Cracked Keel - Trailing Edge

[footrope]

Good morning sailors,

Attached is a photo of the cracks I found in the deep fin keel of my 1980 E38. Has anyone seen this before and have any idea what causes it? Has anyone ever had a keel crack repaired? It took a day or so out of the water, resting on the keel, before I noticed the crack in the paint. The next day it wept some water. When the paint was still on, it hid the second and third cracks on this side. The aft-most crack extends around the radius to the right side, but stops about an inch forward, too. They are still weeping some water. When I first saw the crack in the paint I was hoping for a paint-only problem, but...

The aft crack is 3/4" long. Moving forward, the second crack is 1/2" long and the last one is 1-1/4" long.

The yard ops manager said that many boats have similar conditions but did not elaborate. I think I need to have a keel or structural guy take a look at it. I just don't know who to talk to yet. I may e-mail the PO to ask him about it, too.

Some other interesting, possibly contributing facts.
(1) Before I bought this boat, it sat for ~9 months at a brokers dock at Anacortes, WA, in shallow water. The keel rested in the mud during some low tides and was discolored black up to about 10 inches. The boat also sat in the PO's backyard for several years during his refit and then just resting the year before he sailed it back up here for his last season. He stored it ashore in Anacortes during winters (he cruised it in the Northwest).

(2) While sanding off the black I discovered some amount of filler (looks like epoxy) around parts of the bottom inch or so. Seems like it's been run aground during it's life.

(3) I have touched the bottom with the keel twice since I've owned it. Once in my marina at an extreme low tide with 18' indicated on the depth (at last glance). Just a tap at about 2 knots, probably an old piling or sunken log. The second time was leaving the Port Townsend Boat Haven, right at the entrance, where the guides warn about staying to one side because of a shelf that juts out. Found it. Again just a tap with 5.9' on the depth, at maybe 3 knots. I doubt these two taps caused the problem, but that's alot of momentum, on a long arm.

Sorry to bore you with speculation, but this condition looks to me like it would be caused by flexing the keel from side to side while the bottom of the keel was fixed in place - in mud or on blocks. Is it an indication of improper blocking or a caution against too much time ashore for this type of keel? You E38 folks on the east coast haul out each winter, right?

*** The cracks are in epoxy that encapsulates the keel **** 4/24/05
Cheers and thanks,

 

[Loren Beach]

Maybe a simple answer...

It is not uncommon for lead keels to have low-grade filler used by a prior owner or yard for fairing. This could crack from shrinkage, over time.
I hope it proved to be nothing more "interesting."



Loren in PDX

 

[footrope]

Opposite perspective

Not sure how it will turn out, but I put it back in the water today. I'll show the pictures to a surveyor when I can find one. If the surveyor needs to pick at it, I'll haul it on a Saturday, so I can be there. I'm behind at work so I can't get away during the day right now. It was a fun week working on it, but vacation's over. I just need to get it off the hard and stop the charges for a few weeks.

Does anyone know if that area is solid or hollow? It's so high up near the hull (which wasn't apparent from my post) that a friend suggested maybe it's just a "skin" crack. I thought that the entire keel was solid. By the way, the aft crack is 3/4" long. Moving forward, the second crack is 1/2" long and the last one is 1-1/4" long.

The crack appears to be in metal, based on a good sanding and on tapping the area. It doesn't sound hollow. I didn't tap it while it hung in the sling today though. When they picked up the boat the fresh paint cracked immediately and it wept a little more water.

I'll post again when I get a reading on the pictures. Thanks for the encouragement, Loren.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

My only expertise in this is that my boat came with a weeping hull/keel joint (it had also grounded hard enough to put a large dent in the bottom of the keel). I was much "stupider" then about boats and bought the boat anyway without questioning the broker-recommended surveyor on the matter. Anyway it turned not to be a big deal. I had the keel dropped and rebedded ($1200, in case you are wondering). But as a result of worrying about it (like you) I examined a lot of boats with hull/keel cracks. I have not seen one with diagonal cracks like yours. If I had to make a wild ass guess, based on your description of how the boat was stored with the keel buried in the mud, I would guess that the keel has been subjected to some kind of twisting motion (or maybe from a collision). I doubt that the cracks are in the lead since lead is malleable and because you say the cracks are weeping. The keel stub is not solid, but on my 32-3, only about 1/2 inch thick at a point about 2 inches above the bottom of the stub (I know because I had a hole drilled at the turn of the bilge to drain the bilge in the winter). You should definitely have a good surveyor check the boat for structural damage particualrly in the bilge areas and look into having the keel rebedded, which is a good idea anyway on a boat of your vintage.

 

[footrope]

Cracked Keel - NOT!

I'm pleased to report that the previous owner not only had a great epoxy barrier coat (5 layers) put on the bottom of the hull, but he also faired the keel to hull joint with fiberglass. After that he encapsuated the entire keel with 5 layers of epoxy. What he encountered then, and I discovered last week, was that the epoxy cracks up there at the trailing edge of the keel near the top.

With the flexing that must be going on in normal sailing I'm not surprised to see a problem with the relatively brittle epoxy. He said he patched it a couple times by sanding to the metal and re-coating it, but the cracks kept coming back. Also explains the slight weeping I saw.

The reason he epoxied the keel was so that bottom paint would stick - and it does. And the keel-hull joint is still invisible ten years after he launched the boat.

So, it's no wonder none of you have seen anything like this - there probably aren't that many 38s with an epoxy encapsulated keel. And I bet the non-epoxied lead keels are doing just fine up there at the top. Sorry about the false alarm.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

I have seen cases where the keel/hull joint opens and the "fix" is to cover it with fiberglass. The only proper repair is to drop and rebed the keel (according to Pacific Seacraft which I consulted). Moreover, I know of no reason to epoxy a lead keel to make the "paint stick" and certainly not five coats. My lead keel has only a primer and the paint has never peeled off. So I would take the explanation with a grain of salt. You said that the crack "wept water". That means there is some kind of void under the coating. Furthermore you say the epoxy is cracking because of the "flexing". My keel was rebedded with epoxy and the crack has not reopened in six years. The keel should not be flexing. I would consult a surveyor.

 

[footrope]

Geoff,

The keel was dropped, re-bedded and the keel bolts re-torqued prior to the rest of the bottom and keel work, by/for the PO, about 10-11 years ago. He elected to glass the joint, although I don't know why, unless he thought it would protect the joint from problems longer. I don't know the "why" of the epoxy either. But, I think you must have have read/heard that your chosen bottom paint does not adhere well to bare lead. Otherwise you would not have prepped and primed your keel. You must have done a good job, based on your successful experience.

Your point about the weeping is well, taken, though. The weeping cracks in the epoxy are a watch item and I will probably have to consider sanding back to the lead again, as the PO did. Clearly there is some delamination of the epoxy coating. The repeated cracks in the epoxy could come from something else that's pretty ordinary - like differing expansion/contraction due to temperature changes. I hope I can find a surveyor or naval architect with experience with epoxy on lead, or better yet with Ericson's thin keels. For now, there is no other indication of any problems in the joint area. All the water in my bilge is rain water from the mast drain.

On a less expensive note, my wife and I took the Project out for a sail Saturday in Elliott Bay, first time we hoisted the sails since last October. Our sail trimmer friend came along and helped us out. With the tighter backstay and the clean bottom I'd say the boat is performing well. Top speed in 13-17 knots wind, close hauled to close reaching, was 7.9 knots (I may have to calibrate that system some day - nah). We kept it over 7 knots for a good long while on that beat. It rained on our smiles all the way in to the slip, but we hardly noticed.