and was buckled. They were lucky to have not had the upper section break and likely bring the rest of the rig down. They were also smart enough to ease off the backstay and somehow get the jib rolled in. I believe it was the shock of the headsail more than the main that precipitated the bend. I would say the mast was bent about 10 or 15 degrees maybe more?
For those who don't like my advise, don't use it! No skin off my nose. just know that my intension is to be helpful, give good knowledgeable information, and promote good seamanship. Half assed approaches and just good enough solutions are NOT indicative of good seamanship. Thats my opinion, unless I'm no longer entitled to it here.
Respectfully, Capt. Ian
100T USCG Licensed master
Christian, I have worked in the past as a professional rigger and have rigged and worked on hundreds of boats!
When I say attest to, I mean that I personally saw the damage and that the events were disseminated to me by either the skipper or crew member.
The pushback I referred too, is all those who say "I use split rings and there's nothing wrong with em"
You should be interested to know that one of the boats I'm referring to was a mid eighties Ericson 38 that had split rings in all her lower pins. They were racing at the time. The boat had apparently lost the pin on the leeward cap shroud whilst close hauled. I'm guessing it was just barley hanging in there so the shroud was not flailing around and no one noticed. They tacked over in high wind and immediately after tacking the load (now unsupported) bent and ruined the upper section of the spar above the intermediates. The lowers and intermediates were intact so they only bent the upper section. The mast was junk! It did not break but it had serous wrinkling and was buckled. They were lucky to have not had the upper section break and likely bring the rest of the rig down. They were also smart enough to ease off the backstay and somehow get the jib rolled in. I believe it was the shock of the headsail more than the main that precipitated the bend. I would say the mast was bent about 10 or 15 degrees maybe more?
For those who don't like my advise, don't use it! No skin off my nose. just know that my intension is to be helpful, give good knowledgeable information, and promote good seamanship. Half assed approaches and just good enough solutions are NOT indicative of good seamanship. Thats my opinion, unless I'm no longer entitled to it here.
Respectfully, Capt. Ian
100T USCG Licensed master
Everyone, Keep Clam
As Jimmy Buffett once said about recovering from the Hurricane, "Breath in, breath out, move on"....
Most of the solutions used have plusses and minuses. Some are safer than others. There are 'best practice' methods. Even split pins have ways that they should and should not be used.
I still use a large 'ring ding' on the the turnbuckle for our backstay. Given their known limitations I would not use one on a shroud, or in very many other places.
And I have indeed seen one get straightened out by being caught on a piece of running rigging elsewhere on the boat, so I learned to be vary careful about using them.
Aside: in our trailerable sailboat days, we would sometimes use a clevis with a quick release ball detent. Nothing I want for a larger boat, but pretty slick.... albeit costly in comparison.
As Jimmy Buffett once said about recovering from the Hurricane, "Breath in, breath out, move on"....
Most of the solutions used have plusses and minuses. Some are safer than others. There are 'best practice' methods. Even split pins have ways that they should and should not be used.
I still use a large 'ring ding' on the the turnbuckle for our backstay. Given their known limitations I would not use one on a shroud, or in very many other places.
And I have indeed seen one get straightened out by being caught on a piece of running rigging elsewhere on the boat, so I learned to be vary careful about using them.
Aside: in our trailerable sailboat days, we would sometimes use a clevis with a quick release ball detent. Nothing I want for a larger boat, but pretty slick.... albeit costly in comparison.
My response was hmmm. I don't think "half-assed approaches" accurately sums up our forum discussions.
Parrothead
Member III
Christian, I gotta say I use cotter pins exclusively (no way would I ever use a split ring) and my turnbuckles cannot rotate, it is physically impossible. Drawing of the technique I use is attached.
Attachments
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Cotter pin 2.jpg
Ian S - Thank a lot for that point about the split rings. You know, it *never* would have occurred to me that a sheet would grab one and pull it straight out, but now that you mentioned it, it is actually pretty darn obvious. This is the type of thing that makes me keep coming back to this site! A lifetime of sailing and nearly every time I come here I learn something new.
I talked to my rigger this weekend and he said "no.. never ever use split rings on your rig". He prefers the velcro-strap pins, or cotters. He would use the bolt-and-nut method but only with nylocs, with the important addition of "always use new nuts when replacing, because the nylon lock gets banged up with repeated pushing against the turnbuckle body". Also mentioned the bolts are a pain because they're easy to lose on the deck and if you lose one its a trip to the store vs. into the bag for pin.
I talked to my rigger this weekend and he said "no.. never ever use split rings on your rig". He prefers the velcro-strap pins, or cotters. He would use the bolt-and-nut method but only with nylocs, with the important addition of "always use new nuts when replacing, because the nylon lock gets banged up with repeated pushing against the turnbuckle body". Also mentioned the bolts are a pain because they're easy to lose on the deck and if you lose one its a trip to the store vs. into the bag for pin.
Glad this isn't sailinganarchy.
Grizz
Grizz
Rig Tuning and Web Pins: The Evolution
2¢ added to the turnbuckle discussion...
The Web Pin option fits perfectly with how we sail & race this Olson34. Each spring the mast is stepped, plumbed for in-column true, with a Loos Gauge confirming shroud tension on upper and lower shrouds* are equal, which we call 'Base Line Numbers', which are kept under lock and key (not really, but kinda).
From this point forward, throughout the season, we'll spend @ 30-minutes before each race to retune the rig, either from 'stiff' to 'soft', depending upon the predicted conditions for that day. There's small whiteboard by the Nav station that lists what the rig tension is, mostly so it's not left to the whim of accurate memory. For Distance Races, especially Long Distance marathons, we tend to err on the stiff side, as we're not allowed to retune once we start.
The Web Pins make this retuning procedure far easier and eliminates the presence of 'snaggers' at the turnbuckles that are never good.
*the diagonal intermediates are tested with a hand tug at the dock, with just a bit of tension deemed to be 'good enough' (i.e. - loose), so that the offwind side while under sail is very slack, inducing a bit of belly to the main. At least that's been the thinking...
2¢ added to the turnbuckle discussion...
The Web Pin option fits perfectly with how we sail & race this Olson34. Each spring the mast is stepped, plumbed for in-column true, with a Loos Gauge confirming shroud tension on upper and lower shrouds* are equal, which we call 'Base Line Numbers', which are kept under lock and key (not really, but kinda).
From this point forward, throughout the season, we'll spend @ 30-minutes before each race to retune the rig, either from 'stiff' to 'soft', depending upon the predicted conditions for that day. There's small whiteboard by the Nav station that lists what the rig tension is, mostly so it's not left to the whim of accurate memory. For Distance Races, especially Long Distance marathons, we tend to err on the stiff side, as we're not allowed to retune once we start.
The Web Pins make this retuning procedure far easier and eliminates the presence of 'snaggers' at the turnbuckles that are never good.
*the diagonal intermediates are tested with a hand tug at the dock, with just a bit of tension deemed to be 'good enough' (i.e. - loose), so that the offwind side while under sail is very slack, inducing a bit of belly to the main. At least that's been the thinking...
Attachments
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WebStrapPins.JPG
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Funny......
For whatever it's worth, I agree with this. There's no way I'd use a split-ring on a pin, or on a turnbuckle I can't visually inspect (eg, the headstay turnbuckle, which is inside the torsion-tube portion of the furler).
I do feel comfortable using split-rings in other places, recognizing that there *is* the potential that an errant line will grab an end and unwind it. The difference for me is, on a rigging pin, if the split ring comes out the pin comes out and the rig falls down. On a turnbuckle, if the ring comes out the turnbuckle *might* rotate, but even if it does, it's not an instant-and-catastrophic failure. In past years (both racing, and as a professional rigger) I've used monel seizing wire, zip ties and other (similar) approaches for securing turnbuckle bodies on boats where the rig needs to be adjusted frequently. The rings have (for me) have turned out to be the best combination of security, snag-resistance and easy removal without tools for mast-tuning.
I have split rings in the turnbuckles for my shrouds, both sides, and the turnbuckle for the backstay. The turnbuckle for the upper on each side is protected by one of those Nicro-Fico shroud-roller things. No way a line can snag on those rings. The others (intermediates, lowers and backstay) I visually check - literally - every time the boat leaves the dock. In past years I'd wrap rigging tape around the rings to make sure they couldn't snag a line but, these days, I'm more interested in being able to see them.
Haven't had a problem yet, but I'm confident that if a ring does come out, I'll see it long before the turnbuckle un-winds enough to be an issue.
YMMV (and, I do like those velcro things. Might very well get a handful of those to give them a try)
Bruce
I honestly hadn't thought much about the turnbuckles, was previously just noting how safety wire is used in aviation, the potential injury hazard, and what a pain it is to make quick changes to. The boat came with split rings on the safety lines and pins on the rigging, covered with tape that is in bad shape.
I'd planned to simply replace the tape, but now think I might replace it with small velcro wraps, as they will be easier to take off for quick checks or adjustments and less likely for snags. Will cover the rings, too.
Learning a lot from you all so thanks!
I'd planned to simply replace the tape, but now think I might replace it with small velcro wraps, as they will be easier to take off for quick checks or adjustments and less likely for snags. Will cover the rings, too.
Learning a lot from you all so thanks!
Pinning the turnbuckles was the last step in my re-rig project. I used Brion Toss's method and thought it would be helpful for others to see it, so I was going to create a new post, but found this one. Loren beat me to it and summarized it in post #8.
I think the welding rod is a much better solution and keeps all the sharp edges of cotter pins or split rings inside the body of the turnbuckle. We sailed all summer with the turnbuckles unpinned to allow for quick tunning as the rig settled. I ended up not seeing any stretch or need to adjust the rig after the initial dock tune (a more discerning owner may have tweaked it more). As I was installing the last welding rod, I noticed the cotter pin for the toggle of the after lower on the port side was never set. Thankfully it was placed with the head on top, so gravity kept it in place. Lesson learned, always preform a thorough rig check even if the rig is brand new. That could have been a disaster.
I think the welding rod is a much better solution and keeps all the sharp edges of cotter pins or split rings inside the body of the turnbuckle. We sailed all summer with the turnbuckles unpinned to allow for quick tunning as the rig settled. I ended up not seeing any stretch or need to adjust the rig after the initial dock tune (a more discerning owner may have tweaked it more). As I was installing the last welding rod, I noticed the cotter pin for the toggle of the after lower on the port side was never set. Thankfully it was placed with the head on top, so gravity kept it in place. Lesson learned, always preform a thorough rig check even if the rig is brand new. That could have been a disaster.
Same "pinning" that the rigger did on our new rig in 2021. Brion Toss used to recommend it, also.
A special welding rod? Google AI summary says they rust.
Of course, Google AI also said it wanted to get to know me better and if free for dinner sometime would like to continue the conversation, and knew my current gin is Hendricks.
Yes, welding rods can rust, but this refers to the steel core of the rod or the bare ends exposed to the air, not the flux coating itself. Rust on a welding rod is a sign of moisture exposure, which can negatively affect the welding process by introducing hydrogen into the weld and causing defects. While a little surface rust can be removed with sandpaper, widespread rust, especially on low-hydrogen rods, indicates moisture damage and makes the rod unusable for critical applications.
Of course, Google AI also said it wanted to get to know me better and if free for dinner sometime would like to continue the conversation, and knew my current gin is Hendricks.
Yes, welding rods can rust, but this refers to the steel core of the rod or the bare ends exposed to the air, not the flux coating itself. Rust on a welding rod is a sign of moisture exposure, which can negatively affect the welding process by introducing hydrogen into the weld and causing defects. While a little surface rust can be removed with sandpaper, widespread rust, especially on low-hydrogen rods, indicates moisture damage and makes the rod unusable for critical applications.
I was concerned as well, so I googled it and found the same thread on the Brion Toss spar talk forum that Loren referenced above. Brion recommended 3/32" Silicon bronze TIG rods. I thought they would be difficult to find, but my local welding shop knew exactly what I was talking about and grabbed a pack off the shelf. I think this is the one:
store.cyberweld.com
1lb is more than enough. There's a lot of rods in the pack and I only used 1 1/2 for all my turnbuckles. They cut and bend easily, so it's a fairly painless process.
Washington Alloy Silicon Bronze 3/32 TIG Welding Wire 1# TM SB/05
Washington Alloy® Silicon Bronze 3/32 Diameter ERCuSi-A TIG Welding Wire 1 lb. Mini Pack TM-SB/051 lb. tube 36 inch lengths - Washington Alloy® 3/32 diameter Silicon Bronze TIG welding wire is a copper-based alloy containing about 3% silicon and may have small percentages of manganese, tin, and...
store.cyberweld.com
1lb is more than enough. There's a lot of rods in the pack and I only used 1 1/2 for all my turnbuckles. They cut and bend easily, so it's a fairly painless process.
peaman
Contributing Partner
That was my thought. So I took the split rings out of a lifeline turnbuckle and replaced it with a piece of seizing wire (19 gauge) and tried to loosen the turnbuckle. In order to fail, there needs to be enough twisting force to either pull the wire out from the stud ends, or enough to break the wire. I like the method and will plan to get some silicone bronze rods.