heavy weather tactics E 38

[Seth]

well..

Certainly the traveller is a very effective tool for powering and depowering the mainsail. It is generally a dynamic adjustment used in immediate response to puffs and lulls.

I think this discussion has to do with extreme conditions for cruisers, and most, if they even have the hardware to make traveller adjustments under very high load conditions (and many do not), are more interested in getting the right combination of reefed mainsails and heavy weather headsails. True-there is probably a traveller position they will select in these conditions, but they are not likely to be adjusting it in each puff or lull.

In good weather and when racing the traveller is a grreat tool, but the order of magnitude of adjustment needed in these condtions is beyond what a traveller will do-consider the "puffs and lulls" may be between 35 and 45 knots, and there is no reason you are going to be looking to "power up" any of the sails even at the low end of a gale.

At least that is how I am reading this thread...

Cheers,

S

 

[rbaron]

heavy weather tactics

Having kicked off this thread, I see a number of folks mention the use of a storm jib for going to weather in heavy air. Our version of this tactic is to put up our 70% roller furled jib with a deep reefed main and take a few turns on the self furling device leaving us with a high clewed jib that is less than 70%. I can see from this thread that we probably should add a third set of reefpoints to main to acheive greater balance.
One additional problem here [other than the job of striking the regular headsail in a blow and raising the 70% jib] is that furled headsails do not put up the sharpest leading edge and moreover, set up well forward of the mast. Has anyone, especially someone sailing an Ericson 38, explored rigging an additional [removable] forestay [rigged aft of the standard forestay] so that something like a storm staysail can be hoisted closer to the vessel's center of lateral resistance? I would be interested to know how this worked as it has the advantage of not requiring the crew to first unfurl and then strike the regular [100%] headsail. If so, what reinforcement did you use to stablize this additional forestay. Did you run a reinforcing cable or rod from the deck plate to a spot in the hull in the forepeak? I have been told this is wise when setting up a staysail system but I am reluctant to " cut up" the space in the forepeak with such hardware.

P.S. Steve we owned a 1940's era Johnson E scow in the 60's which we sailed on White Bear Lake.. One of our alltime favorite boats. What a gas. But yes, we are talking about differnent animals here.
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason
E 38 Ventura

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Installing a chainplate in the foredeck to attach an inner forestay is what I intend to do. I was recently delivering my boat to a different marina and found myself in 30 knots of wind using a 1/3rd furled large genoa with no main. The problem I saw (aside from the obviously bad sail shape) was the force imposed at right angles to that long headstay. An inner forestay would be much less affected by that force, being so much shorter. After what I saw, I don't think I even want to hoist a storm jib on the headstay. I'd love to be able to hoist that sail on a self tacking arrangement on a removable inner forestay, just because the force generated would be far easier to manage, especially given the fact that such forces accompany conditions that make it less and less likely I'll want to muck about up on the bow.

That said, we're not talking about an easy modification. It will be a little less painful for me, because I'm aleady planning a rework of my entire chain locker to mount a windlass & get rid of the existing pan. This is going to entail glassing in a new floor for the chain locker and other reinforcement for the windlass, which can be incorporated with some method of reinforcement for an inner forestay chainplate. But even without that related project, it would seem very difficult to install adequate reinforcement WITHOUT removing the chain locker pan for access. Any tie rod or cable will need something substantial to connect to at the bottom, and I wouldn't feel comfortable simply using the existing light bulkhead between the v-berth and chain locker for that connection.

It seems other E-38 owners may have aftermarket inner forestays; a picture would be worth a thousand words here.


Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[Seth]

Legit points

Dan,

You make a good point about the loads on the HS, but please keep in mind that a properly tuned and tensioned rig is more than up to these loads. They were designed for it, and depending on your performance objective the boat may be better with a staysail on an inner forestay, or it may be better with a storm jib on the HS. The other variables are how much mainsail are you carrying and how the boat was designed/built in terms of CG/CE (mast vs keel location).

In very general terms on most boats you will net a bit better upwind with a storm jib on the HS (assuming correct lead position and halyard tension of course). Cracked off you may be happier with the staysail.

If you are seeing something scary when sailing with a partially furled genoa, I think you may not have enough tension on the HS.

Fully crewed offshore race boats will usually use a storm jib on the HS in these conditions, and the shorthanded guys will use either a furled headsail or a staysail...

The chainplate for the inner forestay is not too difficult-it will bolt up to the small bulkhead under the V berths just aft of the pan (use a nice big SS plate with a welded eye), and you can use a turnbuckle for adjustment.

Cheers,
S

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Seth,
I think you're right about the tension on the HS. It was actually the amount of bouncing of the HS that surprised me most. And I was so busy furling the thing (almost had to use a winch) that I didn't think to use the hydraulic backstay adjuster. Duh.

But now you've got me curious re: headsail configuration differences with different crew sizes. Are you suggesting the storm jib on HS is more efficient upwind, in spite of the larger slot (or maybe because of it)? I suspect the balance may be better for this boat that way than with the inner forestay jib, because it actually balances much better up to 20 kts. with the big genoa alone, no main. But I'd still love to see how it behaved in 30 kts. upwind with a jib on inner forestay & triple reefed main. If it still went uphill & didn't show a lot of weather helm in that configuration, I think I'd still prefer it for the greater ease of deploying the storm jib.

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[Seth]

Bs, bs, bs

Yeah, when it is breeze on you really need to be sure you have enough tension on the headstay. If you don't have a BS adjuster, your static load must be enough so that you don't get excessive (limit it to 6-7") sag when it is windy, and if you have an adjuster, you need to use it.

If not, you will find all of the components of the HS assembly are being stressed. The constant movement will fatigue things, and the loads will be out of the intended direction (you will have side loading when it should be vertical for example)..

As for balance, you are right-you have some risk of too much weather helm in storm conditions with a reefed main and staysail becuase you may not have enough sail area ahead of the CG. This will vary from design to design and be affected to a large degree on how the boat is loaded (if you have a lot of weight forward it will contribute to weather helm).

I think the absolute performance will be better to windward with a storm jib on the HS, but the broader the angle the less this is an issue, and as you noted you need to weigh this against the comfort and convenience of using the inner forestay and not going out to the bow.

You will need to experiment with this..

Good luck!

 

[Loren Beach]

More "BS"...

For you who either cruise or race off shore, what actually IS a good number for that little round dial on the hydraulic cylinder?

Our boat has a somewhat similar (but shorter) rig to the model in question here. We find that HS tension (and noticeably less sag) seems look/feel right at around 1500#. At 2000# it is better in heavy air, but above that pressure the gains drop off from cranking on the ol' pump handle and the boat can make some odd creaks and groans...


Admittedly the TAFG structure of the E-38 may produce a more rigid structure than our model. (Everything in our interior is tabbed in every which way, but... still....)

Good discussion!

Regards,
Loren

 

[Seth]

Varies from boat to boat

Your numbers are in the ballpark. As you might expect, I don't worry about a few creaks and groans when I am pushing a boat. On the 36 RH's and 38's I used to race we routinely got to 3500-3800 in 18 or more knots of breeze...

Hard to put an exact number, but I would think you could easily manage 2500 on the 34, Loren...

Bendy, Bendy!

 

[windjunkee]

Just thought I'd chip in on the discussion -- We were out on Voice of Reason (E-32) over the weekend of the 2/18-19 racing the "Bishop Rock" doublehand race. We DNF'd about 3 hours into the race when the headsail furling line broke in 35 knots on a close reach. Before that event, we were double reefed, with our #2 North 3DL rolled up to about the size of a 90 % working jib. It was a nicely balanced combination.

I had the Backstay adjuster cranked down and there was still quite a bit of bounce in the headstay, which is probably why the furling line broke.

Interestingly enough, we have, on order, a high wind staysail that is being built by North Sails, but it wasn't ready before this race. We had a spare furling line, but when I went forward to investigate what happened, it would have been a very dangerous work area to try to respool the furling line on the bow with the #2 uncontrolled in those winds and waves coming over the foredeck in those seas.
It was challenging enough just getting the sail onto the deck without losing it. The winds picked up over 40 knots in the gusts as we ran off the wind to recover. Our trusty A-4 could not hold us head to wind in those seas. Once we figured that out, we stopped trying and went for strategy 2. Any tips on an easier way to recover would be appreciated.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32-2, Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[Seth]

Jim knows

Hey Jim,

Howzit?

Sounds like a fun day in Socal!

Were you going upwind in those conditions? Sounds like a good combo if cracked off a bit, but no doubt you would do better uphill with a small jib which is not partially furled-but I am sure you know that..

I think this is what you did, but many people seem to forget that when things go bad and you need to work on the bow in bad conditions, the best thing is to just turn downwind (or a broadish reach if you don't to give up too much of your hard fought progess) before going forward to clean up. The ride will smooth right out, and you can get things sorted much faster this way than you would with the boat charging headlong into a seaway....and much more safely...when everything is cool, sheet in and back uphill you go!

Seems simple, but so many folks will stay on a close-hauled course getting the #*$&^ knocked out them when all is takes is a few minutes going the wrong way...

Just sayin'....

Your heavy air staysail will be nice to have!

 

[windjunkee]

Seth,

We were going upwind -- when the furling line broke, we tacked immediately and then bore off to try and recover. I wouldn't say things smoothed out though. It was the first time I've seen VOR hit 13 knots and actually surf down a wave. Heading downwind was, however, the right thing to do. I was able to (sort of) blanket the headsail with the main and then haul it in without getting too much of the sail dropped into the water.

Yes, it would have been nice to have a small jib. We have a blade #3 but in the doublehand races, I try to minimize my time on the foredeck doing solo sail changes. Its why we put the roller furler on in the first place. Plus, my sail plan for the heavy air over 30 knots, was for the staysail, but the order took longer than I had planned. Oh well, live and learn.
We'll get another shot out to San Nicholas Island in a couple of weeks. Thats a cold race!

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[Seth]

You are livin' the dream!

Jim,

I think it is so great you are doing this with your little 32-2! I hear what you are saying and can't fault your logic..

Keep the stories coming!

Best,

 

[steven]

In my Hunter 27, on two occasions, to go to weather in winds over 40, I used a storm jib, double reefed main, and engine. The engine provided just enough extra lift to keep the nose from falling off in the heavy gusts. Engine was useless on it's own.

Haven't tried it in my E35. Don't know if the A4 will work while heeled.


--Steve

 

[Seth]

Engines are cool.....

.....But I would not want to depend on one to get me off a lee shore!

I have used them the same way many times, so nothing really wrong with it-especially if it is cold out and the crew off watch need to warm up, or if the batteries are low, etc..

If you are having the problem you describe with your Hunter, my guess is you did not have enough mainsail working for you. It could be as simple as sheeting the sail in tighter-this will bring the bow up towards the wind (or keep it from falling off). Or, the jib car could have been too far forward (less likely to cause this problem, but could be a contributing factor).

If you did have it sheeted in enough, then you may have had one more reef than you should have..The point here is the boat was not balanced enough to sail upwind without the aid of the engine, and that is the result of the sail combination not being balanced in size or possibly trim.

The H 27 is a decent design (not an E boat of course!) and if properly set up should take you were you need to go without an engine.

The Ericson will certainly go uphill without an engine is very rough conditions, but as with any boat, the key is having the right balance of sail sizes, shapes and trim.

Nasty weekend here in Chicago!

Cheers,

S

 

[steven]

The Hunter is long gone from my fleet. But had many miles (over water and land) under the keel along the East Coast. Tried a bunch of approaches to heavy weather. In the end, I concluded that upwind, heavy wind and chop, she just had too much freeboard relative to the amount of power that could be developed by sail. Leeway overwhelmed progress. Probably a result of trying to get too much volume out of too little waterline and keel area. Nevertheless, the boat did a proper job under most typical conditions. Very heavy weather was probably beyond the design spec.

I would be surprised is Ericson had similar problem. Haven't tried heavy weather in her, but at 30kts,with double reefed main and 90% headsail, the balance is beautiful; and there seems to be plenty of drive available.

By the way, I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy of not relying on the engine to get off a lee shore. While it certainly is interesting and challenging to be able to do it with only sail, in dangerous conditions, why not use everthing available?

--Steve

 

[Seth]

I hear you

Your point about the freeboard on the Hunter 27 is well taken. I have a bit more knowledge of the 28, 30 and 34 than I do with the 27, so I will gladly take your point..

You may have misunderstood my point about the engine..All I was saying is that given the fact that engines do not always work, I would want to know I have the ability to sail my boat upwind in a gale even if the engine was not functioning. I am definitely not concerned with the interesting and challenging aspects of sailing in a situation like that, and like you, would use every tool at my disposal to get as much searoom as possible as fast as possible.

My only point is that I would not be satisfied if this was the only way I could get my boat to do this. If this was a fact for a given boat, I would not select that boat..but in a real world situation where there is a risk (such as a lee shore) and as long as the engine was running, I would use it to gain whatever benefit I could..

Happy Sunday!

S

 

[wurzner]

I think I get it....

I see the merits to both sides of the conversation and recognized the points everyone was making. I agree you use all options available and HAVE done that in reference to the events in my earlier thread. That being said, I was highly sensitive to the threat of losing an the engine and did not need had it failed. The risk of pulling up "crap" in your fuel tank pick up tube or sucking air typically never happens in good conditions, but is a very real possibility in straight up and down 10 foot swells with wind waves blowing off them.

Use everything you have...just make sure you don't have to "step" off the boat on a lee shore because that was your only option. I believe most boats can be configured properly...I'd want to make sure anything beyond an afternoon day sailor since riding a boat into shore does not sound like a pleasant experience. Through in the fact that we typically deal with 3 knots of current up here and sometimes upwards of 8 gives you a respect of needing the ability to sail out of a bad situation. I am also grateful we RARELY encounter the squall like conditions experienced in the mid west since that can really change your game plan in minutes!

cheers
Shaun

 

[sleather]

I am also grateful we RARELY encounter the squall like conditions experienced in the mid west since that can really change your game plan in minutes!

Been there, done that quite a few times

Prior to having a weather radio on board my earlier Cal 21 we were out on a nice day, becalmed without a motor, and a green wall cloud appeared on the horizon. Could see flapping sails on the horizon, and casually triple reefed the main and hanked on the storm jib. When it hit the winds were 40+ and we had an exciting ride back to the exposed mooring where we hoped to ride it out. When we got there things went totally berserk and we couldn't pick up the buoy. It rained so hard there were no whitecaps and the waves were so big(and steep) we lost wind on the reefed sails in the troughs. We were now on a lee shore close to a continuous weed bed that would have been the end. Was barely able to work to weather by timing the crests and troughs. Fortunately these things don't last that long and 1 hour later we were dry and hoisting a beer at the mooring. They recorded 72mph winds in that storm, at a number of land stations. :eek:

 

[Seth]

There you go-

Shaun,

I could not have said it better! Exactly!

Sleather-cool story. BTW-The Cal 21 was the prettiest of that style of trailer sailers-a very sexy and pretty fast pocket boat. If I lived on a small lake (or anywhere folks race the little under 25' or so Ventures, Catalinas, Hunters, etc.) I would rig up a Cal 21 for racing and go shred!

Later,

 

[Joliba]

E38-200 heavy weather sails

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents about sails in heavy wind. This is now my 3rd season for our 1988 E38-200 with the shoal winged keel, which we sail in Lake Michigan. We've not been out in a blow with big waves yet, but we've sailed several times in steady winds over 30 knots and once in steady winds over 35 knots close to the weather shore. We agree with others that the weather helm on this boat requires carrying a jib if the wind is forward of the beam. We always sail with both main and jib up in these winds.Not only does it keep the boat balanced and able to move well on all points of sail, but it is much less stressful for the rig than sailing without the main up. We added a deep 3rd reef in the main, which works out very well. We keep 3 jiffy reefing lines rigged all the time, as it is hard to deal with moving a reef line while sailing in heavy wind due to our dodger position. For the jib, we have used a partially rolled in 100% jib, at times, if we are expecting not to beat. We have also used a storm jib which was originally for a much smaller boat (Sabre 30.) We tacked it to the stem fitting, aft of the furling drum, on a pennant and raised it free without hanks or a "sleeve" only by tensioning the wire luff with a second jib halyard. We leave the jenny rolled up.A removable inner forestay would be a great thing. Nonetheless, this combination of small storm jib and triple reefed main is well balanced and comfortable even in the heavy gusts. The boat has enough drive to go to windward and point reasonably, though the small storm jib leaves us undercanvassed in less than 35 knots. Let us know what works for you this year.

Mike Jacker