Anchoring Technique

[celtium]

Maybe an interesting question, maybe a dumb question but I fear not...

I have owned 3 Ericson's now, including my current E38-200. My previous ones were an E27 & E35 MKII. Both went head to wind, drop hook, back down, blah blah.

Now my 38 is a different story. Last Friday I was showing my girlfriend how to drive the boat under power, wind was 20 knots or so. I brought the vessel head to wind, down to 0 knots, placed in reverse and the bow blew off every time, hmmm, this might make for some interesting anchoring.

Then I tried the same thing allowing the bow to blow off starboard beam to wind, figuring that would be the way to go as the reverse prop walk would draw me to port for a 'no foul' anchor.

Is that about right? I'm sure that 'milk pond' anchoring is no problemo, but in any kind of a real wind situation it appears you will have a different technique?

Thanks - Jay
Celtica
E38-200, SF Bay

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Hi,
I have an E-27. If there's room, and the wind is blowing like you get in SF Bay, I usually get the boat going downwind with no power. I drop the hook downwind. In my experience, it has worked every time. I have a couple of fathoms of heavy chain hooked up to a Fortress, and nylon after that. I live in Florida and the bottoms are sand and mud.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[celtium]

Hi Morgan,

You've never had a problem with it hanging up at the rudder or keel?

Jay

 

[treilley]

I have the same problem with my 35-3. There is definately a technique. Below 20 kts, I can usually coax it back straight without too much trouble. With it blowing hard, I can get it to go back on more of a diagonal and then cleat the rode. When the boat straightens out, I set the anchor by reversing while cleated. I then release the rode and repeat. I will usually let out more scope than I need to give the anchor one last set and then take some in according to my swing room.

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Jay,
In a word, no. No hangups on keel of rudder. My boat has an outboard, so I am much more inclined to sail the boat to the dock and also set the anchor and get it up under sail. I am risk adverse, to be sure, but I have had this boat for 30+ years, so we are old friends.
There was a time--a long time back--when I had anchored the boat in a slack tide for swimming and that kind of stuff. By the time I was ready to leave, the boat had fetched up against its own anchor rode and was pinned there by the tidal current. I went through a lot of permutations of Lloyd Bridges crap, diving into the water with a knife between my teeth and other showy stuff. Bar tight, the anchor line led aft, and the boat was hard against it. I didn't have a clue. Didn't want to lose the anchor by cutting the rode.
Finally, an eight-year-old girl on board said that it would be nice if the anchor line would float, and I realized it would. I hauled all the rode up on deck, tied a fender to the bitter end and threw everything over the side. Then I started the engine and came back and picked up the fender, to which my anchor and line were attached. Bingo! Eight-year-old girl saves Lloyd Bridges wannabe from further embarrassment.
Morgan

 

[u079721]

When we anchored our 1989 E38-200, if there was any kind of wind, I generally just played out the line by hand and let the wind blow us astern, keeping the bow head to wind with tension on the line. If I was in a hurry I would have my wife give the boat a big burst of reverse just after I dropped the hook, but then go back to neutral, as there was no way to keep the bow to windward otherwise. If there were no wind we would power back, but then it usually wasn't a problem to control the boat. Once we were at full scope I would cleat the line, and we would power down on the anchor with maybe half throttle (full reverse was too much with a Max Prop). If I could tell we were holding by the feel of the line that was it, time for drinks. Worked for us (over 300 nights at anchor, with not one dragging incident).

So I agree what you are doing is a problem, but I also don't see the real need to power back while anchoring. If you do want to speed things up, wait till the boat is lined up the way you want, and just use a burst of reverse.

 

[celtium]

However, I noticed that the boat would blow off to a 'beam to the sea' position and just sit there at 0 knots. I found that very interesting. Almost like being hove too (sp?) considering there was 20 knots of wind. Made me wonder if I could drop the hook from that position with starboard to windward, then back down as the prop walk and rode would force me to port and into a straight back attitude.

Now I may be over thinking this and I may need to experiment this weekend, but I think there may be something here, plus have a little sailing intellectual exchange with a little midweek musing and respite from a post holiday weekend.

At the very least you guys have confirmed my suspicion!

Jay

 

[treilley]

Check for current. When boats turn a beam to the wind, it is usually because the current is going opposite. Or you have snagged a lobster pot

 

[Shadowfax]

I agree with treilley. If you are directly into the wind then the wind should be pretty much a neutral factor. I too would suspect tide or current. What we usually do is head up into the wind, drop the hook, go into neutral, pay out about half the line we are going to use and let the anchor set. After it sets we let out the balance and when it comes up taunt we give it a shot of engine in reverse, just to make sure it is set and let nature take its course from there.

 

[u079721]

I agree with treilley. If you are directly into the wind then the wind should be pretty much a neutral factor. I too would suspect tide or current. What we usually do is head up into the wind, drop the hook, go into neutral, pay out about half the line we are going to use and let the anchor set. After it sets we let out the balance and when it comes up taunt we give it a shot of engine in reverse, just to make sure it is set and let nature take its course from there.

I would say it's just another manifestation of the factors that cause the boat to horse around while anchored. The wind is slightly off to one side, and the bow falls off because the underwater center of resistance does not match the above water center of windage. The same effect causes the 38 to behave quite poorly at anchor, which is why we always used an anchor sail.

 

[CWM]

Morgan:

How did you run the anchor rode off the bow on your E27?

TIA

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

TIA:

Am not sure which time you are asking about. In a regular anchoring maneuver, I just pay it out hand over hand, and when I think I have enough line out I put some round turns on a bow cleat and see how the boat responds. If I am being blown downwind, I just do it a little faster, because the boat is moving. Normally, I judge the correct amount of scope by the angle, 15-20 degrees.

When I was freeing the boat from a rode the boat had fetched up against, I got the line loose and just threw everything over the side. Then I came back and picked up the fender under power.

Hope this answers your question.

Morgan

 

[Captron]

Backing down

When we anchor, the wife drives the boat and I put my 'armstrong' windlass to our chain and Bruce. Once the boat is in position to drop the hook, I'll signal for some reverse to stop the boat (if needed) and start it going downwind (or current). She almost never gets the boat going straight astern; the bow just about always falls off one way or the other (breezy or not). I'll then signal for neutral and just control the boat from the bow. In really strong wind, I'll signal for forward sometimes but just enough to slow down the astern movement. If you move too fast the anchor won't set properly.

I find that gentle tugs on the anchor rode helps to keep the bow more or less into the wind and helps to settle the anchor in line with the rode and boat. It also gets the anchor started digging in. Once I have sufficient scope out and the boat swings back into alignment with the rode, I signal for reverse (idle speed) and if I can't feel the anchor dragging (once the chain is straight) I'll signal for more power to firmly dig in the hook. By the way, manhandling the rode calls for sturdy gloves. I generally wear out two or three pairs of leather palmed work gloves each season.

We employ this technique all the time even in crowded anchorages. The bow swinging off is not usually a problem as the chain paying out tends to keep the boat in line as it drifts astern even though the hull alignment can be almost sideways to the direction of travel until I tug on the rode.

I've also noticed that in our cruising grounds (Bahamas generally) very few boats back straight when anchoring a slow speeds. Our 38 backs straight just fine under power provided that I anticipate what the wind is going to do to the bow. With our feathering prop we get no prop-walk at all.

We once caught Kismet's keel on the anchor rode (inside French Wells) when we were trying to haul up two anchors that we had deployed in a Bahamian Moor. We got the first hook up but the second rode wrapped around behind the keel. The 5/8 nylon line actually cut into the aft edge of the keel folding over a 1x1 inch square of lead. Somehow we managed to power off and get the anchor up. We nearly missed the tide we needed to get over the bar at the entrance. (I'll keep Morgan's buoy technique in mind from now on though)

Later I managed to bend the flap of lead back into place more or less. Ever tried using a hammer under water? I repaired it the next bottom job.

:redface:

 

[celtium]

Interesting...

It seems the E38 has some interesting characteristics? Wonder if that is true of this whole 'generation' of Bruce's designs, the MKIII's i.e 26, 35 & 38, were there more in this vintage?

But the bow blowing off seems to be a tendency to be delt with.

Jay
E-38, Celtica

 

[Rocinante33]

Don't Blame Bruce....

Our 33 is a Ron Holland design, and it has such a huge tendency to sail at anchor, that I am sure that it is common to many fin keeled boats. Ours has a significant characteristic, also. The bow roller is 1) off center, and 2) angled. I think these contribute to the sailing at anchor. I will try to use a bridle on the anchor rode to combat this tendancy.

 

[celtium]

No blasphemy intended

First of all, let me unequivically state for the record that in no way shape or form am I blaming Bruce , when I started to sail, after my first boat - a Potter 19, I've stayed with Bruce through 3 boats.

That being said, perhaps it's more accurate to suggest that this is a tendency of lighter boats in general? I can only imagine how this tendency occurs with higher freeboard boats than with ours, i.e., the newer design production boats i.e. Hunter, Catilina, Bene's etc.

I think a lot of, if not most boats tend to sail at anchor thus the popularity of the riding sail, in fact I just bought one from Sailrite, should be here any day actually.

The more interesting 'phenomenon' is the inability of the vessel to stay bow to wind as you let out the rode while setting anchor. Keith, do you note this tendency?

Jay
E38, Celtica

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Guys,
This sort of a rhetorical question, but don't fin keel boats have a propensity for falling off on the wind when they are very slow? If that's so, then let us not piss into the wind ourselves.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[Rocinante33]

Guys,
let us not piss into the wind ourselves.
Morgan Stinemetz

LOL. So be it!

Jay, I knew you weren't really blaming Bruce. I said that tongue in cheek. My boat doesn't stay bow to the wind, but it strongly "hunts", or sails back and forth on the rode, once the hook is set. It is very worrisome in a breezy anchorage because the bow pulls up very strongly as it reaches the end of its' swing and begins the swing in the opposite direction.

When initially setting the hook, We are slowing to a stop into the wind . The hook is dropped to the bottom, then eased as the boat falls off. The nose can be kept into the wind by easing the rode slowly (as has been mentioned by others). Then, as adequate scope is achieved, set the hook by reversing (at just a bit more throttle than idle). That is when the "sailing on the anchor" begins.

Morgan, I still can't see dropping the anchor while heading downwind, if I read you right. My boat would take off, especially with the dodger up as it usually is in an anchorage.

 

[rwthomas1]

I have not noticed any tendencies that I would consider "wierd" but then again I have never sailed/anchored a full-keel boat. Like others have stated, we pull up to where we want to drop the hook and then I pay out enough scope to allow the anchor to hit bottom plus a few feet. The boat responds to this by falling in line behind the drag of the anchor. I then continue to let out scope as the boat falls back on the wind, keeping enough drag on the rode, the boat stays head up. When the required scope is payed out, I cleat it off and let it set. When I think its dug in we then back down to check the holding. I do not anchor off the bow roller but use one of the bow cleats. The boat does sail about a bit at anchor but only in certain wind conditions. I am considering a riding sail. RT

 

[Loren Beach]

As fin keels became more common in the 70's and onwards, freeboard increased to allow more interior room. Much/most of the hull surface of the modern sailboat is above the DWL. Lots of area for the wind to press against.
My previous Niagara would sail around some at anchor, and so would our first 20 foot boat.

Check out this thread for more info on the problem and some solutions.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=2580&highlight=anchor

Loren