Filkee
Sustaining Member
Exactly what I was going to say. And I should be able to afford this year's model in about 40 years.
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Modern equivalent of an Ericson cruiser/racer?
- Thread starter goldenstate
- Start date
I guess this is an "if I win the lottery" category of questions. I would likely go with a new J boat or Sydney. In the realm of practicality, an Express 34 or Olson 34 are on my short list. If you are going to cruise... cruise fast. And, small enough to sail short handed.
p.gazibara
Member III
Pogo structures are churning out some for the fastest modern racer/cruisers on the market. This part of the market is still alive, just not in the USA.
Halbert Rassy is another fine example, more of a cruiser than racer though.
Both of which probably have a better built quality than the Ericsons were.
-p
Halbert Rassy is another fine example, more of a cruiser than racer though.
Both of which probably have a better built quality than the Ericsons were.
-p
A friend had a 10-yr-old HR 310 version (mentioned above) a few slips away. He bought it in Europe, "because it was like an Ericson." Or maybe he was flattering me.
It was like an Ericson, although my 32-3 had more graceful lines. He had been told a tiller was important, then saw how my wheel opened the cockpit and changed his mind. The boat had high quality gear, heavy for a 31-footer, teak deck, windlass, whisker pole on the mast, stepped transom. It had the same beam, give or take, as the 32-3, but looked stubbier. The windshield was pretty motorboat-like but looked good, and it made for a complete canvas enclosure for the cockpit, handy for living aboard.
I think it was slow, or slower, but still a good choice for extended singlehanding. He had plans to cross the Pacific to his homeland in Asia. One day two years ago his slip turned up empty. I would like to think he shoved off, but more likely it was business reversals.
It was like an Ericson, although my 32-3 had more graceful lines. He had been told a tiller was important, then saw how my wheel opened the cockpit and changed his mind. The boat had high quality gear, heavy for a 31-footer, teak deck, windlass, whisker pole on the mast, stepped transom. It had the same beam, give or take, as the 32-3, but looked stubbier. The windshield was pretty motorboat-like but looked good, and it made for a complete canvas enclosure for the cockpit, handy for living aboard.
I think it was slow, or slower, but still a good choice for extended singlehanding. He had plans to cross the Pacific to his homeland in Asia. One day two years ago his slip turned up empty. I would like to think he shoved off, but more likely it was business reversals.
K2MSmith
Sustaining Member
I looked at some of the videos for the Najad boats and they do look impressive. There is a company in the Bay area that is a dealer for the electric versions, but for some reason I am not finding a reference. Out of my league as far as price, but maybe after they depreciate to a 25% of their value in 10 yearsMy take on all this is that new actual off shore designed "cruiser racer" sailboats are almost gone from the market. Evidently there are not enough customers anymore. While there ARE some customers, it takes a minimum amount of sales volume to keep a business going.
Some years ago, a friend of ours that owned a large yard told me that in order to break even on a new sailboat, after creating the tooling, he had to be absolutely sure selling over 100 hulls. That yard specializes in one-off power and sailboats, so the price is high.
This whole situation has interesting ramifications for those wanting a performance cruiser with real quality, but does create a market for vintage Ericsons, Tartans, and the few others in their league.
The shop that is doing our re-fit has done one prior Ericson, a Jason 35 (now cruising NZ), and about 7 or 8 Cascade 36's. One of his customers won a race to HA several years ago with a Cascade 36, which is really a pre-IOR Robert Smith design. By coincidence he did a partial re-fit on another Olson 34, just before we moved out boat in.
Over a decade ago, we toured a new Najad 35, in Seattle. The interior looked a lot like a later Ericson. Great boat, altho over $400K. I would have one of those in a heartbeat, if I were richer... a lot richer...
We have discussed this general topic in several past threads, so some searching will turn up more commentary.
steven
Sustaining Member
I always like the Hallberg-Rassy. Almost bought one. The older ones are really solid.
Their web site has a weird virtual reality feature on which is it easy to get seasick.
I note they do not have a chart table in the layout. Probably because of electronic nav these days. Has anyone noticed if that is generally a trend in this size range ?
Their web site has a weird virtual reality feature on which is it easy to get seasick.
I note they do not have a chart table in the layout. Probably because of electronic nav these days. Has anyone noticed if that is generally a trend in this size range ?
Teranodon
Member III
I lived in France for many years and was always chartering 35ish-footers from Jeaneau and Beneteau, on the Med, in Brittany and Normandy. They are ok, but very plasticy compared to my E34. The "Euro-interiors" are designed for easy cleaning, but boy are they ugly. I seem to remember that the winches and deck hardware had a "Made in China" feel that I didn't like. Still, we had some wonderful experiences, especially in Brittany. For example, the modern marina in La Rochelle, "Les Minimes" has hundreds and hundreds of Beneteaus and Jeaneaus. It's almost scary. But the ancient harbor nearby has lovely stone towers flanking the entrance, and old granite quays. Hate to say it, but the "Salish Sea" just doesn't offer the same combination of natural beauty and historical interest.
Roger Janeway
Member II
These modern boats have SailDrives. I'm not looking for a new boat, but in the fantasy world we're discussing, should we be scared of them? I've finally learned how to access and adjust my stuffing box nuts. Controlling the drip rates from a prop shaft is at least comprehensible. But a big hole in the hull without a valve seems frightening.
Perhaps the recommendation has changed, but for years one of the major sail drive suppliers, Volvo, has recommended replacement of the membrane every 7 years. I strongly suspect that most new boat purchasers do not realize this, and that on many boats this will require a haul out and the lifting of the engine/trans. unit. It is potentially a huge amount of money compared to the routine maintenance of a stuffing box, and that can be done, in a pinch, while afloat.
That said, the SD double-layer membrane system seems reliable. Also, this is the kind of portential sinking hazard that insurers will look closely at when assessing the owner's due diligence in preventing a sinking claim and any subsequent expenditure -$- payout.... (sigh)
1911tex
Sustaining Member
If looking for a new one and could afford it (no), you are correct...downsize to this beauty!
Or THIS ONE:
Hallberg-Rassy 340
www.hallberg-rassy.com
Last edited:
1911tex
Sustaining Member
Not that I can afford a Hallberg-Rassy, which I certainly cannot even as a dream...however your query is interesting concerning the sail drive. I just emailed, for the heck of it, the USA distributor that question:Perhaps the recommendation has changed, but for years one of the major sail drive suppliers, Volvo, has recommended replacement of the membrane every 7 years. I strongly suspect that most new boat purchasers do not realize this, and that on many boats this will require a haul out and the lifting of the engine/trans. unit. It is potentially a huge amount of money compared to the routine maintenance of a stuffing box, and that can be done, in a pinch, while afloat.
That said, the SD double-layer membrane system seems reliable. Also, this is the kind of portential sinking hazard that insurers will look closely at when assessing the owner's due diligence in preventing a sinking claim and any subsequent expenditure -$- payout.... (sigh)
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Parrothead
Member III
Loren's reference back in post #13:
Production figures according to SailboatData
Loren's recollection of the yard owner's statement from years ago that the tooling expense for a new design was amortized over 100 units was the formula we all used. A popular racing design at the time that was a colossal financial failure was the blister deck Ranger 37 aka Ranger 1 Ton. 44 units were built before the IOR racing rule changed and drove the design into obsolescence instantly. The Sparkman and Stephens designed Yankee 38 suffered a similar fate, 30 units produced until Catalina bought the hull molds in the Yankee bankruptcy sale. As this applied to Ericson, 105 Ericson 39's were produced meaning it barely covered it's tooling costs and only 20 Ericson 46's were produced. YIKES!
Production figures according to SailboatData
All Ericsons produced in the 1970's and 1980's would have raced subject to IOR rules, yes?
I ask this as a novice: Would Ericsons thus be categorized generally as IOR designs?
I think IOR went away in the early 1980's, but it doesn't seem like hull forms produced by Ericson changed much after the rules were updated.
I ask this as a novice: Would Ericsons thus be categorized generally as IOR designs?
I think IOR went away in the early 1980's, but it doesn't seem like hull forms produced by Ericson changed much after the rules were updated.
Exploitation of the IOR rules led to some funny looking boats, fast for the time (although not downwind).
Since our boats aren't funny looking (no pinched stern, wide decks, ballast issues) I'd say they were more typical cruiser/racers of the era. They sure weren't quarter-tonners.
I've heard Ericsons described as "IOR" designs, I just don't think it adds up. A radical IOR boat, or big IOR influence, is very obvious.
Since our boats aren't funny looking (no pinched stern, wide decks, ballast issues) I'd say they were more typical cruiser/racers of the era. They sure weren't quarter-tonners.
I've heard Ericsons described as "IOR" designs, I just don't think it adds up. A radical IOR boat, or big IOR influence, is very obvious.
Slick470
Sustaining Member
A lot of production boats designed during the 70's and 80's were IOR influenced with some being more than others. It was a popular rule and it made a lot of business sense to design boats that "looked" similar to the race boats. Prior to the IOR many boat designs were influenced by the CCA rules. Afterward, a lot of boats were designed to meet MORC, like our Olson 911S and by extension Olson 34 which didn't meet the rule due to length but was still heavily influenced by the rule. Then IMS, IRC, and on and on...
Many Ericson's of the time were also IOR influenced but most of the more successful selling Ericsons skipped a lot of the weird bits of the rule. Some of the obvious IOR influenced boats are like the 34 and 34T with the bustles, super pinched sterns, skinny mains and massive overlapping headsails and some are very IOR like the 37 and 46 which I believe were designed to the 1 ton and 2 ton rules respectively. I think boats like the Ericson 35-3 have a bit of IOR influence with the rig plan and hull form, but nothing is done in extreme so it makes for an overall more balanced design.
Also keep in mind that IOR evolved drastically through it's run and an early IOR boat may not have looked anything like a middle IOR or a late IOR designed boat.
I wanted a Ranger 37 for a long time, but never found one nearby that wasn't a huge project.
Many Ericson's of the time were also IOR influenced but most of the more successful selling Ericsons skipped a lot of the weird bits of the rule. Some of the obvious IOR influenced boats are like the 34 and 34T with the bustles, super pinched sterns, skinny mains and massive overlapping headsails and some are very IOR like the 37 and 46 which I believe were designed to the 1 ton and 2 ton rules respectively. I think boats like the Ericson 35-3 have a bit of IOR influence with the rig plan and hull form, but nothing is done in extreme so it makes for an overall more balanced design.
Also keep in mind that IOR evolved drastically through it's run and an early IOR boat may not have looked anything like a middle IOR or a late IOR designed boat.
I wanted a Ranger 37 for a long time, but never found one nearby that wasn't a huge project.
So after a little more searching I have a couple of candidates that I think would be relatively close to my 32-200:
They are modern production boats so the build quality will be different from the quality of our production boats of yore.
The Oceanis 30.1 is interesting in part because the designers are the same as those who drew the Pogo 30. It's a corner chine planing-hull design that would slap in the waves, but probably go faster than my Ericson downwind all else equal.
www.beneteau.com
The Hanse is a smidge larger (probably sails more like an E35, given the waterline etc.) and has in common with the Beneteau a wide beam carried aft.
hanseyachts.hr
The Oceanis has an open transom, which I suppose one gets used to, and is good for water sloshing out, but the idea makes me a little uneasy.
The Hanse has a nice little fold-down swim platform that serves as a closing transom when not in use. It also has helmsmen seats perpendicular to the path of travel.
Both boats have twin wheels and rudders, which seem silly on smallish boats, but would make it easy to move about the cockpit.
The Oceanis has a prop-shaft drive, perhaps easier to trailer than a saildrive. The Hanse has a saildrive.
Of the two new small cruisers, I think the Hanse is closer to my 32. The Oceanis is trailer-able, which could be nice depending on one's needs, but I want a boat that will live in the bay year round. A couple of reviews mention that the 30.1 might have benefitted from stability with a wider beam, like the Pogo.
The Hanse comes with a self-tacking jib, which probably seems un-racy for a lot of people, but would make single handing-really easy.
The Beneteau dealer in the SF Bays says they are selling the Oceanis 30.1 like hotcakes. The sailing school in my marina has at least two. The dealer has sold four others this year and have two on order, with a spec boat coming in March.
I get the sense that the Jenneau boats enjoy a slightly better reputation than the Beneteaus, but the smallest Jenneau (The Sun Odyssey 349) is nearly 34 feet. Hanse also has a sister line called Dehler that is more race-oriented.
I think the Hanse would be the boat, but I have not seen any of them in person.
| Boat | Ericson 32-200 | Beneteau Oceanis 30.1 | Hanse 348 |
| Length Over All (Sailboat Data) | 32.5' | 31.27' | 32.78 |
| Length at Waterline | 25.83' | 28.38 feet | 31.33 |
| Displacement | 9,800lbs | 8807 lbs | 13,889 |
| Ballast | 4,200lbs | 2145lb | 5071lb |
| Sail Area | 496sf | 425sf | 630 |
| "I" measure | 42feet | 44.62sf | |
| Deep Keel Draft | 6.04 feet | 6.17 feet | 6.4 feet |
| Beam | 10.83 feet | 9.81 feet | 11.48 |
| Price | 30K and up | 135k and up | 155k and up |
They are modern production boats so the build quality will be different from the quality of our production boats of yore.
The Oceanis 30.1 is interesting in part because the designers are the same as those who drew the Pogo 30. It's a corner chine planing-hull design that would slap in the waves, but probably go faster than my Ericson downwind all else equal.
BENETEAU Oceanis 30.1 | The best little robust smart sailboat cruiser
The Oceanis 30.1 is easy to sail but lively to helm and promises new experiences and thrills. This robust little smart cruiser is small enough to trail, opening up endless possibilities for sailing on lakes and rivers, as well as coastal sailing and high sea adventures.
www.beneteau.com
The Hanse is a smidge larger (probably sails more like an E35, given the waterline etc.) and has in common with the Beneteau a wide beam carried aft.
Hanse 348 - Model Range | Yacht Sales | Hanse Yachts
hanseyachts.hr
The Oceanis has an open transom, which I suppose one gets used to, and is good for water sloshing out, but the idea makes me a little uneasy.
The Hanse has a nice little fold-down swim platform that serves as a closing transom when not in use. It also has helmsmen seats perpendicular to the path of travel.
Both boats have twin wheels and rudders, which seem silly on smallish boats, but would make it easy to move about the cockpit.
The Oceanis has a prop-shaft drive, perhaps easier to trailer than a saildrive. The Hanse has a saildrive.
Of the two new small cruisers, I think the Hanse is closer to my 32. The Oceanis is trailer-able, which could be nice depending on one's needs, but I want a boat that will live in the bay year round. A couple of reviews mention that the 30.1 might have benefitted from stability with a wider beam, like the Pogo.
The Hanse comes with a self-tacking jib, which probably seems un-racy for a lot of people, but would make single handing-really easy.
The Beneteau dealer in the SF Bays says they are selling the Oceanis 30.1 like hotcakes. The sailing school in my marina has at least two. The dealer has sold four others this year and have two on order, with a spec boat coming in March.
I get the sense that the Jenneau boats enjoy a slightly better reputation than the Beneteaus, but the smallest Jenneau (The Sun Odyssey 349) is nearly 34 feet. Hanse also has a sister line called Dehler that is more race-oriented.
I think the Hanse would be the boat, but I have not seen any of them in person.
FWIW... the build quality in a Beneteau is considerably below an Ericson. I get this info from a local ship wright and another very experienced surveyor.
Then there are the basics that most sailors ignore because the problems are out of sight -- most of the Beneteau's have iron keels. It's cheaper, less dense, and slows the boat down compared to a lead keel.
12 years ago, we looked inside a Hanse 31 and 34, at a boat show in Alameda, and the general fit and finish were very good.
Then there are the basics that most sailors ignore because the problems are out of sight -- most of the Beneteau's have iron keels. It's cheaper, less dense, and slows the boat down compared to a lead keel.
12 years ago, we looked inside a Hanse 31 and 34, at a boat show in Alameda, and the general fit and finish were very good.
