I own a '76 E23 that seems to sit unevenly at rest. With the boom and main on the mast and the 4 forward sails in their bags in the V berth, no water in the tank or extra gear, it sits bow up at least 4 inches off of the water line. Is this the designed attitude or should I consider moving some substantial things around (like batteries) to get it to the proper attitude. Is this slowing me down upwind or should I just ignor the whole thing. Thanks for your help.
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Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Your boat is designed to sail on its lines. Suggest that you fill the water tank for openers. I assume that it is in the forepeak. I use a level on my boat to make sure that it is trimmed the same port and starboard, and then I have a inclinometer (tilt meter) inside the companionway so I can see what the angle of heel is under sail. Additionally, I have another one that reads in one-degree increments for fore and aft trim. Bow down trim at rest is not bad. When you put warm bodies in the cockpit, the trim will avarage out.
I believe that Ericsons "squat" just a bit in the stern. My 27 does, but I have learned how to compensate for it.
Best wishes,
Morgan Stinemetz
I believe that Ericsons "squat" just a bit in the stern. My 27 does, but I have learned how to compensate for it.
Best wishes,
Morgan Stinemetz
Ericson squat
Are you sure the painted waterline is correct? My 23 sits with about 2" of bottom paint showing all the way around. If you look at the photo of John C.'s boat on the first page of "23 Tell-Tales", issue #2, it looks like the typical stance in light wind - the stern is just a touch lower than at rest. In stronger wind mine really squats and my upper cockpit drain (at about cockpit floor level) is totally submersed. At rest it is a couple of inches above water level. Moving the battery forward to a box under the v-berth didn't make a noticeable difference, but it did get the weight lower. The owner's manual has a couple of drawings that indicate the designed waterline. I can't remember if "Idoya" is a centerboard boat or fixed keel, but the manual page with the centerboard sketch shows the intended waterline compared to the cabin and cockpit floors, and the cockpit seats.
Are you sure the painted waterline is correct? My 23 sits with about 2" of bottom paint showing all the way around. If you look at the photo of John C.'s boat on the first page of "23 Tell-Tales", issue #2, it looks like the typical stance in light wind - the stern is just a touch lower than at rest. In stronger wind mine really squats and my upper cockpit drain (at about cockpit floor level) is totally submersed. At rest it is a couple of inches above water level. Moving the battery forward to a box under the v-berth didn't make a noticeable difference, but it did get the weight lower. The owner's manual has a couple of drawings that indicate the designed waterline. I can't remember if "Idoya" is a centerboard boat or fixed keel, but the manual page with the centerboard sketch shows the intended waterline compared to the cabin and cockpit floors, and the cockpit seats.
Thanks for the replies. My water tank is just below the cockpit floor about a foot back of the cabin entryway, so is in the back of the boat. If I fill it, it will make the squat more pronounced.
Bob, I've been meaning to write and correct the name of my boat. It is "Stargazer" after one of my hobbies. "Idoya" was just alittle too different and no one could ever pronouce it correctly (including myself). Anyway, I need to get you some funds so I can get the manual to see this waterline. My boat has been painted and may have been changed. It looks like the bow is pointed up in the air though, so it is probably correct. It was a very professional paint job and I can't imagine why someone go to the trouble of changing the line. Wish I had a digital camera and I would post some pictures. Anyone else with some ideas? Thanks.
Bob, I've been meaning to write and correct the name of my boat. It is "Stargazer" after one of my hobbies. "Idoya" was just alittle too different and no one could ever pronouce it correctly (including myself). Anyway, I need to get you some funds so I can get the manual to see this waterline. My boat has been painted and may have been changed. It looks like the bow is pointed up in the air though, so it is probably correct. It was a very professional paint job and I can't imagine why someone go to the trouble of changing the line. Wish I had a digital camera and I would post some pictures. Anyone else with some ideas? Thanks.
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
If you can't use the water tank to compensate--and it appears that is out of the question--then get several of those collapsable 5-gallon water jugs that campers use and see if filling them up and putting four of them in the forepeak helps. Water weight 8 pounds to the gallon, so four jugs will give 160 pounds.
The other area you might look into is fuel and power. If you have an outboard, do you carry the fuel in tanks aft? I race my boat, but in a class that does not pernit the outboard to be removed for racing. Where I carry my fuel does make a difference, however. I try to keep the extra stuff low and forward.
Generally, however, it is not just one thing; it is a combination of things. This forum is a good place to shop ideas and get some new ones. We are all sort of a Band of Brothers under the Viking logo.
Best wishes,
Morgan Stinemetz
The other area you might look into is fuel and power. If you have an outboard, do you carry the fuel in tanks aft? I race my boat, but in a class that does not pernit the outboard to be removed for racing. Where I carry my fuel does make a difference, however. I try to keep the extra stuff low and forward.
Generally, however, it is not just one thing; it is a combination of things. This forum is a good place to shop ideas and get some new ones. We are all sort of a Band of Brothers under the Viking logo.
Best wishes,
Morgan Stinemetz
Thanks Morgan,
I do have an outboard on the stern. It is an older 4.5 hp Mercury that weighs about 50-60 lbs, and the fuel tank is just under the seats in the stern (6 gal, so about 40 lbs). I have enough fuel line to move it forward still in the lazarette, but I fear this is not going to be enough. I quess since the boat already weighs in at about 3200 lbs another 160 of water jugs in the bow won't slow it down much. Possibly the correction to the attitude will make up for the extra weight. I'll just keep experimenting till it comes out right. Thanks again.
I do have an outboard on the stern. It is an older 4.5 hp Mercury that weighs about 50-60 lbs, and the fuel tank is just under the seats in the stern (6 gal, so about 40 lbs). I have enough fuel line to move it forward still in the lazarette, but I fear this is not going to be enough. I quess since the boat already weighs in at about 3200 lbs another 160 of water jugs in the bow won't slow it down much. Possibly the correction to the attitude will make up for the extra weight. I'll just keep experimenting till it comes out right. Thanks again.
measurements
I hope to get down to my boat this weekend, and will shoot some photos and take some measurements for you to compare. If you go to http://home.carolina.rr.com/byra/photo.html
and click on Michelob Cup pictures, my boat is in 3 shots in the next to the bottom row - it has the dark blue hull. The side shot is pretty typical of normal waterline in light air.
I hope to get down to my boat this weekend, and will shoot some photos and take some measurements for you to compare. If you go to http://home.carolina.rr.com/byra/photo.html
and click on Michelob Cup pictures, my boat is in 3 shots in the next to the bottom row - it has the dark blue hull. The side shot is pretty typical of normal waterline in light air.
Nice looking E23 Bob! Mine is a fixed keel and the bow is much higher than yours. I may have a picture that I can scan in to show you what I mean. I sail in the Great Salt Lake and the water is 8-10 times saltier than the ocean and therefore more dense, and I ride at least a couple of inches higher than boats in the ocean. Right now I have to trailer to the South marina to put my boat in as 6 years of drought have lowered the lake level about 5 feet. The serveyed elevation is at 4200 feet above sea level and it is now 4195. I need it to be at least 4197 to put back in at the North marina. I've been using the time out of water to fix all the things that I have been putting off - thus the attitude questions. Thanks for all your help and suggestions. Any other ideas more than welcome.
Measurements
With no one on board, including me, my boat measures 36" from the rub rail molding to the water at the bow. I could only measure at the stern by getting on board - that was 26.5" to the middle of the molding. I'll send you a couple of digital pics I took if they turn out OK. I have noticed that when I am on board but the boat is not moving, there is a slight "fall" to the cockpit floor toward the stern, and that the upper drain is about an inch above the water.
With no one on board, including me, my boat measures 36" from the rub rail molding to the water at the bow. I could only measure at the stern by getting on board - that was 26.5" to the middle of the molding. I'll send you a couple of digital pics I took if they turn out OK. I have noticed that when I am on board but the boat is not moving, there is a slight "fall" to the cockpit floor toward the stern, and that the upper drain is about an inch above the water.
Waterline trim
With all due respect to the responders on this one, adding weight to get the boat on its' "lines" is one of the last things you want to do-especially on a small, fairly light boat. It will only slow you down.
For sure, you want to check the waterline stripe to see if it has been repainted and moved, but the most telling thing will be if you observe that the hull/transom joint at the stern is under water when you are seeing this bow up condition. The stern should be clear of the water (empty cockpit and sails up front), so that when you put people in the cockpit it settles to just submerged (at the hull/transpm joint).
If the stern is riding properly as described above, then don't worry about it, If you are seeing the stern riding under the water with the bow "up" then you do have an issue to be resolved.
Is your boat a centerboard model? If so, see how it sits with the board down and let me know. That could be the issue.
When I hear back from you we can look at the next steps.
Seth
With all due respect to the responders on this one, adding weight to get the boat on its' "lines" is one of the last things you want to do-especially on a small, fairly light boat. It will only slow you down.
For sure, you want to check the waterline stripe to see if it has been repainted and moved, but the most telling thing will be if you observe that the hull/transom joint at the stern is under water when you are seeing this bow up condition. The stern should be clear of the water (empty cockpit and sails up front), so that when you put people in the cockpit it settles to just submerged (at the hull/transpm joint).
If the stern is riding properly as described above, then don't worry about it, If you are seeing the stern riding under the water with the bow "up" then you do have an issue to be resolved.
Is your boat a centerboard model? If so, see how it sits with the board down and let me know. That could be the issue.
When I hear back from you we can look at the next steps.
Seth
Seth, My boat is a fixed keel model and the transom is definitely submerged deeper than it should be. When I am underweigh and relatively even keeled the water fills the small drain trough at the back of the cockpit and sometimes covers a little of the cockpit floor. I frequently close the drain seacock so the annoying water is not sloshing around back there. I always store my sails in the V berth and any duffles or other loose items up there. The only other items of any weight are the batteries (2) which are just aft of the bulkhead separating the cabin from the cockpit. The outboard is on the transom and the 6 gallon plastic fuel tank is in the port lazarette. That's about everything that weighs over 10 lbs. Nothing has been modified from the brochure pictures of the '76 E23 that I can see and there has been no damage repair to the hull or deck. I just can't see why it is so cockeyed in the water. Thanks for any input. M.Gann
Your description matches what I have observed when sailing my 23 - depending on the tack and angle of heel, water sometimes comes in the drain and occasionally above the "trough" level, especially if I have 2 or 3 in the cockpit. I have gotten in the habit of closing the drain valve and plugging the upper drain/scupper too before leaving the dock, since it is submerged when under way. On the occasions when I have forgotten to do so, it was necessary to slow the boat way down, get everyone else on board to head for the bow, then open the upper drain and let the water in the cockpit run out, at least down to trough level. When we took water over the rail during a race, we had to bail, as slowing down was not an option. I view all this as one of the few design flaws of this boat and have even considered plumbing a small pump into the drain in order to get the cockpit dry. Under way, in bigger water than the lake I sail on, it would seem to me a dangerous situation to have a boat whose cockpit would not drain. Yet plenty of these boats are and have been sailed on SF Bay and other similar locations. When racing I put the fuel tank on the cabin floor as far forward as possible, as well as any other moveable weight - cooler, etc. But she still squats in the rear as speed picks up.
Trim
Guys, This is odd-many boats squat with people in the cockpit (especially smaller ones), but it sounds like BOTH of you are seeing this condition at rest, with the cockpit empty. If you have truly checked under the aft bunks and any possible location where water could accumulate (or worse saturate), then you need to minimize weight aft when sailing for performance (outboard and fuel in the cabin, etc. and keep the crew out of the cockpit as much as possible(this is faster anyway).
While I have not seen this on 23's I have sailed, and assuming we have checked everything, it may be something like the layup being too thinck in the aft end of the boat. Sadly, this happened sometimes at the factory-leaving too much resin in, etc.
Sorry I could not be more help.
S
Guys, This is odd-many boats squat with people in the cockpit (especially smaller ones), but it sounds like BOTH of you are seeing this condition at rest, with the cockpit empty. If you have truly checked under the aft bunks and any possible location where water could accumulate (or worse saturate), then you need to minimize weight aft when sailing for performance (outboard and fuel in the cabin, etc. and keep the crew out of the cockpit as much as possible(this is faster anyway).
While I have not seen this on 23's I have sailed, and assuming we have checked everything, it may be something like the layup being too thinck in the aft end of the boat. Sadly, this happened sometimes at the factory-leaving too much resin in, etc.
Sorry I could not be more help.
S
Thanks all for the info and help. I am attaching a scanned photo of my boat. There are 3 of us on board with myself (200 lbs) and my youngest son (65 lbs) in the after part of the cockpit and my middle son (110 lbs) in the middle cabin stowing gear. It is a light air day and I have the 180 up and I have just sailed away from the courtesy dock with the fender still in the water (oops). My wife is taking the picture. You can see the definite squat. The boot stripe is completely submerged in the stern and you can see a couple of inches of the black bottom paint at the bow. The boat is dry sailed, so I don't think saturation is a factor. As a matter of interest in the background you can see the breakwater and the entrance to the Antelope Island marina in the Great Salt Lake. Also in the deeper background is Fremont Island. Thanks for all your advice and help.
Trim
Nice shot! Do you always race with your fenders hanging out?
But seriously, this does not look so bad given where the crew is. It looks pretty light, and in these conditions ANY boat should have everyone except the driver forward by the leeward shrouds. If your crew were in the right spot this might be OK....
S
Nice shot! Do you always race with your fenders hanging out?
But seriously, this does not look so bad given where the crew is. It looks pretty light, and in these conditions ANY boat should have everyone except the driver forward by the leeward shrouds. If your crew were in the right spot this might be OK....
S
Seth, It gets pretty tight rounding the marks, thus the fender. Also, I always drop the motor down so as not to walk away from the group too rapidly. No use in making jealous enemies. Actually I've just barely left the courtesy dock and am still in the marina coming back to pick up my wife taking the picture. The boat sits pretty much the same way at the dock with no one aboard. Maybe not so pronounced, but I get the same drain trough full of water that will not drain as it is at water level when I wash the boat down at the dock with no one aboard. M.Gann
Doesn't look too strange
You have the better part of 350 lbs of moveable weight (I'm including the motor) aft of the cockpit winches, and one thing that I learned this year (from Morgan) is to get the moveable weight FORWARD to make the boat perform. I bet that if you took a photo of the boat from the same angle, not under way, no one on board, your painted waterline would be about right. You said you have two batteries on board. Perhaps no single item is enough to make a noticeable difference, but the 23 is small enough that when you total the batteries, fuel tank, people, and perhaps cockpit locker contents, there is quite a bit of moveable weight involved. I have noticed that when the wind is really up my boat seems to settle a little deeper up front - doesn't seem to hurt the speed, though.
You have the better part of 350 lbs of moveable weight (I'm including the motor) aft of the cockpit winches, and one thing that I learned this year (from Morgan) is to get the moveable weight FORWARD to make the boat perform. I bet that if you took a photo of the boat from the same angle, not under way, no one on board, your painted waterline would be about right. You said you have two batteries on board. Perhaps no single item is enough to make a noticeable difference, but the 23 is small enough that when you total the batteries, fuel tank, people, and perhaps cockpit locker contents, there is quite a bit of moveable weight involved. I have noticed that when the wind is really up my boat seems to settle a little deeper up front - doesn't seem to hurt the speed, though.
good point
Right, Bob-ALL displacement boats DO settle as they pick up speed- the 23 included. I agre with you about the weight issues, although he seems to be saying even with all that taken into account it is still bow up/stern down. I think if gear is fwd. and crew out of the cockpit he should be fine, but...???
Right, Bob-ALL displacement boats DO settle as they pick up speed- the 23 included. I agre with you about the weight issues, although he seems to be saying even with all that taken into account it is still bow up/stern down. I think if gear is fwd. and crew out of the cockpit he should be fine, but...???
Thank you all for your advice. It will be awhile until I can try it all out, but I will. I will move the fuel tank forward, get the crew out of the cockpit, relocate the batteries (and go to just one as I never use the 2nd one) and maybe in races take the motor off the transom and stow it below. Right now I have snow on the ground and a shallow inland salt water sea that needs a couple of more feet of water. If you are all patient enough I'll post an update when I am back in the water and trying all the solutions. Thanks again all. GREAT FORUM!!! M.Gann