heavy weather tactics E 38

[rbaron]

My brothers and I are in our first year of owning a 1989 E 38-200 and would be interested in how other owners rig these boats for shall we say "more adventurous conditions". Our is a deep keel [6'6"], tall rig model. Currently she is rigged with a Roller Furled working jib [100%] and a full main with two sets of reef points. We also have a 70% Roller furled jib. All sails are in fine shape.
We sail up and down the west coast as well as in the Santa Barbara Channel out to the Channel Islands from Ventura where sailing in Small Craft Warning conditions is common. We usually have 3 -4 folks aboard. Once the wind starts to blow over 30 knots we have had good results off the wind just sailing the jib, reefed down a bit [using jack lines and safety harnesses etc for the crew]with the main struck and securely tied down. But on upwind beats we are still searching for the right balance. Have folks experimented with just running a double reefed main when going to weather in more vigourous conditions? The reefed roller furling jib does not point real well upwind. I'd be grateful for your opinions and insights

Also: Any thoughts on options once conditions get more intense e.g. gale strength and above. How well do e 38's heave to in these conditions using the double reefed main? Is a storm trysail needed? On the Sabre 36 I crewed on, we had a sea anchor that we only deployed once from the bow in what the anometer said was 50 knots. That worked well to keep us safe and relatively stationary although the roll was horrendous. Currently we do not have a sea anchor aboard. I suppose I should add that. Thanks for your thoughts.

B. Baron
Beyond Reason
E 38-200
Ventura Isle Marina

 

[Rocinante33]

Rbaron,

Although I don't have any firsthand experience with it, I might consider a series drogue instead of a sea anchor in storm conditions. A drogue is deployed from the stern cleats so you don't have to go forward in those conditions to deploy it. It may be easier to retrieve also. Here is a link;
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/

 

[rbaron]

heavy weather tactics

Thanks for your tip about the Jordan series Drogue. This looks extremely promising in liu of a sea anchor. Bob baron

 

[rwthomas1]

I really, really try and avoid much over 25kts. Where I am the sea gets pretty ugly once the wind pipes up over that and sailing becomes way more work than fun.

That said, my E38 won't point worth a damn without some main and some jib up. With just the main, reefed or otherwise, I'm going nowhere.

I would think that the 70% jib and a double reefed main would be the ticket for you? My experience is that wave action and wind essentially halt forward progress when beating to weather in the relatively benign conditions I have experienced.

RT

 

[Loren Beach]

Couple of thoughts come to mind... maybe to clarify things (or muddy them up!)...
We all tend to think of "a reef" as some sort of constant, but I have seen the % reduction vary widely in sailboats for the location of that first reef. In theory, your sailmaker positioned it to work best with your boat model, based on wind n sea conditions in your sailing venue. That's the theory, anyway.

Then there is position and amount of draft. We have had various mains re-seamed over the years, and if you are sailing heavy air a lot this might be worth doing on a middle-aged main.

Last fall in a local cruising race we were short tacking in about 25 knots. With one reef the main was setting perfectly. Our old dacron rolled-in 135, not so much.
We do not get enough heavy air to get very proficient at it, but in winds like that I know that a jib built to be a 100% or at least roll down efficiently to that size would be ideal. Actually, in winds steadily above 25 I would prefer a self tacking jib on its own track or on a Hoyt boom.
In order to be self tacking, a jib tends to be cut to an effective % of about 93 to 95%.
My sailmaker is trying to talk me out of going to such a small jib, FWIW.

We are about to buy a new head sail and the only thing we are reasonably sure of is that it will be a light-weight tape drive of around 125%. Sail maker sez that this will roll down to a 105 or so and retain shape to drive to weather.

As to your main, I am convinced that you do need the main to develop drive to punch thru seas when you get above close reaching. A good sized first reef or just go ahead and put in the #2 reef.

Regards,
Loren

 

[Bob Robertson]

Hi Bob,

We sail our boat on Lake Superior. From time to time we get strong winds like you are describing.

We bought our boat in 1988. We're on our second main.

We had a third reef point put into both our original and our new main.

Of course, there are only two reef lines, but there are times that we really appreciate the third reef point and it's easy enough to move one of the lines so we can utilize it. We could add a couple of hooks to the second reef line to make utilizing the third reef point even easier, but we haven't felt the need.

We have a roller furling 150 genoa. We get a full mix of wind speeds from zero to forty plus. The shape is workable with a fraction of it unfurled in strong winds, not great shape mind you, but workable.

We also carry a drouge, but we have only used it a couple of times and then it was primarily deployed to practice deploying and retrieving it.

Enjoy,
Bob

 

[Blue Chip]

Just to follow Lorens numbers...our 32 has a self tending jib..97% headsail and a 1 and a half reef point on the mail. Tis does well for us, although we have never seen 30 knots. FYI.
Yes we have only one reef on the main, but it is not a one or two,it';s in between. I assume that is unusual...but effective.

 

[erobitaille]

Old Sailers heavy weather trick

In rough heavy seas a quick method to calm the boat is a warp. I used a once in a good blow in the middle of the night when we were coastal sailing on the west coast. I kept my old 1/2" main sail halyard 130' feet or so tie off each end on your aft port and starboard cleats play it out behind the boat. Much easier than a drogue or sea anchor.

 

[Sam Vickery]

Warp?

I have not heard the term "warp". Please explain. I can use all the help I can get.

Thanks,

Sam

 

[rbaron]

heavy weather tactics

So far folks this has been and educational discussion. Sam, a warp is just a line trailed behind the vessel often in a loop to create drag. I know J Adalard Coles advocates this in his book Heavy Weather Sailing. It certainly will be less work than setting/retrieiving a series drogue. Anyone else have experience with this? It appears from my online search that retrieving the series drogue is a bit effortful.
The idea of a third set of reef points had not occurred to me but it sounds sensible provided that the boom is wide enough to allow placement of a third fairlead for the added reefing line [I am not crazy about trying to set up this line in a blow only on an as needed basis-I would want it preset].
As I mentioned, over the years I have had very good success just running a reefed headsail alone in strong wind but usually I just try this on beam reaches and further off the wind. We used this tactic to good effect on a five hour beam run in 35 knots last fall. Thanks for all these thoughtful comments. Bob Baron
Beyond Reason E 38-200

 

[Mark F]

Hi Bob,

In the book "Sir Peter Blake An Amazing Life" (great read) it is written that Blake and his crew were finishing a non stop around the globe race in a gale and crossed the finish line (braking the around the world non stop speed record) trailing all the chain and extra line they could find on-board between the two catamaran hulls. They needed to slow down the cat so they wouldn't pitch-pole and not finish!

A friend recently told me about using this technique and adding an anchor or two to the middle of the loop to hold the "warp" down.

 

[AleksT]

First, I have never sailed in a situation that needed some sort of warp or drouge to slow me down.
I am curious about the use of an anchor on a "warp" line.
My understanding of the use of a warp is that the line floats on the water and is long enough that it extends to the backside of the wave behind you in the part of the wave where the water is flowing down and backwards to the motion of the wave direction.
Adding an anchor would pull it the line below the wave and make it a drouge which is just adding more wetted surface drag, and have all of the problems of a drouge for retrieval.
I am not asking for what is the most effective solution, since that will be dependent on the conditions and the individual boat, only a clarification of terms.

 

[upnorthfrank]

I've thought about trying the tow strap I carry around in my truck, it's a little short though. I could tie warp ends around the hooks on the strap ends etc. Think it maybe a little slicker though to get bulk strap cut to the appropriate length w/ eyes sewn in for some hardware. I'm thinking a 2 or 3" nylon strap might create more resistance than standard braided or three-strand warps?!?

Just a thought...I may give it a try though w/ my tow strap, just for funzies

 

[Seth]

sailing vs surviving

It seems like there are 2 discussions at play here. Warps, drougues, etc. will certainly slow the boat down when broad reaching/running with little or no sail up, and this can be a good tactic to survive a really bad patch of weather-provided you have the searoom, time or inclination to do so.

I was under the impression this was about sailing in these conditions, and how does the boat go uphill in this stuff...If you are off a lee shore, a warp or drouge will just delay the ultimate grounding or worse.

The boat can be made to make progess uphill in much worse conditions than 30-40 knots with the right sails up.

I do agree with the statement that a double reefed main and 70% jib should be a good combo for upwind in 30-35 knots or so, but as Loren says, you need to have a reasonable % reefed, and the headsail must be properly set in terms of lead position and halyard tension, or you will go nowhere fast (and be very unbalanced).

Specifically, to answer the question, if you choose to sail with a deep reefed main only, you can probaly reach, even close reach effectively, but getting a good balance will be a challenge, and real progress uphill will be nil. You can probably hold your ground like this in terms of not making much leeway, and keep yourself off that lee shore, but that is about all.

To go uphill in anything above 40, use a storm jib (again, halyard and lead position are important to be effective), and 2-3 reefs in the main. A very deep 2nd reef or a conventional 3rd reef (or for that matter, a trysail) and storm jib should keep you going uphill well into a strong gale.

Generally speaking, a trysail is about the size of a 3rd reef, and most coastal boats drop the main after 2 reefs and if uphill is the direction they will go to the trysail.

If you are reaching at all, you will do very well with just the headsail (70% or storm jib depending on wind and sea conditons). Just drop the main and off you go.

Upwind is where having some main and some headsail working together are important to get the balance in terms of CE vs CG..

Hope this helps!

Sail on...
S

 

[wurzner]

First Time Sail on SF Bay in ~35 Knots

I purchased my boat in Alameda and spent a weekend down there sailing before decomissioning the boat. We had to wait one day out for a while until winds dropped below 35 knots since even that wasn't ideal...but at least manageable. My boat came with a triple reefed main and a high cut clew 90%. We reefed it in to about 70, still had a good sheeting angle, and made really good progress upwind. SF bay can be pretty step with close fetch so maintaining power is critical...we had no problems.

We were out in a large race a few years ago. NOAA called for 35, but the RC said be prepared for worse...they were right. What started out as 15-25 hit 45 with gusts to the low 60's right at the downwind mark and we had to beat into back part way. I had a new mainsail put on the boat with 2 reefs, but they are really deep. The 38 has a really powerful rig and I find the 1st reef to have too narrow a wind range. So my 2nd reef is where a 3rd would be. With motor running and 2nd reef, we make around 2.5 knots into 10 swells with wind waves ontop..not fun.

Before I get slammed, this was a long race and I NEVER would have gone out if I had any idea, but I was in the midst. We did abandon the race, made it around Possession Point and then did around 14 knots downwind taking lee around Mukilteo on the way back to Everett. I will say the spray off the bow downwind looked more like a ski boat and the work on the wheel had a very small window, but we finished the day with not casualties less one person who was INCREDIBLY sick.

With the right sail plan, the boat is fun in most conditions up to 25-30 knots and previously mentioned. I would say quartering seas with a spinnaker can be a lot of work though, but I have only had to deal with that when racing otherwise I take a more comfortable line.

 

[rbaron]

more heavy weather

Seth
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes there are two issues under discussion. 1. Survival tactics and 2. Going uphill in say 30 plus knots.
What I am hearing in this thread is that the use of a jordan series drogue from astern is a good survival tactic. Also noted is your notion that heaving to on just a deep reefed main may work ok for holding position [but it seems to me someone on deck at the tiller will be needed]. Some one suggested towing warps. But I believe this is a tactic not endorsed by all experts. I encountered another threat on this site [http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...erience-with-sea-anchors-or-warps-11528.html]. In this other thread there is endorsement of the use of bow parachutes [paratec is one company] by some deep water cruisers and a limited debate re series drogue vs chute. The bow rigged chute has the advantage of largely stopping the vessels motion. The series drogue however is easier to set and retrieve. Has anyone following this thread had actual experience, using warps, trying to heave to in strong stuff using both reefed main and backed jib with wheel lashed? or the use of a series drogue with the E 38?. I am wondering if a double reefed main is too much sail in say 40-50 knots with a backed reefed jib with this vessel? I'd really like to hear from anyone who has actual experience using these tactics.
On topic 2 I am hearing fair consensus that a smaller [dedicated 70%] jib with a deep reefed main makes the most sense for beating to weather. Thanks for everyone''s input. I am exploring the kit version of a Jordan Drogue. It would make for good peace of mind. Worst case sea scenarios often don't announce themselves until you need the right gear right then.
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason

 

[Seth]

All good

I think any or all of the "drag" tactics should be feasible-you really need to try them out to see which is best.

As for heaving to, a backed jib and deep reefed main with the wheel locked will do the trick-the exact amount of sail area up will depend on the wind speed..

For true gale conditions, a 70% jib and 2 reefs might still be too much sail, and I would strongly suggest a true storm jib in your quiver....

A storm jib and either a trysail or 3rd reef is what you will want if really trying to mnake progress above 40 or so knots..

Good sailing!

S

 

[mggilmore]

On my old boat, a 71 Ericson 27, I had a set up with a triple reefed main and a 65% storm sail that worked really well a very heavy weather. It wasn't often that I had to use this configuration but when I did the boat still made effective headway into heavy seas and was reasonably balanced. What I mean by balanced is that my E27 had a tendancy to point up when there was too much wind for the sails, this set up let me keep her on-track in heavy winds. Good luck with your decision.

 

[rbonilla]

sounds like balance is key...great thread btw....

 

[sleather]

sounds like balance is key...great thread btw....

Speaking of balance, I haven't seen the traveler mentioned yet as a very effective heavy weather tool. IMHO it's commonly overlooked by most casual sailors as a way to augment reefing the main. I spent 25 years racing 1 designs(E scows) with no reefing, and the traveler guy really got a workout in heavy air.