Giving up on my Atomic 4

[bhowell123]

Two straight years of virtually no sailing due to problems with my Atomic 4 have led me to conclude I need to replace it. I intend to put a 4 cycle outboard on the transom of my E27. Has anyone done this? Are there particular things I need to do, such as reinforce the fiberglas, location, etc? I am open to suggestions on the outboard, manufacturer and shaft length? Thanks in advance.

 

[Seth]

outboard

My memory is that a properly installed O/B mount (type that can be raise and lowered) will be fine-just follow the mounting instructions-making sure the backing plate is as large as possible.

Get the Longest shaft you can (can't be too long), and although I am not sure if Evinrude has them in the lower sizes, their 2 strokes are the lightest, most powerful, and cleanest burning engines around. I just can't recall the smallest size so you will have to check.

If anyone has a correction on the motor mount issue, bring it on, please!

Cheers,
S

 

[wurzner]

Bryan,

You didn't describe what problems you had with your A4 and I certainly do not want to start the diesel gas debate. A decent used motor for your boat is going to cost $500~750 minimum; any less and you are going to be in the same boat your in right now, excuse the pun. Expect to pay in the $1500~2400 for a new outboard. Barring any major issues with the A4, there is not reason you can't get it running properly for that much or maybe a bit more. I was in the midst of replacing my A4 with a diesel in my E32 until I purchased a 38-200 last week. The only reason I was going to replace the A4 was I have a Universal M25 with a new Hurth HBW50 in the garage. The diesel needs to be rebuilt, but I figured I could rebuild it for the same price as the A4. If I didn't have the diesel, I would of had no problems with the A4. Most of the A4 problems I had had nothing to do with the engine directly. I lost 2 fuel pumps and 1 coil and that's it over 3 years of owning the boat. I did rebuild the carborater myself and put in electronic ignition. The key things aside from the electronic ignition was putting in a really large and reliable fuel pump and a really large Racor Fuel filter/water separator. Collectively, these changes have made the A4 run like a champ.
I'm not trying to discount your approach, but given the need to spend a few thousand dollars, I would much rather go with the A4 than an outboard. In any kind of weather, the outboard will cavatate and I don't like that. Also, I like the controls and instrumentation integrated so I can see charge status, temp, and oil pressure.

Just a second perspective. I did have frustrating times with my A4, but there were also easily resolved since it is fundamentally designed engine.

regards
shaun

 

[Emerald]

Hi,


I have been quiet on this, and can't hold my silence any longer. Don't do this. Get your A4 running correctly. If you have been using a mechanic, get another. If you haven't, get one. I say this based on the following experience. My first Ericson was an E-27. It had been factory powered with an A4. An unknown prior owner had pulled the A4 and put an outboard on it. It was a perfectly fine Johnson outboard, but it was an outboard. Here's the bottom line. With the outboad, be it someone with a big wake or a day when the wind picks up and there is some wave action. Keeping the prop in the water is hard. Next, at some point, you will need to do something to the outboard. It will probably be on a trip. This means you are leaning over the transom in a bad working condition and if you drop something, you are in trouble. Third, ever have to motor for 5 hours with an outboard in your ear? Yes, I know, the 4 strokes are "quiet". Trust me, a rumble from down below beats a drone from the aft end of the cockpit. Did I mention the thought of also who needs 100 plus pounds hanging off your transom. Wieght at the ends of the boat is not good in a sea state. The A4 is relatively light (about 200), and is way down low - much better place for the wieght.

So, to continue, the best thing I ever did to my E-27 for making it more useable was to put an A4 back in it. I can not tell you how much better the boat handled under power in all conditions with the A4 than with the outboard. It also opened up sailing in heavier winds (hight teens, low 20's). With the A4 and the Indigo prop, I have had no problem maintaining near 6 knots dead into 25 knots wind apparent with 2+ foot waves. Never could have done that with my outboard, and would have stayed home on such days (I was once caught in a very bad scenario in my '66 Columbia 24 with an outboard and high winds overpowering us).


Feel free to contact me back channel if you want to call to discuss your A4 problems. I am pretty familiar with the A4's (rebuilding one right now). I was able to help another Ericson owner who was at his witt's end and about to give up - there is hope.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

 

[chaco]

Don't Do It !

Took on a Little 3-4' following sea wave over the stern in the Gulf Islands
in my Cal20. Swamped my OUTBOARD after 2 hours of the prop riding in and
out of the water...really SCARY :eek: Heading for the rocks in a 3-5 knot
current... I finally got it running. I SWORE at that very momment in time that
I would NEVER rely on an OUTBOARD as primary auxilliary ever again !
My suggestion would be to rebuild the A-4
A Diesel will run you $6000-$8000, and is not cost affective for your boat.

Good Luck /) /)

 

[NateHanson]

I SWORE at that very momment in time that
I would NEVER rely on an OUTBOARD as primary auxilliary ever again !

Anyone have thoughts about outboards in a well in the cockpit? I'm working on refurbishing a Columbia 26 that has an outboard well in the sole of the cockpit, just forward of the rudder, about 4 feet forward of the transom. I'd think this would be more protected, and less prone to constant cavitation, but I don't have experience with this sort of a setup. Am I going to be disappointed with this setup?

 

[Loren Beach]

Wells were common on many smaller pocket cruisers from the 60's and 70's. No prop cavitation, and a high volume cockpit drain for free! To name only a few: smaller Cals and Columbia's, Ranger 24 and 26, and of course the T-Bird. And that's just around here in the NW.
The bad news was the terrible noise and smell from the two-stroke outboards.
With the rise of the four-stroke outboards in the late 70's, you could get (relative) peace and thrift, but at the expense of weight if you wanted to lift out the motor for racing.
The prop is in front of the rudder, for inboard-like handling.

My previous sailboat had a transom cutout on one side for a 10 hp Yamaha. I liked it a lot, but never could make enough amps to keep the battery up. Bracket-mount is the worst situation for engine-flooding and access from the boat, IMHO.

Loren in PDX

 

[NateHanson]

Thanks Loren. It's an arrangement I haven't used before, and (like many other things about this free boat I'm fixing up) I'm curious to see how they will work when I hit the water this spring. That's the funny thing about taking ownership of a boat you haven't seen in the water, from an organization that hasn't seen it in the water. I'm bound to have some suprises!

Nate

 

[Randy Rutledge]

My A4 was out of service for several years when I bought the boat. A blown head gasket and the carb was curded. I replaced the valve springs, did a vale job, replaced the head gasket, cleaned the carb and replaced the distributor cap rotor, plug wires and coil. I later replaced the fuel pump with an electric due to the mechanical being a single diaphragm (if the mechanical leaks the fuel goes in the oil pan and the boat could go fast in no particular direction for a second or two) newer marine pumps have a double diaphragm with a bleed line to the carb throat to burn the spill off of a leak in the engine rather than have it explode.

I had an outboard on my last boat a Neptune 24 with a Honda 8 I sailed in. rowed in and at times used a trolling motor. All mechanical things give problems and break. This keeps mechanics from having to get a real job.

A decent A4 is better on your boat than the best outboard. However I frequently sail away from the dock and sail back in (the first time I had the motor running in neutral just for safety)

I forget what kind of inboard the old tall ships had can anyone remind me.

No auxiliary is no reason not to sail in reasonable conditions it just makes it easier to leave and return to port.

I know some will argue with the sailing with no motor but it is a sail boat isn't it?

 

[wurzner]

Randy,

Point well taken in the sense of no motor is not "typically" a reason not to sail. I say typically because here in the NW where I keep my boat, it is not unheard of have excess of 8+ tide exchanges. I've sailed my boat into my slip once and it was a horrible experiance. The whole way up a 40 slip finger I was faced with tacking (in which case there isn't sufficient room) or being drifted into the transom of all my neighbors boats. I pinched as much as could be because tacking was not an option as previously mentioned and made it in, but it was the best driving I've ever done and it was only for 2+ minutes in just enough wind to make way against an opposing tide. That all said, owning a boat is an expense. Pay the money and get a decent propulsion system. The cost of two years moorage and not using the boat to me means belly up and get her fixed or sell it to someone who will. I went out on a limb to support fixing the A4 and I'm glad I didn't get hung out to dry...most of the posts support my possition. Get a mechanic who can fix your engine was the best response yet. The A4 will serve you well with just a little TLC.

Shaun

 

[jkenan]

Bryan-

If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can get the A4 running yourself with modest costs.

I bought an E29 in Rock Hall, MD, and my wife and I sailed it down the Chesapeake last spring over 400 miles to Oriental, NC with engine problems plaguing us the whole way down. Since then, I have become my own 'expert' with the A4, and got the engine running moderately well for the duration of the season after rebuilding the carb, replacing coil, flushing the cooling system, etc. It still was not running up to snuff, with loss of power due to dirty valves being a constant problem, so I am currently in the process of a rebuilding it completely, which I am doing myself. Once you're in the engine, its pretty straightforward, and I have no doubt this will be a successful project. I also have no doubt this was necessary, because the engine is 30 years old, never been rebuilt, and the main bearings were deeply pitted and the crankshaft badly scarred. Catastrphic failure WOULD have been immenent.

I'm not saying you should pull the engine and do a rebuild yourself. But if you did, you would probably surprise yourself with it's simplicity, and gain a great deal of confidence in your ability to keep it running well. You would also have the reassurance nothing was cracked or in the process of failing once it was all checked out, reground or replaced, and put back together. You will learn a ton about engine mechanics, which I believe translates into better seamanship. It also justifies getting some good tools you wouldn't have if you paid even more money to have someone else do it. If you didn't rebuild it yourself, Moyer Marine (www.moyermarine) offers an $800 core credit when you buy a rebuilt engine from them and send in your old one. Or you could have them rebuild yours. Regardless, Don Moyer is a excellent resource for this old engine, and is passionate about keeping them running.

Keep it, and get it running.
Best of luck.

John

 

[Randy Rutledge]

ohn you are right the A4 is the equivalent of a 7 HP lawn more engine with 4 pistons. A few tolls you probably have, a torque wrench being the most expensive and a $20 valve removal tool from Moyer marine and you are set to do the Job.

Install the heavy duty valve springs from Moyer and Ken the parts order guy or Don Moyer can give you lots of advice they are great support not only is the A4 their income it is their passion.

Doing it your self is not just about saving money it is about learning and being more confident when you are a few feet or miles from the dock and the weather changes. If your engine is slow to start but runs better after warmed up the valves may be coated with a gum that is like a candy coated apple caused by a restricted exhaust.

Next trip to the boat Spray every bolt with WD40 and repeat every trip until teardown it will help. be careful removing the head bolts if they start turning and then lock tighten them a little and then try to back out don’t just use more muscle or you will break the bolt or damage the threads in the block.

Learn and you will build confidence and save money.
BHOWELL,
Moyer has all th info you need or EYO if you dig. You have two or three of us who will coach you if you decide to do the job.

 

[bhowell123]

Once again great responses!

Folks, thanks for all the inputs, I really appreciate it. This site is such a great thing for we Ericson owners, and sailors in general. I get the feeling most of you like your A4s and don't think I should perform this heart transplant. While I really pretty much agree with everything that has been shared, there is always a "yes, but."

My A4 was "rebuilt" a few years before I bought my boat by a previous owner. An owner project with some buddies and LOTS of beer, I am told by those who witnessed it. According to folks who know the boat, it never ran reliably since. I went to the Moyer A4 clinic last fall, and learned a lot. I have put a new carb, electric fuel pump, electronic ignition, and the new water pump on the A4. It still barely runs. It has developed a very major aversion to bringing in cooling water, which makes for some interesting times. I am afraid something serious might be wrong internally, and to rebuild it at Moyer will run me about $4,500.00-5,000.00, plus the costs of yanking it out and putting it back in. This on a 1977 27 footer? The way work is for me I have virtually no spare time, what little time I do have I don''t want to spend like this past 4th of July weekend with my head in the engine bay all 3 days sweating and cursing. Or spending literally MONTHS rebuilding an A4. And not sailing.

I understand and agree with the "it's a sailboat" concept, but where I sail, tidal mid Potomac, and where my slip is and how it is oriented, plus the fact there is barely enough water to float a 4 foot draft boat in the very middle of the (unmarked) channel running to my marina at high tide, much less low tide, sailing her in and out is far more tedious than I want to take on. This is supposed to be my relaxation outlet. Running a slalom course thru a zillion crab pots in 3 1/2 feet of water with iffy and variable winds, motor boats flying past on both sides, is not relaxing. At least not to me.

I also understand the down-sides of outboards. I had a nice Mercury 2 stroke 9.9 remote/electric start on my Hunter 25. Cavitation, prop lifting out of the water in a good swell, noise, smell, etc., etc are all acknowledged and encountered issues. But it ran. And if I needed it to get tuned or fixed, I pulled into the slip stern to, pulled it off, put it in the pickup and took it to the Mercury dealer. The mechanics I have talked to in the yards around my marina hear "sailboat" and start shaking their heads. The 4 cycle Yamaha hi thrusts are supposed to be quiet, powerful, really good for sailboats, and reliable. They are also available with a 25" foot, which should allow the prop to get pretty far beneath the waterline. Did I mention reliable? With remote and electric start I think I can get the motor for about $2,500.00. Truly my plan includes hanging on to the A4 and maybe, just maybe, rebuilding it myself over time, or if I hit Power Ball have Don Moyer do it for me.

But the First Mate has decreed that this year we sail, or the boat goes bye bye. And I agree with her. And the most expedient, cost effective way to do that is with an outboard. So, assuming that I am going to go ahead with this, please chime in with tips, thoughts, etc. on how best to go about it. I assume I ought to 'glas in the backing plate? Any and all inputs are appreciated.

Bryan Howell

 

[Emerald]

Hi,


OK, if you must do this, put a nice big let's say 3/4 inch thick and 2 x 3 feet, epoxy coated ply inside the transom before mounting the outboard motor bracket. I had piece like that in my E-27 from the prior owner, and it worked well. His downfall was not epoxy coating it, and it was starting to soften here and there. To match the curve of the transom, you could do something like use a couple 4mm pieces of Okume, which will bend, and mount/sandwich/clamp them all together with epoxy between the two 4mm pieces and end up with a form fitting thick piece. Hope I said that clearly.


I really hestitate to say this as it is not my style to use these forums to sell anything, but if you are interested, I do still have the motor mount from the outboard that was on my E-27 before I put the A4 back in her. It is a pretty rugged bracket - contact me back channel if you are interested. In a similar vien, I will throw out that in about 3 weeks I will have a spare, completely rebuilt A4 sitting in my garage. Contact me if you are interested in this also. Again, I hate mentioning this stuff, but I am selling this engine for a couple K, not 5k like Moyer. I only mention these because they may be of interest, not because I am looking for an outlet to sell them (there's tons of places here in Annapolis I was planning on advertising these items in locally)


Whatever happens, keep the admiral happy so you keep the boat. That's the most important aspect of this


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

 

[Art Mullinax]

Cutting Board

Bryan,
Something to consider. Rather than plywood which will eventually rot, Go down to the local dollar general store and pick up a 3 dollar cutting board. Get one about 3/8" to 1/2" thick. It's plastic, drills and cuts easy and won't get soft or rot. Layout the holes, drill where needed, slather 5200, bolt in place using large fender washers and go sailing. Maybe you can find "Starboard" locally?
Practice the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Sailor.

 

[chaco]

ALL the industrial plastic suppliers have scrap pieces of all kinds of useful
stuff CHEAP. I think that 3/4" polypropolyne would be a good product to use
for a motor mount support backer. Knowing your local industrial plastic
supplier is an important part of the owner improvement network.
Check out the local Yellow Pages and call around.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Try Mcmaster Carr for plastic sheet. You want something that is not going to deteriorate if oil or gas get on it. Or 5200 or epoxy for that matter. The amount you would need for mounts would be so cheap it would a shame not to.

 

[NateHanson]

Make sure you're not getting a plastic that will fracture under the high local stress of the four mounting bolts. Acrylic and polycarbonate wouldn't be suitable in my opinion.

USplastic.com sometimes has better prices on plastic than Mcmaster

 

[wurzner]

Use Starboard-It's fabricated for Marine Use

I'd look for Starboard. I've used it and it has great UV properties. The shear characteristics are not great, but the compression properties are good. In this case, shear isn't much of a factor. It may however, be difficult to bond in.

shaun

 

[Emerald]

Hi,

For bedding, I would use 4200 instead of 5200. There may be a day you would like to remove this without having to grind it off....


Just thinking of about two years from now when you've had it with the @$#@% outboard and get the A4 running proper


-David
Independence 31
Emerald