Does This Ericson 381 Need New Bottom Paint - My Surveyor Refuses to Answer

[Christian Williams]

OK, this is a full project boat. In today's market, alas, it has little value to a prospective buyer. That naturally comes as a surprise to any owner who paid previous market price for it.

E38 prices have plummeted, and somewhere is a specimen for 30K (formerly 50K) in which the totality of neglect shown here has been remedied by sweat, cash and years of time and attention.

We are looking, with sadness, at a gift boat.

By the way, Hobbs meters inevitably fail (they're just a clock). It is rare that a 40-year-old yacht has its original--and may have gone through several of them. So, new Hobbs is not an issue. Multiply age of boat by 50-75 hours per year and you have a reliable estimate of engine hours. Probably an overestimate, since just 50 hours of average annual use can mean a pretty active yacht, and does not account for the long periods of declining use typical of the waning interest of multiple owners.

Often the old Hobbs is in a drawer somewhere, with its record intact.

 

[surfinghollywood]

Many or most Ericson 381s came with the Universal 5432. I don't know anything about Perkins. All i know is that the owner of a 1980s sailboat will (must, needs to, ought to) become personally familiar with the engine, its eccentricities and common issues and needs. That goes equally for the wiring and panels. So if interest continues, include a full commitment to the Perkins model you have.

Excellent video on the Perkins! Nothing scares me regarding engines, been tearing apart engines and rebuilding them and cars since 6th grade lawnmower repair class. Growing up in Jackson Hole, I had auto mechanics class every semester and loved getting greasy.

 

[surfinghollywood]

OK, this is a full project boat. In today's market, alas, it has little value to a prospective buyer. That naturally comes as a surprise to any owner who paid previous market price for it.

E38 prices have plummeted, and somewhere is a specimen for 30K (formerly 50K) in which the totality of neglect shown here has been remedied by sweat, cash and years of time and attention.

We are looking, with sadness, at a gift boat.

By the way, Hobbs meters inevitably fail (they're just a clock). It is rare that a 40-year-old yacht has its original--and may have gone through several of them. So, new Hobbs is not an issue. Multiply age of boat by 50-75 hours per year and you have a reliable estimate of engine hours. Probably an overestimate, since just 50 hours of average annual use can mean a pretty active yacht, and does not account for the long periods of declining use typical of the waning interest of multiple owners.

Often the old Hobbs is in a drawer somewhere, with its record intact.

This gives me the clarity I've been struggling to accept. Sometimes you want something so bad you're willing to overlook the obvious, justify the stupid, and then leap off the cliff, shouting "I'm living my dream!" all the way down to the rocks.... when you thought an ocean would be there to catch your fall. "Damn, I should have looked at the tide chart before jumping to realize it was super low tide." Thank you, Christian.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

@surfinghollywood

Will you do much of the maintenance on your next boat yourself, or hire it done? If you will hire most, look for something in much better shape, pay more up front, but much less in the long run.* This boat has a lot to do for sure, but may be worth having for someone looking for a project.

Aside from potential problems with the engine, it seems like typical 'minor' issues you'd find with a boat this age that hadn't been kept up. Worn out bottom paint. Scuffs in the hull. Sticky mainsail slugs. Leaky deck hardware and portlights. Corroded water tank. Old electronics. Nothing fatal that I saw, just a lot of them. They can add up to fatigue though. The coolant in the bilge should be traced, but coolant systems are actually kind of simple. Clogs can occur at different points. The oil in the bilge would be of greater concern to me.

Is the engine a Kohler or a Perkins? It was unclear from the videos.

Regarding the speculated missing bow D-ring mentioned in vid-1 15:20; vid-2 5:35. That's typically where the anchor locker pan drain tube was attached. With the extra hole added for the chain through the windlass maybe they just let it all drain to the bilge. Not optimum, but not a big deal to remedy.

Had it rained between your first look and the survey? Water in the bilge was mentioned, but that could have been rain through the mast (and anchor locker?).

As far the sole, it actually looks like they did a pretty good job, albeit with unattractive materials. If it's solid and the rest of the boat were good, it wouldn't keep me from buying. Teak and holly is just aesthetic. Don't get me wrong, we went to a lot of trouble and expense to put a new T&H sole in our boat. But it's something that can be addressed down the road.

Christian is right on with his advice on what to look for. *My half-axxed formula is every $4K in parts someone puts into a boat will immediately translate to only $1K at resale, and they they depreciate fast. A good dynamic for buyers.

Please do let us know the survey results.
Jeff

 

[Pete the Cat]

Well Christian summed it up well. This boat needs a lot of work. A couple of things. I have seen worse boats, actually. And some things to think about.

1. The upholstery is important in these old boats because it is very costly to get that kind of work done if you cannot yourself. Folks don't always think about this if replacement is needed. Cushion work can cost $500 to $1000 a piece--don't ask how I learned this.
2. The engine coolant leak problem is concerning, but the 4-108 is probably one of the toughest small diesels to kill and one of the easiest to work on. This one has been worked on an maintained at some point. The coolant leak is a big deal. I think it might have been overhauled as it has been painted white--experienced mechanics do this (paint them white while they have the engine out of the boat) so they can spot leaks--manufacturers paint them red or dark copper to hide leaks. I think the switch was a starting switch so that a previous owner could work on the engine (valve setting?) below without turning the key. FWIW. You must have a totally cold start of the engine--do not ever let the broker or PO start it before you see an engine run. My view is that if a small diesel starts quickly after no more than 15 seconds of glow (or no glow on Yanmar) and does not smoke, it is fine. Ignore hours, they are mostly meaningless on old boats.
3. Sail issues. It looked like the sails might be OK. You have a Dutchman system there and folding the sail is either helped or complicated by the lines running through it. The sail should be flaked by pulling on the leach of the sail so that it folds neatly across the boom with the "fishlines" going straight up to the topping lift. These nylon lines of the Dutchman system get UV damage over time and must be replaced if they are left out in the sun as these appear to have been. And the sail needs to be directly into the wind for it to fall properly with the Dutchman system. The sail will be balky if this system is not used correctly, but that is probably not the track that is the problem. I would look at the sails to see if they can get you through another season--You are looking at $3K for each if you must immediately replace them.
4. Canvas: New Dodger will be $5K or so if you are not removing it. Canvas matters as a large expense.
5. Floor; why was the floor replaced? Did this boat sit partially sunk for a bit? Look at the bottom of the cabinets for water marks.

I actually think you will find other 20K boats that will not have as good bones at this one, but looking at videos is not a great way to inspect one. I generally tell folks to add the big costs of what it will take to get the boat to your acceptable level and then compare your purchase options. Otherwise there are too many variables and it can become too emotional a decision. Buy a boat is never rational, however. Remember that.

 

[Kenneth K]

As far the sole, it actually looks like they did a pretty good job, albeit with unattractive materials. If it's solid and the rest of the boat were good, it wouldn't keep me from buying. Teak and holly is just aesthetic.

I agree, and wanted to make a similar comment. While a nice teak-and-holly sole makes a great impression, it has a zero to do with the seaworthiness of the boat.

I tore out about half of my sole 7 years ago, with the intention of refinishing it. In the years since, I realized there were so many other projects that were more important: engine and engine panel improvements, battery systems, cockpit scuppers, bilge pumps & hoses, standing rigging, and re-bedding EVERY piece of deck hardware. One day, maybe, I'll get around to refinishing the sole.

In your survey and evaluation, I'd give much more attention to those less visible items than to the cabin sole.

 

[Drewm3i]

Yes, the red flags started the day I saw the soul. After watching Christian replace the soul in his 381, I knew this would be one my first 'projects' on the boat. However, now that I've done the complete survey, the red flags outnumber the green flags 2:1.

Episode 2 of the survey

Yup--to me, cheapness and boat ownership go together like gasoline and already-burning fires. If one cheaps out on something like the sole--so important for traction, character, charm, beauty, and overall aesthetics (of a beautifully-designed and built vessel)--what are they hiding in the hidden areas? The only way I could get "onboard" with a replacement like they did here, would be if they installed a teak veneer on top (which is sold in rolled-up sheets).

There are arguments to be made for various flooring materials (real teak veneer, manufactured synthetic teak, vinyl flooring of various types, gelcoat, etc.) , but (unfinished and untreated) plywood is definitely not one of them.

 

[AK67]

Just looking at the listing: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1986-ericson-381-9998096/

Honestly, this doesn't look like a deal to me at all. If someone cheats out on the floor like that, what else do they cheap out on? Looks like it needs a full restoration which is very hard to do to a sufficient standard in an expedient manner. You'd be better off buying a better boat to begin with IMO.

100%. All kinds of red flags. They had to replace the cabin sole entirely and did a pretty basic job of it too,

 

[Christian Williams]

So, would we (have you seen 'Pluribus" on Apple TV, a current sci-fi series in which humanity becomes a hive?) take this boat as a giveaway?

Hmmm. It has the same issues, although in every case to a greater degree, than my boat own 38 had 10 years ago. And I paid $50k.

But then, to me, every worn out piece of gear was a reason to replace with new, and otherwise perfect to my own standards. That's what I wanted, guided by my own pleasurable (and expensive) refurb of a 32-3. Call it Frankenstein syndrome--you wish to bring a body back to life, no matter the madness.

I wouldn't do it again, but only because as, Miles and Beryl Smeeton found, 'Twice is Enough" (title of their book). And because you need a shop and a thousand tools and to be retired or at least unemployed. And live near the boat.

And after ten years, much of the stuff I did seems to need doing all over again. Maintenance, they call it.

But a 38 for free? A 38 facing the landfill or, just as bad, the bankruptcy of an uninformed novice dreamer? Yes, of course. Let the project begin.

Homo Faber we all are--tool-users. Anthropological destiny, eh?

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Yup--to me, cheapness and boat ownership go together like gasoline and already-burning fires. If one cheaps out on something like the sole--so important for traction, character, charm, beauty, and overall aesthetics (of a beautifully-designed and built vessel)--what are they hiding in the hidden areas? The only way I could get "onboard" with a replacement like they did here, would be if they installed a teak veneer on top (which is sold in rolled-up sheets).

There are arguments to be made for various flooring materials (real teak veneer, manufactured synthetic teak, vinyl flooring of various types, gelcoat, etc.) , but (unfinished and untreated) plywood is definitely not one of them.

This is a good point. However, there are boat owners who are very good mechanics restricted by a very tight budget. They make intelligent compromises. This sole is indeed a flag which would make me look at any other work to see the quality of materials and workmanship in critical applications. A tight budget which extended to using household sealant or non-tinned wire or regular steel fasteners and other such would be a no-go. Other cabinetry replaced with Home Depot cabinets would be a no-go. But, if most everything else were original or up to snuff, a sturdy plywood sole alone would not give me pause. They at least went to the trouble of sealing the panels and making them so they can slide out.

As Christian said in his post which rolled in as I was typing, many of the projects this boat will need I've done on ours. Like you, I was able to do them to my standards. To be sure, it has been a long slog. In my case, once will be enough.

 

[Pete the Cat]

So, would we (have you seen 'Pluribus" on Apple TV, a current sci-fi series in which humanity becomes a hive?) take this boat as a giveaway?

Hmmm. It has the same issues, although in every case to a greater degree, than my boat own 38 had 10 years ago. And I paid $50k.

But then, to me, every worn out piece of gear was a reason to replace with new, and otherwise perfect to my own standards. That's what I wanted, guided by my own pleasurable (and expensive) refurb of a 32-3. Call it Frankenstein syndrome--you wish to bring a body back to life, no matter the madness.

I wouldn't do it again, but only because as, Miles and Beryl Smeeton found, 'Twice is Enough" (title of their book). And because you need a shop and a thousand tools and to be retired or at least unemployed. And live near the boat.

And after ten years, much of the stuff I did seems to need doing all over again. Maintenance, they call it.

But a 38 for free? A 38 facing the landfill or, just as bad, the bankruptcy of an uninformed novice dreamer? Yes, of course. Let the project begin.

Homo Faber we all are--tool-users. Anthropological destiny, eh?

I will have the temerity to disagree slightly with the sage of the Ericson clan. I think a free boat could cost WAY more than this one. This one has more or less clean bilges (need to find the source of that oil and coolant) and no apparent need to replace the rudder, rudder bearings, strut or drive train. The most recent owner might have been a clown, but some PO put something into this one at some point. The bottom may need paint, but it looked like it has not had the East Coast 45 layers of paint that would call for soda blast or something like that (I will disagree with your surveyor, you should sand the bottom before every coat--more or less as needed with every paint job--good West Coast boatyards do this). The engine is not original to the boat but someone who got all that aligned; must have known what they were doing and had some mechanical understanding. The electrical problems were not severe and easily fixed. My bet is that this boat was re-rigged at some point and used as a cocktail barge by the most recent owner. I would pay something for a boat whose bones did not put me in the negative column before I got started with the renovation and rebuilding that Christian is talking about (which I think is the way to go). The engine health, sails, canvas and cushions would be the big ticket items here. I have an Ericson 38 in the slip across from me here in Alameda that has not moved or been visited in 15 years--I think the owner has abandoned it and I would not take it for free for what I can see from my slip--the main hatch has been left partly open and sails and canvas are entirely disintegrated and flapping in the wind. Most likely it has water over the floorboards, needs all new sails and canvas right now, needs new cushions, flooring and I don't see how the engine would run after that long of no use and sitting in the damp insides. Bones matter. I actually think that paying 50K for a boat with well maintained engine, useable sails, recent rigging, solid drive train, rudder and acceptable interior cushions, can be a much better deal than a free boat, but most don't see it that way.
I paid half the asking price of my 32-200 when I bought it in 2020. I added up what it was going to take to get it to my basic standards (the boat was only in slightly better shape than this one. I told the owner that i was not opening a negotiation, that this was my first and last offer but that I would not nickel and dime in him in the survey. He took it immediately. I paid too much. FWIW.

 

[Loren Beach]

I told the owner that i was not opening a negotiation, that this was my first and last offer but that I would not nickel and dime in him in the survey. He took it immediately. I paid too much. FWIW.

A little wry humor, right there.
I recall that we offered the owner quite a few thousand less than the asking, after talking to our surveyor. Our boat was obviously a fixer-upper.
Seller did not like the needed expenditures that the survey laid out, but was finally persuaded that we also did not want a protracted back-n-forth, and just wanted the boat as-is, with the obvious repairs. We were paying cash, so that may have been persuasive. We did try to make it clear that we did not intend to raise any issues beyond the obvious ones that surfaced in the survey. I believe that the broker might have done some persuading also, seeing that we were serious. FWIW, the seller was "upside down" in their loan payoff, and this gave them added heartburn.

Strictly IMO, selling used boats can be a difficult way to make a living!

 

[Drewm3i]

But then, to me, every worn out piece of gear was a reason to replace with new, and otherwise perfect to my own standards. That's what I wanted, guided by my own pleasurable (and expensive) refurb of a 32-3. Call it Frankenstein syndrome--you wish to bring a body back to life, no matter the madness.

I wouldn't do it again, but only because as, Miles and Beryl Smeeton found, 'Twice is Enough" (title of their book). And because you need a shop and a thousand tools and to be retired or at least unemployed. And live near the boat.

And after ten years, much of the stuff I did seems to need doing all over again. Maintenance, they call it.

But a 38 for free? A 38 facing the landfill or, just as bad, the bankruptcy of an uninformed novice dreamer? Yes, of course. Let the project begin.

Homo Faber we all are--tool-users. Anthropological destiny, eh?

The former point, about the work entailed and the need to do it all over again after 10 years or so, is one of the most annoying things about refitting boats: i.e. that NOTHING is truly forever. I am a big believer in "do it once, do it right," but on a boat the size of an Ericson 38, that is very time consuming and expensive--and still, nothing lasts forever: not sealant, not cabin soles, not plumbing or heads, not standing rigging, etc.

Hence why the best advice I can give, as someone who has owned twelve boats and refit six extensively, is find a boat that has been kept up with enough (or garaged somewhere) that it constitutes a "good" starting point. To that effect, your 38 probably was a solid place to begin to make your boat in your image ten years ago.

Things are different now simply because of age and economics--these old Ericsons were/are great boats, but bringing them back from near-dead is no small task when every fitting, every thru-hull, every system, etc. is now about 2.5X its useful life (roughly 15 years I would say).

But to your last point: what happens to boating when all the old boats die and are crunched? There is not a single mass production sailboat builder left in the US (RIP Catalina and Tartan), so if someone doesn't save each of these boats, the sport (and boat ownership) will simply wane until it dies altogether.

But Christian you are so right!: refitting a boat IS a full-time job so one must either be retired or not currently employed while refitting a substantial boat. For the sake of these boats, I hope someone is eventually willing to take on these much-needed refits; but such a process would require cooperation on the part of the owner(s), who would have to gift the boats to willing, able, and dedicated people make it worthwhile IMO--the recent E-38 in NY that was discussed also fits this mold.

For those who love seeing old, quality boats brought back to life, I can't recommend "Sailing Magic Carpet" on YT enough. I like to joke with my wife about Aladino always "going full Aladino" during his anal-retentive, OCD refits (I think he likes working on boats over actually sailing them TBH)--which I would never recommend anyone do for practical reasons--although I have to admit watching the process of his work, dedication, and ingenuity morph over time into a wonderful result, to be a guilty pleasure of mine.

 

[Drewm3i]

I will have the temerity to disagree slightly with the sage of the Ericson clan. I think a free boat could cost WAY more than this one. This one has more or less clean bilges (need to find the source of that oil and coolant) and no apparent need to replace the rudder, rudder bearings, strut or drive train. The most recent owner might have been a clown, but some PO put something into this one at some point. The bottom may need paint, but it looked like it has not had the East Coast 45 layers of paint that would call for soda blast or something like that (I will disagree with your surveyor, you should sand the bottom before every coat--more or less as needed with every paint job--good West Coast boatyards do this). The engine is not original to the boat but someone who got all that aligned; must have known what they were doing and had some mechanical understanding. The electrical problems were not severe and easily fixed. My bet is that this boat was re-rigged at some point and used as a cocktail barge by the most recent owner. I would pay something for a boat whose bones did not put me in the negative column before I got started with the renovation and rebuilding that Christian is talking about (which I think is the way to go). The engine health, sails, canvas and cushions would be the big ticket items here. I have an Ericson 38 in the slip across from me here in Alameda that has not moved or been visited in 15 years--I think the owner has abandoned it and I would not take it for free for what I can see from my slip--the main hatch has been left partly open and sails and canvas are entirely disintegrated and flapping in the wind. Most likely it has water over the floorboards, needs all new sails and canvas right now, needs new cushions, flooring and I don't see how the engine would run after that long of no use and sitting in the damp insides. Bones matter. I actually think that paying 50K for a boat with well maintained engine, useable sails, recent rigging, solid drive train, rudder and acceptable interior cushions, can be a much better deal than a free boat, but most don't see it that way.
I paid half the asking price of my 32-200 when I bought it in 2020. I added up what it was going to take to get it to my basic standards (the boat was only in slightly better shape than this one. I told the owner that i was not opening a negotiation, that this was my first and last offer but that I would not nickel and dime in him in the survey. He took it immediately. I paid too much. FWIW.

I am attempting to give away a 1989 Ericson 34-2--with pretty good bones--for the original owner in the Annapolis area, and so far no takers or even serious interest. The boat has a solid keel joint, rudder, shaft + strut, TAFG, mast, and has had its bottom peeled (ready for paint). The deck is solid and the chainplates, etc. look good with no crevices corrosion.

The floors are shot, as are the sideliners and one bulkhead near the head. Some shelving and cabinetry would need some work too, but the boat has a brand new (unopened) 135 genoa. The mainsail is (probably) serviceable. The boat has a spinnaker. The boat even has a folding prop! The boat has a bimini and dodger in good shape (have been stored away all these years), as well as a full compliment of older electronics. I am unsure if the engine would run but it was winterized way back when according to the owner who got sick-- hence the lay-up.

All of that is to say: I guess I just don't see what the boat in this post for 18-20K would have as an advantage over a boat like Silverleaf: both would likely end up needing at least 45-50K (all-in) of work to be brought back to good condition (e.g. the gel on Silverleaf could be saved as it has been protected from deterioration by yard grime for years, whereas the boat in question here really needs a professional paint job) so it really all depends on location and preference.

If I had endless time and money, I would refit a number of these boats myself. I hate to see them die! Really love the 34-2 as a design as well (probably my favorite Ericson)...

 

[Prairie Schooner]

The former point, about the work entailed and the need to do it all over again after 10 years or so, is one of the most annoying things about refitting boats: i.e. that NOTHING is truly forever. I am a big believer in "do it once, do it right," but on a boat the size of an Ericson 38, that is very time consuming and expensive--and still, nothing lasts forever: not sealant, not cabin soles, not plumbing or heads, not standing rigging, etc.

Hence why the best advice I can give, as someone who has owned twelve boats and refit six extensively, is find a boat that has been kept up with enough (or garaged somewhere) that it constitutes a "good" starting point. To that effect, your 38 probably was a solid place to begin to make your boat in your image ten years ago.

Things are different now simply because of age and economics--these old Ericsons were/are great boats, but bringing them back from near-dead is no small task when every fitting, every thru-hull, every system, etc. is now about 2.5X its useful life (roughly 15 years I would say).

But to your last point: what happens to boating when all the old boats die and are crunched? There is not a single mass production sailboat builder left in the US (RIP Catalina and Tartan), so if someone doesn't save each of these boats, the sport (and boat ownership) will simply wane until it dies altogether.

But Christian you are so right!: refitting a boat IS a full-time job so one must either be retired or not currently employed while refitting a substantial boat. For the sake of these boats, I hope someone is eventually willing to take on these much-needed refits; but such a process would require cooperation on the part of the owner(s), who would have to gift the boats to willing, able, and dedicated people make it worthwhile IMO--the recent E-38 in NY that was discussed also fits this mold.

For those who love seeing old, quality boats brought back to life, I can't recommend "Sailing Magic Carpet" on YT enough. I like to joke with my wife about Aladino always "going full Aladino" during his anal-retentive, OCD refits (I think he likes working on boats over actually sailing them TBH)--which I would never recommend anyone do for practical reasons--although I have to admit watching the process of his work, dedication, and ingenuity morph over time into a wonderful result, to be a guilty pleasure of mine.

Entropy rules, for sure.

". . . what happens to boating when all the old boats die and are crunched? There is not a single mass production sailboat builder left in the US (RIP Catalina and Tartan), so if someone doesn't save each of these boats, the sport (and boat ownership) will simply wane until it dies altogether."

Even though we hope to enjoy our boat for a number of years yet, your comments have me thinking about the end game for Kismet. The work I do on her is definitely intended to last longer than her time with us. I imagine finding a young family looking for a solid platform to build their own adventures. In my present state of mind I'd do much to facilitate their stewardship. Sort of melancholy to think about. Perhaps the golden age of middle class recreational boat ownership was a blip of the Baby Boom economy and will pass along with other manifestations of that American Dream. A pity. Dark musings in gray mid-winter.

 

[Kenneth K]

For those who love seeing old, quality boats brought back to life, I can't recommend "Sailing Magic Carpet" on YT enough.

I thought it funny, and telling, that the name of the boat is not Magic Carpet, but Sailing Magic Carpet. Seems like a YouTube presence is fully integrated into the boating experience for a lot of these folks.

Still, I can't imagine calling my boat Sailing Mariah...

 

[Drewm3i]

I thought it funny, and telling, that the name of the boat is not Magic Carpet, but Sailing Magic Carpet. Seems like a YouTube presence is fully integrated into the boating experience for a lot of these folks.

Still, I can't imagine calling my boat Sailing Mariah...

Good point!

I am of a similar age as these folks, and if my wife and I ever get "out there" *for real*, you can bet your bottom dollar I will not be a vlogger; as I have no interest broadcasting my personal life to the whole (A)Internet. I would be happy to write about and publish my reflections on experiences, but have no interest in being another face on a camera. Nothing against those who do (have loved watching a few who do over the years, like Delos, Magic Carpet, Christian, Zingaro, and a few others).

 

[southofvictor]

Boat ownership may not be a good financial decision, but it’s a good mental health decision. I’d rather give my money to chandleries, boatyards, and sailmakers than therapists and lawyers.