Downwind without a whisker pole... and: Parasailor?

[Prairie Schooner]

. . .
Regarding the crane issue, I would think you'd want that. If you run the spinn sheets inside the forestay, the head of the sail could get bound up between the mast and halyard. The crane puts it all out in front of that kit. FWIW
. . .

What I meant to say was 'inside the sail, tack'. The sheets would be outside the forestay. Running sheets outside the tack is often done but you need to be more vigilant because they can fall under the bow.

I'd want a downhaul. Without one an awkward puff can send the outer pole end skyward.

 

[Vtonian]

.Anyway, knowing the right pole size is obviously step one in trying to find a used one

Many thanks!

Depends on your goal. I was trying to avoid standing on the deck pushing the jib clew out with a boat hook, and the pole i got was just short enough to pass inside the forestay when lowered so IMO, the perfect length. I dont worry about the last couple feet of genoa that I usually leave reefed because Im sailing, which is not about worrying.

 

[Dave G.]

though it is tempting to use the spare jib halyward for that... is that a bad idea?

That will work fine. I used my spinnaker halyard. Just be sure to secure it before furling to prevent any possible wrap issues. As far as length I think your "J" dimension is a good(and race legal) size.

 

[Christian Williams]

You can pull the genoa out at the dock and measure how long a pole has to be to work for you.

A pole that puts the genoa at full 90 degrees is a luxury, but one I found important for the Hawaii run. It comes at the expense of expense and unwieldiness.

Spare masthead halyard for pole lift is fine--but offshore i wouldn't do it again. It fouls easily high in the furler on dark nights and the prospect of that is daunting. Many of our masts have a lift sheave installed already, which by its lower location makes it trouble free.

 

[Loren Beach]

Many of our masts have a lift sheave installed already, which by its lower location makes it trouble free.

Our boat, and many 80's Ericson's I have seen with the Kenyon spar system, seem to have the slot present. It might have a plastic plug in it if the boat was originally spec'd out with no spinnaker package.

 

[nukey99]

I have a pretty beefy whisker pool on our new to us 1983 35-3. While in San Francisco sailing a Catalina 320 out of Alameda, we had a whisker pool, and it made sailing down wind a real pleasure. The sail inventory we received with the boat includes an Asymmetrical spinnaker with a sock, and it is in our garage will it most likely will remain. Wing on wing downwind sailing was a real pleasure and I look forward to doing it again.

 

[N.A.]

Loren: I don't have Kenyon spars; mine are Lefeill, which PSC used for better or worse. They seem nice, but the features many mention re: the Kenyon's spare slots I often do not have.

Christian: yet again, thanks. I'll look into installing a topping lift block lower down -- shouldn't be too complex (block attached to a ring on the mast is what I'm thinking.) A tangle in the dark (".. it was a dark and stormy night...") is something I have no desire to experience if I can avoid it.

@nukey99 -- Also much appreciated. Could you expand on why you do not use/like the asymmetrical? I'm curious if it is about the sock, or about the sail/boat handling with that sail itself. If the asymmetrical were on a roller furler, would that make all the difference? Or is the poled-out genoa just a more comfortable sail or something?

 

[Kenneth K]

You can pull the genoa out at the dock and measure how long a pole has to be to work for you.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. From memory, it seems the whisker pole can't be brought out to a full 90 degrees anyway, due to the forward lower shrouds. That may leave the genoa partially furled depending on its size.

 

[bgary]

mine are Lefeill, which PSC used for better or worse.

Lefeill was one of the top builders of racing spars in the 70s and 80s, always a quality product. So... even if not equipped with some of the innovations Kenyon had, they're good stuff. IIRC they even built a few custom aluminum boats.

I don't think they still build spars, but they're still around, off Firestone in Santa Fe Springs in the LA area.

$.02
Bruce

 

[N.A.]

bGary: Yes, I discovered (by calling) that Lefeill no longer does spars. I think they are (and maybe have alwasy been) mainly aerospace. This is one of the issues with the Pac Seacraft Ericsons (at least mine) -- a lot of the equipment seems to have been a bump up in (at least perceived at the time) quality, but... you can no longer get replacements. Bowmar hatches, Whitlock pedestals (well, Lewmar now), Lefeill spars, etc. It's actually the hatches that are the biggest headache right now -- deck cutout is not the right size for any others.

Thanks Kenneth K and Christian -- I'll measure, and never would have thought of the shroud issue affecting that; very grateful

Multiple sources of advice seem to point to using a full telescoping whisker pole and my 130%, and skipping the drfiter/asymmetric/parasail, so I'm leaning toward the pole, with either ring or track but a topping life (which I'd have to install too.)

 

[Christian Williams]

One other thing to consider, depending on the amount of DDW passagemaking: To get the foresail 90 degrees from the course requires not only a (very) long pole, but long sheets. Such a set is useful in light air, but has to be revised as the breeze comes up--and the pole has to be shortened as you furl the genoa. Hence the attraction of the Forespar "line control" whisker poles, which can e adjusted in place. (Extending and retracting a conventional "button" pole can be awkward, and may mean derigging from the mast every time).

A very long pole is also useful in conditions in which the sail is set more than 90 degrees, that is, the clew is actually forward of the bow. There are days in which the light wind or sea conditions (a quartering sea), and the needs of a steering vane, encourage that. Again, long sheets are required, with the upside being that a long lazy sheet works well for the pole downhaul.

A too-short pole is no fun, as the foresail wants to be a big barn door in light air. But great length is asking a lot of a telescoping pole, and as a result I'm not a fan of carbon fiber and would stick to aluminum, or at least half-aluminum, and the recommended pole diameter.

This is getting picky and frou-frou, and only really applies to the Hawaii run, or any long voyage dead downwind.

 

[nukey99]

Loren: I don't have Kenyon spars; mine are Lefeill, which PSC used for better or worse. They seem nice, but the features many mention re: the Kenyon's spare slots I often do not have.

Christian: yet again, thanks. I'll look into installing a topping lift block lower down -- shouldn't be too complex (block attached to a ring on the mast is what I'm thinking.) A tangle in the dark (".. it was a dark and stormy night...") is something I have no desire to experience if I can avoid it.

@nukey99 -- Also much appreciated. Could you expand on why you do not use/like the asymmetrical? I'm curious if it is about the sock, or about the sail/boat handling with that sail itself. If the asymmetrical were on a roller furler, would that make all the difference? Or is the poled-out genoa just a more comfortable sail or something?

Our boat in SF was a Catalina 320 and it did not have a spinnaker halyard, so we have no experience with it. When the weather gets a little nicer I'll pull the asymetrical out of the bag and see how it looks.

 

[p.gazibara]

Would you consider a retractable sprit instead?

Sacrificing 30 degrees from either side of ddw and jybing a few times sound appealing?

I have come to prefer it.
-p

 

[nukey99]

Would you consider a retractable sprit instead?

Sacrificing 30 degrees from either side of ddw and jybing a few times sound appealing?

I have come to prefer it.
-p

I have no idea on how to construct a retractable sprit on our boat. I"ve seen them on J105's and it's a pretty beefy system. We will be generally sailing with two people, and I want to make sure we can fly the asymmetrical safely.

 

[Mark F]

Selden makes a retractable sprit kit. A sprit with a top down asymmetrical furler is an easy way to handle an asymmetrical spinnaker. I fly my asymmetrical single handed (on an E27) often.

 

[nukey99]

Selden makes a retractable sprit kit. A sprit with a top down asymmetrical furler is an easy way to handle an asymmetrical spinnaker. I fly my asymmetrical single handed (on an E27) often.

Where is your anchor locker, and do you retain access to it. A picture would be great! This is something to consider, I like the idea of getting it out away from everything else.

 

[p.gazibara]

I made my own, but the kit would be a great start point.



I don’t even carry the pole around anymore. It sits in the rafters of our shed.

I’m with Mark, top down furling makes it really easy to singlehand with a kite.

I would put a masthead crane on though, we have 2 on Cinderella. Ideally you get the whole sail outside of the forestay. Makes gybing easier.

-p

 

[frick]

My E34 has no mast track (nor uphaul/downhaul) for a pole. Of course, I could add one, but it is not cheap (unless one is quite comfortable drilling and tapping their own mast while it is stepped...)

So I have two questions:

1) Is it tractable to just sail a bit off of dead downwind (DDW), such that a genoa stays full without a pole, or is that just a ticket to discomfort and sorrow on a longer passage (say, 2-3 weeks downwind)? I realize that would not be a racing strategy, but is it inadvisable if I am not in a big rush?

2) I have seen a "parasailor" spinnaker advertised; it seems to have a wind-inflated cross-wing that essentially stabilizes it and keeps it open without a pole. Is that a better (or equally good) option, or on a longer passage does one just need a pole eventually?

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I am finding the idea of no pole rather tempting, as I always found them a hassle, and while singlehanding the hassle seems larger -- and frankly the safety issue dancing around on the foredeck to do it. I know Christian did it at age 90, but... I am much younger and yet much less confident than that. Plus, maybe the cost is similar/less for the parasailor since I wouldn't need to add a mast track or pole for it.

I may post this in a separate thread, but it seems maybe I should just continue here:

My E34 does not have a spinnaker halyard or crane, just two jib halyards exiting via a paired block at the masthead. One is attached to the top of the jib's roller furler... which raises the question:

3) For something like the Parasailor (or any asymmetrical/drifter), do I need to get a crane and external block added to the top of the mast, and then run an external halyard (either to prevent fouling the halyard attached to the jib, or to reduce chafe)? Or is it not unreasonable to just use the spare jib halyard for that if it's only periodic 3-week passage, and mostly only a few days here or there?

Many thanks for any thoughts/advice!

So here is a little thought Experiment.
Can you sail downwind faster then a balloon let go from your boat?
If you sail at a slight angle, filling up boath main and genny, instead of dead downwind, your boat will beat the balloon every time.
Rick

 

[Christian Williams]

I've always been curious about this, since a whisker pole is useful but also complication.

Without benefit of protractor or ruler or more than ten minutes, I made this simple diagram. I am capable of elementary math errors which may need correction, , but at a glance the general numbers do seem to make downwind jibing an alternative for our boats.

The question seems to be, can you make your boat go 15 percent faster when sailing 33 degrees off the DDW course. That would be 5.75 knots vs 5 knots, for example.

It seems quite possible. And as a casual cruising strategy, perhaps close enough to make a whisker pole unnecessary.

I haven;t raced in the era of speedy hulls who do this all the time. I was passed offshore by two dueling Transpac racers who seemed to be heading more like 45 degrees off the direct course
.