Lazy Jacks

[Kim Schoedel]

Ok, a few months ago I decided to save some $ and get an alternative mainsail management system. This system does what it is supposed to do but I am not pleased with it. My expectations were higher than its function. Taking the main down solo is the issue and there just doesn't seem to be any thing out there that does it better than a bunch of lines hanging down to capture the main (lazy jack style), especially when you get a wind shift.

Has anyone out there designed their own or do you think it's best to just step up to the ol' pay window and get the all in one major brand name kit?

My new name is "The Main Sail Wrestler"

 

[CaptnNero]

Dutchman

...Taking the main down solo is the issue and there just doesn't seem to be any thing out there that does it better than a bunch of lines hanging down to capture the main (lazy jack style), especially when you get a wind shift....

Our first two boats had lazy jacks so we know them pretty well. Our current boat came with the Dutchman system. I must say it is easier to work with. We no longer have to deal with the lazy jacks catching on the battens and I don't miss that. The only down side is that it takes a few extra minutes to thread the two Dutchman lines in the mainsail during spring re-fitting. For the winter haulout it's trivial to pull them back out. You just loosen a screw for each one and yank on the slippery fishing line stuff.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Do-it-your-self lazyjacks

Kim, Years ago I fitted three sets of lazyjacks on our boat making them myself patterned after the Harken system. Look in a 2000 or older Harken Catalog for their illustration of the kit installed, add additional ones patterned on the first until you feel you have enough. My boom is 13 feet long and the original three sets were not enough to keep the aft end of my full battened sail from sagging into the cockpit. I recently rebuilt and repainted the mast, boom and spreaders including the addition of a fourth set at the rear. The sum total of all four was waaaay less than a new single Harken set. Hint: Use synthetic line from the upper attachment to the mast for the first set rather than the vinyl-clad stainless steel cable they use. It's way less weight up there and reduces chafe to nothing at that fitting. Good luck, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

 

[Glyn Judson]

Lazyjacks and raising the main

Kim and all, I forgot to mention how we raise the main through our lazyjacks. When leaving the marina, we head into the wind (already doing so as we leave) and release the main sheet a lot. Then, timed with the normal rocking of the boat coordinated with any wind, we selectively raise one batten at a time through the lazyjacks until the main is raised. Actually it's pretty easy and in no way a pain or difficulty. We have keyholes with twist fasteners in our sail cover that the lazyjacks feed through. Also they do not pull forward to the mast when raising the sail. My wife Marilyn single hands our boat and I want everything operable from the cockpit for safety other than removing the sail cover and attaching the halyard, the last two usually done in the slip. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA.

 

[CaptnNero]

dutching it

...we head into the wind (already doing so as we leave) and release the main sheet a lot. Then, timed with the normal rocking of the boat coordinated with any wind, we selectively raise one batten at a time through the lazyjacks until the main is raised. Actually it's pretty easy and in no way a pain or difficulty. ...

For the Dutchman:

Release the main sheet alot and roughly head into the wind, raising the main continuously.

 

[footrope]

I have homemade lazy jacks - courtesy of the PO of the boat. I haven't changed them yet, even though they let the sail flop off the aft end of the boom. In fact the middle sags a bit too, especially if there is a good wind and the heading wanders or the wind shifts while taking the sail down.

The thing that is nice is that they are retractable. They retract on each side to hook on the mast-mounted winches. There's one halyard winch on each side, just at boom height. The lazy jacks are stowed for hoisting and before covering the furled sail. Mods to the sail cover were not required. There are 5 small blocks involved, some padeyes, plus many feet of 5/16" braided line, and a cleat on the aft side of the mast below the boom.

If you're interested I can post some pictures next week. The ones I currently have of the rig are not going to help.

I have used dutchman systems on several charter boats, too. Once you get used to them they seem to work just as well. Not sure about the holes in the sail - what the long term problems might be.

I'm really still scratching my head about how to improve my system. I have a list of rig items I can do, but I'll probably make do with minor improvements until I decide to take it all down for new standing rigging and paint.

 

[CaptnNero]

...
The thing that is nice is that they are retractable. They retract on each side to hook on the mast-mounted winches. There's one halyard winch on each side, just at boom height. The lazy jacks are stowed for hoisting and before covering the furled sail. Mods to the sail cover were not required. There are 6 small blocks involved, some padeyes, plus many feet of 5/16" braided line, and a cleat on the aft side of the mast below the boom.
...
I have used dutchman systems on several charter boats, too. Once you get used to them they seem to work just as well. Not sure about the holes in the sail - what the long term problems might be.
...

The lazy jacks on our previous boat were a clever single line system that was retractable. There was too much friction to use the retraction for regular sail raising. However it was nice to retract when it was time for the winter cover. I would add enough slack to loop the lines around the tack reefing hooks and then snug it up for the winter. Then in the spring it only took a few minutes to snug and even the system into it's useful position.

When we got Kokomo two years ago, I had to replace the two Dutchman lines but I don't know how old they were then. They use about a 300# test UV protected fishing line which is easy to get near big fish areas but needs to be ordered elsewhere. I inspected the lines this summer after about a year and a half and didn't find any issues. As far as the holes in the sail they are reinforced with small plastic reinforcing plates which I didn't find any wear issues with either. besides reinforcing the tiny holes, They also protect the sail from contact with the lines.

One nice thing about the Dutchman system is that the main tends to mostly fold itself guided by the Dutchman lines once you are consistent about how you use it. Generally you do end up with a more orderly flake stack.

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Photo's would help

Craig, If is not too much trouble, I would appreciate photo's of your system.

Thanks to all for your input.

 

[hcpookie]

Whilst participating in the race committee during last week's regatta (was a blast, BTW), I was able to inspect the RC boat's dutchman system.

They used weed eater line for the vertical runs. Just so happens this is the same weed eater line I purchased from Home Depot last year... the grey "Titanium" weed eater line.

It is incredibly robust material and I'm certain it has good UV performance, since disentigrating weed eater line would be a bad thing. I have no idea what pound-test it is, but this Titanium line is able to cut through all the brush junk that I've thrown it into... definitely on the high end.

 

[CaptnNero]

line spec

...

It is incredibly robust material and I'm certain it has good UV performance, since disentigrating weed eater line would be a bad thing. I have no idea what pound-test it is, but this Titanium line is able to cut through all the brush junk that I've thrown it into... definitely on the high end.

I'm sure that would be fine as long as it is the rounded edge stuff. I wanted longevity and Home Depot didn't have anything as thick as the 300# fishing line spec'd by the Dutchman site.

 

[rwthomas1]

My E38 came with a lazyjack setup installed. There are no blocks, just ferrules on the mast, thimbles on the lines and cleats at the gooseneck that allow the setup to be adjusted or pulled completely out of the way by looping the whole deal around the cleat by the gooseneck. I leave them up/deployed all the time. I would guess that they snag a batten about 10% of the time, but its really not a big deal once you get used to hauling the main up while watching whats happening. Once I got the lazyjacks adjusted correctly the sail self-flakes with only minimal tugging at the roach as it comes down. The first few feet I pull on the roach of the sail as I release it just to keep it lined up and get the first batten laid correctly. After that the sail seems to have "memory" and just drops in a nice neat pile. My sailcover has keyholes to accomodate the lazyjacks. All in all I think it works quite well but that is what I am used to. I am sure the Dutchman system works well too once you get the hang of it. Its all personal preference I suppose. RT

 

[CaptnNero]

...I am sure the Dutchman system works well too once you get the hang of it. Its all personal preference I suppose. RT

The point I was making is that there is nothing to "get the hang of" with the Dutchman since there is nothing for the battens to catch on, period. It is simply easier to operate than lazy jacks. Then when dropping the main since the lines are threaded through the sail it can only fold in particular directions.

On the other hand, if my next boat has lazy jacks I won't bother to replace them. But if I was installing a system from scratch as in the original post, I'd choose a Dutchman.

 

[rwthomas1]

Never used one so I couldn't say... I'll have to take your word on it. I suppose that the mainsail has to be modified to use a Dutchman? Have to put the little holes in it? Take sail off and have sailmaker modifiy? If so, in the middle of the sailing season, then I would choose lazyjacks. If season end is approaching, like it is for us now, then no big deal, let the loft deal with it over winter. RT

 

[Seth]

The major brand kit-which is the Doyle Stackpack, is certainly IMHO the best of the bunch for an all-in-one system. Why? Little things like the lazy jack tension adjusters at the tack of the sail, the way the sail cover is actually sewn onto the sail, so it lays flat (ish) against the sail when being used-rather than billowing out in the breeze like the other, less sophisticated types, which use a "cradle cover" that is not really part of the sail. This a cadillac system, but does need some fine tuning on each boat for optimal functioning.

Lazy jacks vs Dutchman: I like the Dutchman for all the reasons given in this thread-but I see this as a day/coatsal cruising system at most. The fishing line is not as robust as the lazy jack lines, and is hard to replace while at sea. A flying gybe in 30 knots or so can easily tear the thing.

I WOULD use one unless I was doing serious offshore work-in which case lazy jacks are my choice...

Peanut gallery, OUT!

s

 

[CaptnNero]

...
I WOULD use one unless I was doing serious offshore work-in which case lazy jacks are my choice...

Peanut gallery, OUT!

s

Seth, thanks for checking in, especially on the offshore aspect. The point about repairing the Dutchman at sea is a good one. Mine has a clothesline type setup so you can easily reel the topping lift fittings down to the aft boom. However, one would still need to be on tippy-toes for a while to re-thread the new line or have the unwieldy boom down in the cockpit and I can see one could easily lose those little screws and nuts while in a seaway. I've dealt with some 20 foot swells for a few hours between islands and I can appreciate the challenges there.

When I replaced the line in ours I noticed that the worn/weak point was where the line attached to the topping lift fitting. I think with some more thought one could make a less stressful, unkinked clamp there.

I expect to be keeping this vessel a very long time. When one of those lines I replaced last year gives way I'll let the forum know. I think I put in 400# test instead of the 300# called for since it was an easy click of the mouse when I ordered it from Boaters World. When I asked about 300# line in the local fishing stores in the middle of the Chesapeake they just looked at me funny and suggested I try an Ocean City store instead. I heard some muttering about what I thought I was going to catch around here too.

Meanwhile, I've got some peanut gallery watching to do myself elsewhere...

 

[Richard Elliott]

I've installed EZ Jacks (see ad in Cruising World) on my last two boats, currently on an E34. They retract to clips on pendants at the mast which release by simply tugging on the lines. They work beautifully with full batten mains in that the battens do not catch on them. With conventional mains, the main needs to be raised slowly watching that each batten is in the pocket of the lazy jacks.

 

[Ray Rhode]

Kim,

Don't know about the cost of the Doyle system but I installed a similar system by Mack Sails (www.macksails.com). It is called the Mack Pack and works very well. Like the Doyle system no modification of the sail is required. The kit is complete down to the tap needed to cut the threads for the cheek blocks, etc. The use Harken blocks and Sta-Set line. The cover is made of Sunbrella. It dosen's work as well at their video shows but it works well. It might work better with a better main than I have. A friend has one installed on his E32.


Ray Rhode
S/V Journey
E35-III, #189

 

[Seth]

Correction

The Doyle Stackpack DOES require modification of the sail (if you are going to use an old sail). This is what makes it better (IMHO) , and more expensive . The cover is sewn onto the bottom section of the main so it does not billow out in the breeze, and lays flat against the sail. This is the key difference-it is less suitable for adptaing old sails (but doable-except it is only worth it if the sail in question is EXCELLENT), but a great deal if you by the whole package with a new sail.

S

 

[Loren Beach]

But my foot is Loose....

Regarding the "stack pack" and any imitators of same, how does this integrate into a loose-foot main sail? We have used a loose-foot main for the last several years and I would be unwilling to return to slugs on the boom and the old shelf foot setup...


Loren

 

[Seth]

Stackpack

The stackpack CAN work with a loosefoooted sail. No issue while sailing, but at rest, it is slightly different cosmetically in that the cover is not held in the boom slot, and rises slightly above it. But it does work-no difference in functionality. This was my experience when I was selling them..
S