And still more about prop walk 1974 E32-2

[SteveL]

Greetings to all. I recently reclaimed my 74 E32-2 after a 6 year hiatus. It's great to have her back, but apparently the prop walk has not mellowed with with age.

Folks who don't have this particular model have a hard time appreciating how much of a pain in the keester this problem is on this boat. Actually, I consider it dangerous, especially if you're traveling to unfamiliar marinas with challenging winds and currents. I've been on a number of boats, but have seen nothing to compare to this. Everyone always says, "Oh, all sailboats walk in reverse!" until I hand them the wheel.

I have replaced the rudder based on a conversation with Moss Foam -don't recall which one it was now - and I also took the plunge for a 12" 3-blade Max-prop. The promise that it would fix the prop walk "for sure" was empty. I wander to port as much as ever.

There isn't room for a 15" blade under the hull. However there are two options.
1. PYI Inc. can build up the blades for about $500, so one can have a 13.5" wheel or whatever the geometry will bear.
2. I was thinking of a more extreme solution: grinding off some of the hull to admit a bigger folding prop. I don't have a pix right here, but the shape of the hull directly above the prop looks like it might tolerate modification.

Has anyone tried this? Has anyone heard of anyone doing this? I'm underpowered now. Can do 4000 rpm with my Yamaha 21 hp. So I could do with a bigger prop...

Nice to be back.

Steve
Starving Buddha

 

[DynamicDave]

50% reduction in reverse prop walk with....

the Indigo fixed 3 blade I installed late last year. $325, and lovin' it. Same results on friends Newport 27. Both outstanding. My 2 blade max prop was worse than bad. A4 powered I'll admit, but the Indigo has been my salvation. I can run 5 kts at 2000 rpm, stop forward throttle, shift to reverse, apply 20% throttle and stop the boat in about 4-5 lengths w/o changing heading! It's only 10" wide. Bigger isn't always better. Now I've an excellent classic 3/4"hub Maxie for sale. 76 E32-2 in PDX

 

[Bolo]

Take advantage of prop walk

Our E32-3 has prop walk also in reverse but I've learned to take advantage of it. After a day of sailing I always back our boat down the fairway to it's slip. A distance of about 6 or 7 boats. When I position myself to shift into reverse I angle the boat about 10 or 15 degrees from off center from the fairway. I then get on the other side of the wheel so that I'm facing the stern, shift into reverse and then goose the engine for about two seconds. The prop walk swings the stern to port and then after I pull back on the throttle I go straight down the fairway. Other times when I'm pulling up to a fuel/pump out dock on the port side I have my "1st mate" tie a dock line off to the middle cleat and then I drop into reverse and goose the engine to swing the stern into the dock.

Yes, the prop walk is a pain sometimes but there are a lot of times where it actually comes in handy. I'm just saying'.

 

[SteveL]

Thank you both for your comments.

DynamicDave, I replaced the 3-blade fixed because the prop walk was unmanageable, with a stop to have it repitched en route. Hard to believe that one brand of prop makes such a difference. Maybe the stern tube is slightly off or something. I dunno. I agree that being able to shift back and forth between forward & reverse quickly (without worrying about running the prop) is a real advantage.

Bob, I have learned to live with the prop walk: to a point. But getting to the fuel dock starboard-to in a crowded fairway while running with the current, well, there are times when being able to slow down is quite a handy thing! As things stand now, even a whiff of reverse and the stern will pull me away from the dock. I have the sense that the 32-2 & 32-3 are quite different in this regard. But then I'm just guessing.

 

[Mark F]

Hi Steve,

I know that some Ericsons have offset prop shafts. Was your boat repowered? I wonder if you have an offset shaft for the the opposite prop rotation? I'm assuming the direction of the offset was matched to the power-plant. Does anyone know?

 

[Martin King]

First of all, the 32-2 and 32-3 are very different boats and not really comparable in this instance. Early IOR influenced Ericsons
are notorious for really bad propwalk depending on how they are set up. As an example, my old 39 came with a truly awful
Paragon direct drive trans driving a tiny 12 inch bow tie of a prop. Upon hitting reverse and revving up, the boat would spin dizzily
through 90 degrees before finally backing up. Backing up being a loose term as the stern would wander all over the place and
seemed to have a mind of it's own. This was solved during the repower by getting the prop further aft and going to a 15" 3 blade
Max prop. With a 2 to 1 reduction gear driving a reversing prop with the requisite blade area, the boats behaviour was vastly
improved. Not perfect, but night and day.

You need a wheel with more diameter/blade area. Before I did something drastic like hacking clearance notches in the hull, I would
explore moving the prop and/or strut first.

 

[Cory B]

We used to have a 1975 E32 with an A4. We ended up with a 12 inch 2 blade maxprop. But I think the real trick for us with the boat was to goose the throttle when initially going in reverse, and then pull it back some. With the 2:1 reduction gear you need a lot of rpms to get the prop spinning and start getting momentum going backwards.

The propwalk never went away, but it became mostly manageable.

 

[SteveL]

And still more about prop walk 1974 E32-2 photos

Martin, I am so glad to hear from someone who understands the magnitude of the problem. Your description is close to what I experience, except with enough sea-room, more than in any marina, it is possible to get steerage. And Cory, thank you as well. I recall you from the Ericson listserve days, maybe 10 years ago or so. It's nice to hear a familiar voice.

Anyway, I'm attaching some pictures that I took in the spring. I think you'll see why I'm thinking of cutting a clearance notch.






I don't see how I can move strut, extend the shaft, or do very much else. You can see that there is a non-Ericson rudder which is deeper and closer to the prop. There is also a new Yanmar, and really with the 3-blade Maxprop, I don't understand why it doesn't bite, but it doesn't. I like the explanation about IOR although I don't know what they did that affected reverse as much as it did.

I'm not sure what is immediately above the prop. It looks like solid glass. Assuming that these boats were overbuilt, I hope I can get away with some grinding. But I'm not wild about the idea.

Again, thank you all.

Steve

 

[Martin King]

Steve,

Thanks for the pics. I think you have room to go aft an inch or so, and up to a 14 inch wheel. That would leave
you with about an inch for clearance, not optimum but enough. You could do this easily enough with installing
a drivesaver if there isn't one already installed and you have the room at the shaft coupling. Also confirm your pitch settings are what you think they are.
Also if a Max prop is fouled, it really cuts down on the efficiency so keep it clean. Grinding for clearance would
be the last resort. Anyway just my $.02. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Martin

 

[SteveL]

Never heard of the DriveSaver before. I'll look into it further. I'm trying to get in touch with the expert at Pyiinc and see what he thinks about his. I'll let you know. Thanks again.

 

[Second Star]

Prop walk/paddle wheel effect

It is iteresting to see that there is significant paddle wheel effect with a different than originally fitted rudder that, from the picture, looks to be of much smaller area. That would alter the side resistance to the stern being forced to port when the prop is going astern ...

 

[SteveL]

Thanks, Second Star. It may be hard to tell from that single picture, but the size of the rudder is actually larger than the original, which was swept back and seemed to be completely in the water only when the boat was heeled.

Martin's description really captures the essence of this particular Ericson design defect. With crowded marinas and without the luxury of time to wait for fair winds, it's easy to get into trouble.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their ideas and assistance.

Steve

 

[RayS]

This will probably cause a lot of dissension but:
When we bought our 1970 E32 I got an instructor from Chesapeake Sailing School to spend a half day with my wife and I. He had been a sailing instructor at he Naval Academy. He was able to back my boat straight back from a dead stop! I saw him do it several times to prove to me it could be done. He showed me how to do it and he explained to me how to do it but I never really learned what he was doing and have never been able to back the damn thing anywhere but in a circle in the 16 years I have had the boat. Still this sailor could back an E32 straight from a dead stop without blinking an eye. Anyone else ever seen this?
Ray Stevens

 

[SteveL]

Dissension, Ray? What about revolution or insurrection!

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Steve,

No prop is a cure-all. The 12" Max Prop in your pics has blades with an unavoidably low aspect ratio (length from root to tip compared to width fore and aft), because the hub is fairly large on these props. Foils tend to work better with higher aspect ratios, and that's why Martin's suggestion of effectively lengthening the shaft, possibly with a shaft saver, in order to install a 14" dia. prop has merit. It's not going to cure your aggresssive prop walk, but it should improve it. I replaced a fixed two blade prop with a 16" Kiwi prop on my 38. It improved my port propwalk in reverse simply because it was far quicker to gather sternway (and therefore steering control). And it does help to get that sternway started with a big shot of throttle...so you can throttle way down or shift to neutral early and cancel the propwalk completely.

I would also resist the urge to cut out a portion of the hull to gain space for a bigger wheel. Murphy's law suggests that any improvement in thrust would be cancelled by unforeseen turbulence.

Regarding offset prop shafts: my boat has the shaft offset to port, which must only make the port propwalk worse. There must have been some pressing design reason for doing that which escapes me, since I have the original engine, and original shaft rotation. I'm dying of curiosity to know what the reason was.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[SteveL]

Thanks, Dan. Most people find it hard to understand how large a problem prop walk is on this boat. I'm waiting to hear back from the expert at Maxprop, so there'll be more to follow. But during our initial conversation, he acknowledged that some boats spin in circles in reverse and there isn't much that can be done about it.

I initially thought that the prop would have to be either 12" or 15". But if the company is willing to modify these blades to make intermediate sizes, then perhaps there are additional options to increase the propulsion. They didn't seem to have any compunction about doing this and assure me the blades would be balanced.

I agree that a notch should be the last resort.

 

[Loren Beach]

The KiwiProp site sez their prop starts at 14" and goes up by 1/2" increments.
That might worth a look-see.

LB

 

[InSync]

E32-2 Prop Walk Tamed by 3 blade MaxProp (but not eliminated!)

Steve,

Ha! You too eh? So nice to know that my misery has company. We bought the boat last year in San Diego. It had been re-powered with a nice, shiny 20 hp Universal, an M20B is the model l do believe, with a Hurth transmission. Engine only had 46 hours on it. Perfect! However, that nice, shiny engine came with a fixed 3 blade prop that didn't walk to port - it ran! You would swear there was a bow thruster mounted on the port side and all the little tricks that I knew didn't amount to a thing. The two times we took it out I made the broker take it out of her slip and he had a heck of a time.

The first thing we did after buying the boat was invest in a 3 blade 13" MaxProp. By buying it through the broker where we bought the boat and having the prop shipped to Washington state where we were having the boat delivered we saved a ton. This procedure was suggested by the guys at MaxProp by the way. They were great to deal with. We got wholesale (or close to) for the prop and no sales tax because it was bought in California but shipped to Washington. The MaxProp has tempered the prop walk but by no means has it eliminated it. I can get her to back straight down IF I am starting from a dead stop and IF I take it very easy and "listen" to the boat. I keep the engine at about 1000 RPM (we motor/cruise at 2500 RPM) and put her in reverse JUST until she starts to move. the second I have way on, I pop it into neutral and let her glide. I keep on doing this in/out/in/out of reverse gear until I get her to where I'm headed. When I put her in reverse I watch VERY closely out the port side and as soon as I see the prop wash, I pop her into neutral. I find that by watching the prop wash to port I am able to catch her quickly enough to maintain control. If I watch the bow and wait until I see it responding, it's too late and the prop walk has control. But remember, if you are bow into the wind and trying to back up then all bets are off. The force of the wind on the bow is huge! The best advice I can give is to take it easy, take it gently and take it slow. Once you get the hang of it you can start to apply a bit more throttle as necessary but remember that it will quickly get away on you. It's a fine balance!

We dock bow in, starboard tie, and leave our slip by backing out and then going forward down the fairway. Luckily, our neighbour is a smaller, aluminium power boat so I couldn't harm it even if I tried! But I haven't hit it (or anyone else) yet. We use a little trick. We have screwed in a ring attached to an eye at the end of the dock. We take a 75 foot piece of floating line and wrap one end around the starboard side winch (we don't tie it off in case we have to get rid of the line quickly) and pass the bitter end through the ring at the end of the dock and lead it back to the boat. As I slowly back the boat out of the slip Joe will let the floating line ease out without putting any tension on it. If everything is working well I can usually back out the boat to starboard so we are facing bow down the fairway. Joe casts off the floating line and retrieves it as we head out. BUT if everything is not working, he can give a very gentle tug on the line and it will pull the stern back in and on track for my reversing maneuver. We carry a stock of these screw in eyes with rings on the boat and have left them behind at many a marina! For the cost of a buck a ring it's cheap insurance.

The other thing I did was hire a "pro", a friend who's a CYA instructor and who probably taught Lord Nelson in the day, to do docking practice with me. That was a HUGE help. He taught me how to stop the boat in a straight line and then to promptly back her up. He gave me some pointers on spinning her in one spot, the so-called "back and fill". One thing the 32 does well is spin on a dime. Learning how to do this in a tight marina has saved my butt a couple of times. He also taught me that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. There are some times when you just have to work around the prop walk. Again, depending on the current, the wind etc. etc. you may not be able to do things according to your plans and will have to work around it.

The last advice I would give you is practice, practice, practice. Put out lots of fenders, find an empty dock and practice. Also, practice backing up for a few minutes every time you go out. Back up with your bow into the wind, bow off the wind, wind on the stern. Make yourself look like an idiot out there! You will learn lots and look like a pro when you have to do the maneuver for real.

Oh. Did I mention that as an added bonus to the prop walk the re-power also left me with a gear shift that is forward in reverse and reverse in forward. Uh huh. You read right. Just adds to the challenge.

We are considering adding a few inches to the rudder when we haul her out next time. I personally think the rudder is a little small for the boat and think that the few inches will make a huge difference, but I have to fully research that idea. Actually, if anyone reading this has any thoughts on the rudder extension - please let me know!

They are wonderful boats, just like people though - they have their personalities.

Helga

 

[PDX]

Steve,

We are considering adding a few inches to the rudder when we haul her out next time. I personally think the rudder is a little small for the boat and think that the few inches will make a huge difference, but I have to fully research that idea. Actually, if anyone reading this has any thoughts on the rudder extension - please let me know!

They are wonderful boats, just like people though - they have their personalities.

Helga

Foss builds replacement rudders for Ericsons, including higher performance designs. I can't remember if they have a higher performance design for the Ericson 32-2, but they have definitely done it for the 35-2. Here is a link: http://www.fossfoam.com/photos.htm#ericson

 

[tyrguy]

Practice

I found that by filling the fuel tank up and practicing till it's about empty that I can now successfully back up our E29 with Max-prop fairly well. If the wind is blowing over 15knts then I am the best in the marina at doing a prop-walk 360 turn. I've also noticed that when the restaurant, that over looks my slip, is packed with spectators I can usually make twice the mistakes.