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Leave main halyard at mast or run back to cockpit ?

Kenneth K

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I just did a blog post about redoing my running rigging. Lines were already left, but I added some more. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/running-rigging-redux.825/

I agree that it's a lot of work. If you have a dodger, the dodger becomes one of the central factors in planning location of the winches, rope clutches, and where the lines pass through the dodger.

Also, zipper access to the under deck is essential--especially if you're using butyl tape as a sealant. Butyl tape requires repeated re-tightening of the fasteners to squeeze out all the excess.. It probably took three rounds of tightening on the deck of organizers, and six on the winches, over a period of several weeks (or even months in cool weather).

If you're happy with lines led forward, it might save you a ton of time to keep it that way.

I will say I'm happy with my system though. I reefed sails several times last seasonal-all from the cockpit (singlehand, no wheel pilot). I only needed to go forward to add sail ties to the reefed bundles, and even then, not all the way forward to the mast.
 
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goldenstate

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
More and more I’m thinking on my boat with 300 sq ft main , I need to be reefing at 10-12 knots ( with just me on board ) and reef 2 at 15 for neutral helm. I’m always sailing with too much weather helm . My wife wants to get a rowing machine so she can train for it .
I think this is a good observation, especially for your boat.

All of us with the 32-3 boats have a larger LOA hull vs your 33, but your main is 50% larger (303sf in 33RH vs. 207sf in 32-3) mains.

With your first reef in you probably carry more main sail than I do in my boat with a un-reefed main.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
I think this is a good observation, especially for your boat.

All of us with the 32-3 boats have a larger LOA hull vs your 33, but your main is 50% larger (303sf in 33RH vs. 207sf in 32-3) mains.

With your first reef in you probably carry more main sail than I do in my boat with a un-reefed main.
Main is larger but with fractional rig, jib is smaller but overall yes it has lots of sail.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
I just did a blog post about redoing my running rigging. Lines were already left, but I added some more. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/running-rigging-redux.825/

I agree that it's a lot of work. If you have a dodger, the dodger becomes one of the central factors in planning location of the winches, rope clutches, and where the lines pass through the dodger.

Also, zipper access to the under deck is essential--especially if you're using butyl tape as a sealant. Butyl tape requires repeated re-tightening of the fasteners to squeeze out all the excess.. It probably took three rounds of tightening on the deck of organizers, and six on the winches, over a period of several weeks (or even months in cool weather).

If you're happy with lines led forward, it might save you a ton of time to keep it that way.

I will say I'm happy with my system though. I reefed sails several times last seasonal-all from the cockpit (singlehand, no wheel pilot). I only needed to go forward to add sail ties to the reefed bundles, and even then, not all the way forward to the mast.
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the blog reference. In my situation, I want to replace the halyard/reef line winch with a self-tailing winch and both sets of clutches at the on each side of mast have to be replaced. They slip like crazy and I want to replace with better quality clutches. So that will require epoxy fill, re-redrill new holes for each set of clutches (a bank of 3 clutches in each set) and same for the new 30 or 40 size winch. So I have to do some if the work anyway.

So the rigger who is helping me with a good part of the work, said "Well if you are going to do all of that, why not just relocate everything back to the cockpit ? - We can move your clutches back feed lines/halyards through two deck organizers and put two new winches back on each size of the companionway near the cockpit. (and remove 3 old undersized winches)".

There is more work to do this, but it is on top of work that has to be done anyway. So I am deliberating. The argument the rigger gave me is that it reduces amount of times you have to leave the cockpit , it's easier and everything is there. But if you think it through, there will still be reasons to go to the mast. Unless I change my reefing system, there is still a dog bone, reef hook you need to go to mast for. The lazy jack cleats are at the mast (still have to figure out if I want to leave them retracted while sailing)..etc. etc. I took a walk and looked at the newer boats in our marina (the J-105's and larger race boats) and the trend is towards cockpit controls - although the cockpit in the newer boats are larger, so if you did have a crew, there will be more room for them hauling halyards in the cockpit then there would be on my boat, but I plan to sail mostly short handed.

decisions..decisions...
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If you're adding deck organizers, you can also lead back reef downhauls to eliminate the dog bone drill. I have everything led back for singlehanding, and it does work if you don't mind friction and are used to anticipating fouls. But with guests, they do have to sorta clear out when I reef from the companionway. Here's something on clutch installation:

 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
If you're adding deck organizers, you can also lead back reef downhauls to eliminate the dog bone drill. I have everything led back for singlehanding, and it does work if you don't mind friction and are used to anticipating fouls. But with guests, they do have to sorta clear out when I reef from the companionway. Here's something on clutch installation:

I had not seen that blog. Thanks.

So that would mean though two additional clutches for two new Reef #1/#2 backlines and blocks. 'mmm I think it's time to make drawing to see how this is all going to work. My back reef lines are on each side of the mask, so Reef #1 is on right, Reef #2 is on left. It would make sense to matching arrangement for the forward lines. What is the other end of the forward reef line(s) attached to ? - or is it simply spliced to a ring at the forward reef point grommet, replacing the dog bone - or does it go through the reef point and attach (or tied to mast) like the back lines typically are ?

The clutch mfg recommended to me in Antal. Not sure if anyone has experience. They look well made and overbuilt .

No matter what we do , I'll take pictures and po
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The reef downhauls are just lines attached to the existing dog bones. They could easily tie off on a simple cleat in the cockpit, rather than a clutch, since they don't really need a winch. I like the clutch for neatness--the line tails go in the line bag underneath.
 

clayton

Member III
This is the setup my 32-200 came from the factory with, I find it very accommodating for me single hand26B68FAB-8D43-44C0-925D-F644BB7CDD8D.jpeged, and with 1 or 2 crew/guests. I typically use a repurposed vang with a cunningham hook and ratchet block to tension the luff rather than the horns. My main has blocks sewn in at the reef points that I could use also, but I prefer the cunningham arrangement best. Good luck with your decision.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
This is the setup my 32-200 came from the factory with, I find it very accommodating for me single handView attachment 36074ed, and with 1 or 2 crew/guests. I typically use a repurposed vang with a cunningham hook and ratchet block to tension the luff rather than the horns. My main has blocks sewn in at the reef points that I could use also, but I prefer the cunningham arrangement best. Good luck with your decision.
Thanks for the info . Wondering why your setup has a separate jib halyard and reef winch. Is it basically to provide best alignment with clutch ?
 

clayton

Member III
Yes definitely, with the turn through blocks at the mast base then organizers, helps keep the friction more manageable. I raise the main by hand and use the winch for final tensioning. Same with setting reefs.
 

goldenstate

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
This is the setup my 32-200 came from the factory with, I find it very accommodating for me single handView attachment 36074ed, and with 1 or 2 crew/guests. I typically use a repurposed vang with a cunningham hook and ratchet block to tension the luff rather than the horns. My main has blocks sewn in at the reef points that I could use also, but I prefer the cunningham arrangement best. Good luck with your decision.
Clayton -

Is this image from a genuine 32-200 manual? If so, and you could share it as a PDF to the 'resources' section of the site, that would be phenomenal.

A manual for the 32-200 has until now been lost to history.

My boat came with one for an E32Mk2 which is outdated/incorrect for my boat in all sorts of ways.

Thanks in advance,

Tom
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
No matter what model boat, the requirement for the line lead from clutch to winch is similar. Place the clutch(es) so that the center of the output from the center clutch is pointed at the inlet side of the winch drum. Most winch makers would like you to have at least 12" from rear of clutch to entry point on drum, I have seen boats where it worked ok with as little as 8".
More = better.
When the line is tensioned by the winch, there is a potential load on the side of the output ferrel, and this in turn puts unwanted stress on the clutch fixing bolts. This stuff is spec'd out strong, but the less unneeded friction you introduce, the better.
Everywhere that loaded halyard makes a turn it's good to replace all of the 80's axel sheaves with modern ball bearing ones. I changed everything over to Garhauer and Harken.
For my solution to the lead to the winch, see my blog entry here.

Note that having the individual winch mounted symmetrically on either side of the companionway hatch will usually result in an unfair lead on one side. Ericson, AFAIK, did this correctly. And, if you have enough space in front of the winch it's a minor concern anyhow.

(Looking around, I have seen many low-end production boats with unfair leads, just so the winches would look symetrical to newbies at boat shows.)
 

clayton

Member III
Alas, the manual that came with our boat is for a 32-3. Rather amusing when I did the initial survey, nothing in the plumbing or electrical sections seemed to match up...the owner wasn't present so I opened up everything I could with a screw gun and found where all the plumbing was located, where water tanks were. The few 32-200 specific pages I have are of the deck layout previously posted, standing rigging spec page, and the tank/cooler manifold under the sink (which is identified for 32 & 38). I have a page on rudder tube assembly and maintenance/adjustment, couple pages on mast tuning with reference to rake. I suspect those pages can be found in other model manuals from the same era (85 on).
 

goldenstate

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Alas, the manual that came with our boat is for a 32-3. Rather amusing when I did the initial survey, nothing in the plumbing or electrical sections seemed to match up...the owner wasn't present so I opened up everything I could with a screw gun and found where all the plumbing was located, where water tanks were. The few 32-200 specific pages I have are of the deck layout previously posted, standing rigging spec page, and the tank/cooler manifold under the sink (which is identified for 32 & 38). I have a page on rudder tube assembly and maintenance/adjustment, couple pages on mast tuning with reference to rake. I suspect those pages can be found in other model manuals from the same era (85 on).
Thanks for the feedback. It seems crazy to me that Ericson was selling $100k+ boats with, "Well, sir, this manual is pretty close to the boat you're buying from me, though not exactly the same." But I suppose that may be what happened.

I have the same winch-deck layout as shown, though I don't recognize the hardware just aft of the anchor locker labeled "Foreguy" and an arrow indicating "Lewmar B//O." I have a windlass in the same location. Do you know what those points indicate? Foreguy cleat for a pole?

Thanks!
 

clayton

Member III
Yes the fore guy deck plate is for spinnaker foreguy, block attachment. On the diagram it reads "Lewmar 8110 deck plate". Considering Ericson moved production across the border to Mexico sometime in '88 (my boat was made in Dec 88 and bears the made in Mexico plate at the companionway) I would imagine not spending money on a new manual was part of cost cutting trying to stay in business, even tho likely a small dollar amount. My manual is printed on ordinary letter quality paper and in a 3 ring binder, looks like it was copied.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
I thought I should follow up on where we stand with this project after a month. Short story is that I decided, after going back and forth about 100 times, to move all controls back to the cockpit. We removed 2 old winches and 2 clutches at the mast. Was replaced by new Antal Clutches and Lewmar 40 ST's. We retained a main halyard cam cleat at the mast so I can hoist the main from that location if I choose to. Jib and Main halyards were replaced in the process. I want to eventually replace the rest of the running rigging lines but I need to take a spending break for a while :).

I originally planned to work with a shipwright/rigger to help me with the project and work along side sharing some of the work, but the guy I ended up getting pretty much did all the work.

IMG_2620.jpgIMG_2621.jpg
 

Kenneth K

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
That looks great! Mine took me a whole season+ to get done.

Hey, I'm curious. What did he do to terminate your mainsheet? When I sought advice, many here said not to run the mainsheet through a clutch--just too cumbersome for something that needs frequent adjustment. So I placed a clamcleat directly under the mainsheet's path when to the winch. To secure the sheet off the winch, I just push down on the winch-taught line to set it in the clamcleat jaws. Then, when I release the winch tension, the clamcleat takes it up. But clamcleats aren't the most secure so I'm not sure if I like this setup. I suppose I could always back this up with a wrap on a horn cleat if the mainsheet is going to be off the winch for a while.

20200811_201659.jpg
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I have been on boats with housetop travelers where the main sheet is led back from a turning block at the base of the mast. Quite often it is led thru or just over a cam cleat, and then to a winch. That way it is left in the cam cleat and be released easily, and in light air can be pulled in thru the cam cleat. The Harken ball bearing cleats are really good for this application.

Lots more force is required the further forward you move the sheeting point on the boom, so there is some sailing advantage to the bridge deck traveler on the E-33RH and E-36RH, and the Olson's.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
That looks great! Mine took me a whole season+ to get done.

Hey, I'm curious. What did he do to terminate your mainsheet? When I sought advice, many here said not to run the mainsheet through a clutch--just too cumbersome for something that needs frequent adjustment. So I placed a clamcleat directly under the mainsheet's path when to the winch. To secure the sheet off the winch, I just push down on the winch-taught line to set it in the clamcleat jaws. Then, when I release the winch tension, the clamcleat takes it up. But clamcleats aren't the most secure so I'm not sure if I like this setup. I suppose I could always back this up with a wrap on a horn cleat if the mainsheet is going to be off the winch for a while.

View attachment 36377
Yes as Loren said, I have a bridge deck traveler (one of the things that led me to buying this boat). My traveler was upgraded by PO to include a "windward sheeting car" which is a really nice feature. The traveler car knows mechanically which tack you are on and opens cams to release line on leeward side of traveler when you sheet in.

The main sheet has a dual purchase system with course and fine adjustments and with some strong arms you don't need a winch to sheet in - so no winches for the main sheet.

So far, the rear reef lines #1 and #2 lead back through their own clutches, one on each side. For the forward reef point on the luff of the sail, I still have to go to the mast and grab the dog bone ring and put it over a reef hook. So, I still can't do everything from the cockpit. I have seen that Christian and others have separate lines for the forward reef points coming back. I may add those later, but I'll have to add two more clutches (8 total ?). I'm going to sail the boat for a while and see what works and what doesn't for me with this new setup. Right now I can single-hand the boat whereas before it was pretty difficult for me.
 
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