Ericson 25 keel

[Kringe]

I have posted a myriad of times trying to find help in fabricating a new keel for an ericson 25. I have had promises of diagrams and possible plans which have all resulted in nada. I can order one from Idasailor.com but I would sooo rather just have the plans sent to me that would include all aspects of building and fitting said keel. I have been reconditioning the interior wood and electrical while waiting for desired keel results but, I still need the keel help. If anyone on here has a real answer that could actually result in a real and honestly helpful result I would be forever in gratitude. As it stands I have an awesome keel-less sailboat. I would like it to be an awesome keel-having sailboat. If I order the keel from Idasailor will it include all the necessary hardware to install it? Just a frustrated owner trying to get some help here,,thanks...
Bobby G

 

[Seth]

Do you mean Centerboard?

If so, you will find some help here. The "keel" on the non-centerboard model 25's is molded in the hull, so no wonder there is not much response-it is not something you can build.

If you do a search here on E 25 centerboards you will find what you are looking for.

Cheers

 

[Kringe]

um no

It is a swing keel and I have done more research than average human should have to do. I have read every single post on the internet regarding this subject and have come up empty handed aside from a few promises that have managed to get my hopes up but fall short with empty promises...thanks anyway but again, left right where i started

 

[bayhoss]

Keel

Hi Kringe, dont get frustrated (take your own advise Frank) there are plenty of very good souls on this web that will be happy to help you. With all the avtivity of the holidays it may take a nudge to the ribs to get them going. Detail what you need and see what happens.

Best,
Frank

 

[davisr]

Kringe,

My centerboard is sitting on sawhorses right now. I don't have drawings or plans on how to contruct one, but, if you'd like, I can measure mine for L, W, and thickness. You could use these numbers to construct your own based on all of the pictures on the forum. If I remember correctly there is a thread where I guy shows how he contructed his own. I guess he doesn't provide dimensions. I think it was only about 30 lbs, but apparently it worked. As you probably know, the original ones weigh about 150 lbs.

Best,
Roscoe

 

[Seth]

Here you go

Search under Centerboards, since this is what you are asking about. This thread has discussions and photos to help you with a rebuild:
"Ericson 25's and E-23's Centerboard".

Rob Hessenius has offerred a lot of help and advice on the topic so this should help you (I hope!).
Cheers

 

[Kringe]

Davisr

I would appreciate the dimensions and I have found several things that get me close, but just not enough info to fully get me there. I believe I may just sell the boat as is or just save and get the keel from Idasailor..

 

[Chris Glasspool]

Photos, etc, wont do it. He needs a pattern. I have offered to send via the sytem email but Bobby hasn't responded, so I ask that he double check his private messages. Thanks, Chris

 

[davisr]

Sounds good. Thanks Chris. I was kind of worried that my offer for simple length, width, thickness measurements wouldn't be good enough, especially because of all the sleek curves that make it, as the original literature called it, "hydrodynamic."

Roscoe

 

[Kringe]

I truly appreciate

all of the replies and many offers of help. With Chris's help with outlines and such, I would also ask that if possible, someone could take a whole bunch of very detailed pictures of their keel. Every aspect being photographed would be a tremendous help. I am ready to get this thing handled and you guys have given me the much needed nudge in right attitudinal direction! Thanks!

 

[Loren Beach]

Unless someone were to make up a series of templates (or provide foil sections) from an existing Ericson board, it seems to me like it would be challenging to carve a new board. You cannot just freehand it...

Best you can do is be sure that it is some kind of foil, and that it is perfectly symmetical.

Some hours of fiddly work with a belt sander might be involved, but it's just grind and check with your templates, repeat, repeat, and etc. (FWIW, there must be a lot of small surf board shops around that still do this the old way. Big places have CAD/CAD equipment.)

Easy for me to say that... being a very long ways away from the problem and not covered with sanding/grinding dust! Do wear your mask.


Best,
Loren

 

[CSMcKillip]

I am a glass is 1/2 full kinda guy but is this something that is really safe? The keel is the one part of the boat I would leave to the pros. It might just take one gust to create too much stress on the keel, attachments, the layup would need to be almost perfect, and the smallest amount off could result in a capsize.

Computer keels should have the foil shape they are all taken from standard foil shapes.

Good luck and be safe.

 

[Chris Glasspool]

Loren,

Yes, this is what I have offered to do for Bobby. this is why i said that photos wont do - might help.

I have a keel board in the shop, and I will trace it out on some big paper. Using a profile comb, the foil sections can be notated on the outlay.

If it works, that I make copies, then this post will serve, as a source for others who are in this same predicament, otherwise not. I will report back in a week to verify.

There is an article and chart for getting the right profiles, and manufacturing of wood strip construction that I have somewhere. I will try and find and post later.

I have, "winged", profiles for small sailboats (c-lark & Windmill), for busted and missing dagger boards, and rudders. A little patience, and a small sander with 40 grit paper will do the job. The trailing edges come out thinner, and I have a suspicion that they are more efficient than the glassed originals.

in the case of the E25, it is made easier by the fact, that this isn't a true keel, as the keel weight is supplied by two lead encasements on each side of the keel trunk. The keel weight just has to be enough to keep it down. The Ida-Sailor replacement keel is a fraction of the original weight. Steve Swann told me that he races with his 12 year old niece who has the job of handling the keel with no effort in seconds, and the pendant line does not have to be heavy or steel. - chris

 

[Chris Glasspool]

Here is the link for rudder and centerboard construction: www.paceship.org . Go to the Knowledge Center, and look up, ; "How to build... " by Jay Moran.

While you can heat and pour and sand lead, and probably get the same Mad Cow I have, so instead use a heavy dose of lead shot or fishing weight BB's, and mix with a portland cement mortar. I'll give a description of this if anyone gets interested in trying it. - chris

 

[davisr]

This is starting to become a design question. I'm wondering if Bruce King designed the centerboard for the E25, just as he designed the hull. If so, it seems there would be a reason why he put so much weight into it. Clearly, some have found success and ease of operation with lighter weight replacement boards. I know that if I were constructing one from scratch I would opt for a lighter board. I'm just wondering, though, what the original intention of this heavier-than-usual board was, if indeed BK designed it. I know the boatyard workers thought that the board was unusual when I had the boat hauled and the centerboard removed at the time of purchase.

This almost needs to be posted on Martin's "Got Design Questions?" thread," but it really applies to this one as well.

Roscoe

 

[Seth]

New C/B

The lighter aftermarket boards do work fine, but of course there will be some very slight loss of stiffness, which you might notice in breezy conditions.

Because the majority of the ballast in the hull, I doubt there is a major safety issue for the type of sailing I think you are doing. The stock board was supposedly 150 pounds against 2500 lbs of internal ballast, so the difference will be small indeed. The boat will be a bit more sprightly in lighter air with a lighter board, and a bit more tender in breeze.

Pretty sure BK drew the board, rudder and hull/deck.

Cheers,
S

 

[davisr]

Seth,

I have enjoyed reading your other postings on other topics. Since your are a former manager at Ericson and you have a long career in the maritime industry I am intrigued by your words. What is it exactly that would make the lighter, after-market centerboard perform in the fashion you describe? Is it that the board pivots or bobs on account of its lighter weight? In other words, does a 30 lb board (as opposed to a 150 lb board) lose some of its ability because it is not always in the down position, or at least in the position in which the skipper wishes it to be?

Thanks,
Roscoe

E25, cb, Hull 226

 

[Chris Glasspool]

Hi All,

I sent an outline of the board, and some notes to Bobby G. today, and I kept the original copy in case someone else looses their board, and doesn't want to purchase one.

Ida-Sailor says that the replacement board is closer to the NACA foil, which is a chart that can be found in several places, including the Paceship.org website I listed before. I'm guessing that original board was also profiled to this chart since foils have been standardized for some time. The difference in foil profiles occurs because depending on what material you use the trailing edge is going to be different depending on the material thinness in this area; the original board had a steel frame, and Ida-Sailor is using a casting made from HDPE plastic. Steve Swann reported better pointing etc, with the replacement board.
The part of the board that fits into the trunk while sailing is 2.5 inches thick, and flat, and the foil portion is 2 inches thick at the thickest portion which is 30% of the distance from the leading edge. The trailing edge is 13.2 degrees total, and the leading edge is a bullet shape, that is 1.75 inches thick 1.25 from the front edge when the board is measured at the 12 inch across sampling of which appears to be the average, and then the other areas are blended to this sample cross section. the thickest portion (2") is maintained throughout the board from the 1/3 ratio from the front as mentioned.

I've wondered about the lighter board planing up, out of a down position (it lays a at 45% degree back angle as is), or saw-horsing, or causing a loss of sailing flatness, but but I would of thought someone would have posted on these complaints already if valid.

I'm going to be casting the board out of PVA-ECC (polyvinyl alcohol fibers Engineered Composite Concrete), just to satisfy my curiosity, since this is something I do.
Good luck Bobby - chris

 

[Seth]

Answer 4U

To answer Davisr, it is really much simpler than that.

Going from a 150 lb board to a 30 lb (or whatever it is) board will raise the CG to some extent. A higher CG means less stability/more tenderness/less sail carrying ability. So, unless you reduce sail a bit sooner, or add a body on the rail to compensate for the loss of stability you will be a bit slower going upwind in breeze because you will be heeled more, which we all know is pretty, but not fast. Excessive heel means you are dragging more rudder than you need to, and once you are beyond the design sailing trim, the actual hull shape the water "sees" is not what the desinger intended, and will be pushing water (creating drag) around the boat. All of which are slow.

Similarly, the higher CG will allow the boat to heel a bit earlier in light air, and get the boat to its' optimal sailing trim (heel) in less breeze than it would with the heavier board. This means the boat will be a bit quicker in light air.

The last area of impact is the loss of 120 lbs of overall weight. This will allow faster acceleration out of tacks or gybes, or in response to little wind puffs.

It is the combination of these two things which will make the boat more "lively" in lighter air.

In truth, I think the difference will be small, but should be noticeable if you are paying attention.

Hope this helps!

 

[davisr]

Thanks Seth. Your CG explanation makes a lot of sense. Chris, thanks for the measurements. Wish you the best with your casting project. Would be interested in seeing some pictures of the process so it will all be more clear for everyone in the future.

Best,
Roscoe