Lazy Jacks

[Loren Beach]

Stack Pack ruminations

Thanks Seth.
I just looked through the install instructions at the Doyle site, and I cannot see how my two reef lines would integrate into their setup.
I long ago took off the factory track on the side of the boom and have the reef lines going up through the reef-eye/grommet and back down and under the boom and then into a bowline around the part that goes to the sheave on the end casting of the boom. Our prior boat did have boom slugs and we had slots in the shelf foot for each reef line. No need for such slots with the present loose-foot main. :nerd:

I have occasionally crewed on an E-33 for the last decade with EZ-Jax (r) and have to say that they work *very* well. Best of all they retract to the sides of the mast when not needed.

On a minor note, the Doyle instructions mention leading the halyard to a point on the stack pack itself-- we have a rod vang and always lead it to the end of the boom and sock it up hard when at the dock to control boom movement.

Cheers,
Loren

 

[Seth]

Stackpack

Loren,

Your reefing set up works perfectly with the system. The lines come from the end of the boom (all inside the cover, of course), through the reef gromments, and straight down and around the boom (but all inside the cover). No conflict here at all.

As far as anchoring the main halyard-the idea is that the shackle stays on the head of the main at all times, and the tail is looped back through a snap hook about 1/3 of the way back. When you want to go sailing, you unzip the cover and free the halyard from the hook as you do so, and you are good to go. There is no requirement that you leave the halyard attached, though. I see no problem securing the boom from swinging with the standard attachment, but you can certainly continue to do as you have-you just will not have the convenience of not having to attach the halyard. Hope this helps....BTW-I am not trying to sell a Stackpack-just explain it.

Cheers,
S

 

[Guy Stevens]

Ok Tooot

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/tamers.htm

This is a link to an article that I wrote for good old boat. Several years later I still haven't found anything better.


The article should get you going with a great set of lazy jacks for far less than a comercial set. Also the set you make will be customized to your boat! Work great like the countless sets that I have installed on other boats, require no modifications of any sails or sail covers, and if you build them out of good quality materials will last for over 50K miles. Oh and make sure that you put the blocks outboard on the spreaders about 6" or so like the article says, not on the mast. No point in listening to that incescent banging all night.

Although I hate to be contrary to anything Seth says, my milage varies significantly. I have a Doyle stack pack, and am waiting till I make a sail cover to hot knife the thing off and throw it in the trash. No way that it is an offshore capable piece of gear. On my boat it isn't even a functional piece of gear, whoever designed it and put it on this boat had no clue what they were doing. Completely redoing the boom and the mainsail track would probably make it work, but why do that when lazy jacks will work better? And I can keep the boom where it should be instead of 6"+ higher?

Guy

 

[Seth]

Who, me?

Guy,

Bummer about the Stackpack on your 46! I don't remember -do you have the old Esta-Es from Chicago? I know this boat went somewhere and was heard from on this site, but I don't remember where. I DO know we installed one of these on that boat, and at least while it was here, it was very well recieved and seemed to work well..

Hoping this is not yours-but it is certainly true that earlier versions were not as good, and sometimes we got lemons-these had to be redone at the loft before they were functioning properly.

In any case, I sure don't have any intention of disagreeing with your conclusions-other than to mention that many folks, me included, have sailed a lot of offshore miles with them and been very happy.

Of course, that can also be said about the Dutchman, so who knows???

Thanks for the post!

S

 

[footrope]

I will take a few pictures of my installation today and post them with an explanation. I have read over Guy's posting and article, and I have come to appreciate several things about his design, at least as compared to the installation on the 'Project. As I look at the differences between the two, and the known the shortcomings in mine, I think I will be able to capture a fair comparison.

I do have an observation about some of the Stack-Pack type installations, or more generally, the integral sailcover designs that capture the mainsail in a cloth trough on top of the boom. Two of the installations I have had significant observer experience with were executed on boats with booms that were so high off the deck that a ladder was needed to reach the headboard to disconnect the halyard. That means that the sailors seldom disconnect the halyard or otherwise secure it away from the mast and spreaders. So the halyard whacks the mast in the wind. Another result of that height issue is that they seldom zip up the sailcover. Besides exposure to sunlight (Ok, not as much of a problem here in the NW), I can forsee a time when that sail is going to get loose in a blow. My only message here is that with a tall rig and a high boom location (or a short sailor) there are additional things to consider when dreaming about those systems. They look like they work pretty well with the sail down, though.

I gotta go take those pics before the rain starts up.

 

[Captron]

Mack Pack

We installed a Mack Sails 'Mack Pack' system on Kismet after discarding the previous owner's lazy jack system. I did the install myself and I must say that the kit was very complete including a video of the installation process.

I especially like the fact that I can zip (or unzip) the sail cover from anywhere along the boom.

I leave my all rope halyard connected. With the sail down, I pull enough slack to cleat it off to the boom about 4 feet back from the mast. Then I finish zipping the cover and cleat the halyard off hard ... no banging.

We converted our old mainsail to full batten which helps it drop and flake cleanly. It doesn't snag going up either.

With this system, putting the sail cover on is so easy that I actually zip it closed every day when we're out cruising.

The old way, we took off the sail cover, stowed it and it never went back on unless we were going to be stationary for a while ... we cruise the Bahamas from November through May ... the old sail cover stayed stowed and never saw daylight until we got home.

I like the Mack Pack system well enough to recommend it.

When I rigged it, I did not rig it so the lazy jacks could be retracted to the mast ... that's a mod I will make this year but it's more for the look of things while sailing than anything else. It'll look cleaner.

 

[footrope]

An example of a poor lazy jack design

Well, the comparison of this installation to Guy's design, or the Mack Pack with or without the integrated sail cover will be short - this L-J system was clearly designed and installed without much regard to how the sail actually lays on the boom. The sail has short leech battens, which makes too few and wrong placement of the legs that much worse. It doesn't help that the sail is shot either. That takes care of the first photo.

Photo two shows how high above the first spreader the forward legs attach to the mast. Not the worst idea, but probably not as good as a pair of blocks on or near the lower spreaders.

Photo three is the detail of the cheek block on the boom. See how the retractable feature is just another source of chafe on the sail? To the right is the mast and the L-J line runs to a boom mounted block and then to a cleat on the mast. Retraction and stowage is a matter of releasing the line and pulling the port side forward to the winch on the mast, then the starboard side. Then take all the slack out and clear it away from the sail and cleat it. The cross-over is done via a block at the aft end of the boom.

Photo four shows the retracted position with the sail cover installed and the bungees on to prevent the blocks from hitting the mast.

So, I need a serious redesign. A little magic dust to make the sail like new. I think I would need about 5 attach points on the boom to make lazy jacks work with this sail. A new sail - especially a laminate or with full battens might work with 3 or 4.

I hope this helps!

 

[stbdtack]

I too ditched my stackpack. I found I still had to climb up and compact the sail so the zipper could be pulled shut. It always seemed to get stuck on some edge of the leech that was not pushed down fully.

I just recently made a set of retractable lazy jacks using 7/64 black Amsteel. The stuff is really small but has a breaking strength of 1400lbs. The urethane coating makes it slippery so less wear on the sail. The stuff is so easy to splice and I used nylon thimbles so they are quiet and dont scratch the mast. I have a full batten main so it works really well. When I dont need them, they go forward to hooks at the gooseneck and pretty much disappear.

The convenience of just dropping the main without going forward to secure it on the boom makes a huge difference especially when I'm singlehanding.

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Thanks a bunch everyone for your input and photo's. I am working with a fellow sailing buddy to design and install my own lazy jack style. He has put together 3 of these now and is brave enough to go up-up and away to install the thing.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Ben I like your idea a lot, I used 1/8 Amsteel for my spin pole bridles, it is good to 2000lbs. I have a 2 leg lazy jack setup now that works okay but could be better. The supports go into the mast at the same spot I would like to be able to add running backs for racing. I am thinking of adding T-ball plates up there so I can drop out the lazy jacks and drop in runners when I want to go race. I will have 10 guys on the boat which should be enough to furl a main... How many legs did you put in your setup? Can you take a picture?

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Ok, just ordered a "Jiffy Jax" kit for the boat. I will let all of you know how the install goes and how it works. Need to find someone that has the guts to go up, up and away, to get those cheek blocks installed!!!!

 

[tenders]

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/tamers.htm

This is a link to an article that I wrote for good old boat. Several years later I still haven't found anything better.

This is a great article. I remember reading it the first time, later had to ask GOB for the reprint because I misplaced that issue, then I lost the reprint. I've been getting more and more interested in installing a lazy jack and have meaning to track it down again. This allowed me to do it while maintaining a semblance of my pride.

 

[stbdtack]

Hey Ted, sorry havent been online much so i just saw your post

The amsteel works great. I wanted to have just 2 legs as well but after trying every position I found i needed 3 to make it work well (and thats with full battens) I thought of using the running back slots as well but I already had strap-eyes for the old Stack-Pack at about the same height.

I really like being able to pull them fwd to the gooseneck after the sail is tied. No need for slots in the sail cover.

I will get some pics of the lazyjacks this weekend and post them.

BTW, your vang, backstay and traveller mods look terrific.

Just finished my windlass and washdown install, yippee

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Thanks Ben. I gotta see the windlass install. Its on my list but the glasswork needed to get a separate watertight anchor locker plus the $$ for the windlass itself has kept it lower on the list. Have you done a racing with the boat this year? My Lazy Jacks have 2 legs but I think I am going to 3 as a winter project. I need a new sailcover and think if I set the lazyjacks up like yours with amsteel I wont need the slots as you say. I often walk them fwd and hook them around the reef hooks so I can hoist cleanly and dont have to look at them wehn I'm sailing.

 

[Kim Schoedel]

I installed the Jiffy Jax and all went very well. Ran out of time so didn't get the boat out of the slip for the real test. There was a steady side wind at the dock, of course, the wind aways blows when you have a boat project!

I will update all on the function later.

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Finally got out Sunday and tried my new Jiffy Jax system. Works just fine and dandy!! Get to do more solo sailing now!

 

[tenders]

Note that the link to Guy Stevens' article has changed to:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/tamers.asp

(the trailing "htm" has been changed to "asp")

Guy, if you're still following this thread, there's a contradiction between the diagram and the text and I wonder what was really meant.

In the diagram at the beginning of the article, attached to the mast is the cleat, and its bottom is shown tilting slightly towards the STERN of the boat.

However, in the text, you say "I've found that moving the bottom of the cleat slightly toward the BOW of the boat makes cleating the support segments a lot easier than an absolutely vertical cleat."

Which do you prefer?

Thanks,
tenders
(halfway done with the project)

 

[Guy Stevens]

Slightly Foreward

Slightly Forward like in the text.

The photo that got used for that portion of article was not quite right, in all this time you are the only person to catch that!

Guy

 

[Mort Fligelman]

Dutchman System

I had a Dutchman installed on my old Siedelmann 299 in 1987.....it worked flawlessly all of those years......The original lines were a soft nylon about 3/32...those were replace in about 1991 with the new monofiliment line.....I purchased them from my sailmaker, so I really have no tech data on them.

When I decided to rig the boat for total singlehanding (found it very boring) I took matters a step further and rigged a downhaul for the main by installing larger shackles on the slides and running a line fron the top slide through the shackles to a block on the base of the mast, back to a block on the goosneck, ending in a midboom cleat.....

All I had to do was come up into the wind and tighten the main sheet.....release the halyard.....again tighten the mainsheet, Pull the downhaul, and the sail came down neatly flaked on the boom.....I had the boat out in some very wild conditions on Lake Michigan......where a North east wind of 20 Knots or more can create huge waves of 10 feet and more, but spaced about three to five feet apart.....The system worked perfectly through 2005.....I sold the boat and now have a 1987 E35-3....new sails are being built as this is writen......they definitly include a Dutchman....

I am Positively sold on the system....

 

[tenders]

Slightly Forward like in the text.

The photo that got used for that portion of article was not quite right, in all this time you are the only person to catch that!

Guy

Guy - just finished installing the lazy jacks. Virtually no adjustment was necessary -- they work great with your recommended locations on the boom.

The one weakness they have, and this is not a reflection on your design, is that they depend on the strength of the little blocks up on the spreaders, which are clearly NOT SUFFICIENT TO HOLD UP THE BOOM. In other words, using the jacks without first securing the toppinglift is going to have adverse consequences.

(No, I didn't learn this the hard way.)

Thanks!