New Sails for a Ercison 27. How should I expect to pay?

[Chris Miller]

If you are looking at racing...

Hi Jeff,
If you are looking at racing and being competative, go with North Sails, Quantum, or UK- (my opinion says in that order, but we all know what that's worth). Going with one of the big lofts will allow you to have assistance in learning to use your new sails to their best. Take the guys from the loft out on the boat with you and have them take you through sailing it. Sails have changed a ton since yours were produced. Plus, if there is something seriously wrong with it, they'll make sure it's fixed.
Let us know how it goes!
Chris

 

[Seth]

sails

As you would expect-I agree with Morgan. Would you buy a Kia motor for your BMW? Doubt it, really.

Quality counts over price, and even though I am no longer a sailmaker and have no axe to grinds, I can vouch that Quantum is one of the better companies in terms of quality and ethical treatment of its' customers.
The discount sailmakers don't do you much good.

Beyond the obvious issues of quality and performance is the issue of resale. Having good, name brand sails makes a SIGNIFICANT impact on the value of your boat. A new set of Q, N, or D sails (my fav's-there are other good sailmakers, but these will bring the most return on investment) is worth MUCH more on a used boat than sails from any of the discount houses, overseas sailmakers, or small local lofts(even though man y of them are good enough sails).

If you had a boat like McGregor, O'day, or similar, this makes much less difference. But you have a high-end boat which deserves sails to match.

Please don't spend my 2 cents all in one place!

S

 

[windjunkee]

I'm currently shopping for sails for my 32-2. I don't want to go top of the line, but I am looking for a mid-range race headsail ... likely a kevlar laminate. Those bastards at UK simply refuse to call me back. I took the measurements myself but the guy there said they had all the dimensions on computer and would "get back to me". I definitely need the sail by August 1, and I'm actually surprised by this thread, considering that I really expected to pay $3,000 for one sail.
Thanks for all the input.

Voice of Reason E32-2 hull #134
Jim McCone

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Jim McCone,
The sail guys are right; they have all the measurements on their computers already. Remember that laminate sails do not last as long as dacron. I would say 3-5 is good for laminate. Seven is good for dacron that has had good care. If you are not racing, then why go for the extra expense and shorter effective life of a laminate? Dacron is getting better all the time, and I think that it's a damn good all-around value now and will continue to get better. There are new tweeks to dacron as a sailcloth. Ask your sailmaker.
With a dacron 155 and a dacron main (Quantum) I beat a Catalina 36 and an Ericson 38 last weekend, boat-for-boat. If it had been blowing harder, that might not have happened, but they also owed me a minimum of 750 seconds on the 10-mile course.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[Seth]

sails

To be specific-most of the sailmakers DO have the rig dimensions at hand, but NOT the correct dimensions for your sail-this can only be the case IF they have built that exact sail for your exact model of boat-AND things like furlers, mainsail track systems are the same.

Even when we have the rig dimensions, and unless we have a file on your exact hull# or same model with the exact same configuration, we (the good ones anyway) will need to get some boat specific dimensions-headstay length, track locations, furler drum heights, etc, There are a out 20 items on our checklist that need to be completed even after we know the I ,J,P, & E.

To be specific....

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Seth,
The point I was trying to get across was that a sailmaker doesn't necessarily have to come to one's boat in order top make a quote on price. With the guy I am dealing with (local Quantum dealership) he comes to the boat to deliver the sail, but is not there in person to measure for it. I have no complaints. Of course, I know enough to tell him what specifics I want, too. He has always been spot on. That's why he gets all my business.
Morgan

 

[windjunkee]

Morgan and Seth,

I appreciate the input. However, we ARE racing this boat quite often. In fact, we have her out for races more than for any other reason. I know I know, a 1970 E 32 is not exactly designed as a race boat, but she runs with a 202 rating (non-spinnaker) and we've been competitive with the other club boats, as we've taken 2nd and 3rd in the last two weeks.

We have what looks like a newer mainsail ... perhaps 7 years old or so, fully battened, but it looks short (i.e. even with the boom height near its maximum, the head of the sail is still 18 inches from the top of the mast). Its shape is still good though.

Its the head sails. I have little doubt that the headsails we have are original equipment (i.e 35 years old). They still work (sort of) but since we race so often, we are willing to put out a little more money to get race specific sails.

Once I get engage one of these lofts in a discussion, we might end up with dacron anyway. You never know.

Great information on the site. Thanks

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Jim,
There is no reason for your main to be 18 inches from the top of the mast. Maybe the sail came off another boat? New main is justified. See how easy it is for me to spend YOUR money?
If you are racing most of the time, you can still do well with dacron. New sails will make you a consistent winner. Go for it!
Morgan

 

[Seth]

2 things

1). Morgan-Of course you are 100% correct as far as quoting sails go-sorry if I implied otherwise. The only thing I was saying was that the data base most sailmakers subscribe to contains only the I,J,P, & E, which is what is used for quoting. To actually build a sail, much more info is needed, and there are several ways to do it.

The old school method is to use the designers sailplan-an engineering document which is to scale and give most of the mast and boom details. The Bruce King plans are more accurate than many others, but because boat builders often change mast suppliers, and hardware-sometime not updating the plans, you can sometimes get into trouble by relying 100% on the plans. Once you have been bitten a few times, the usual deal is to either go and measure the boat for details like HS length, track locations, etc., and use these to build the sail. Often, a sailmaker will do a full measurement on a clients boat early in their relationship, so that any new sails can be built right from the info in the boat's file. Additionally, some large sailmakers like Quantum (and others), keep a central database of actial measurements (from sails they have built) so that one loft can call another for details on a standard rig E-27, for example.
Sometimes, the sailmaker will fax a measurement form to the client and have he/she do the measurements and fax them back.

You can imagine, though, if your sailmaker had built a sail for a 27 with a Hood furling system, and then gets an order foor one with a Harken furler-the luff length won't be right, and the tape won't fit-you get the idea. I am a former Quantum employee and can attest to their quality and integrity. I am just explaining the process to avoid any confusion...

I guess the main thing is that the info for quoting is not enough to build a sail, and somehow, someway, your sailmaker must obtain more info to actually build a sail.

2). Jim,-first of all-the 32-2 was a great race boat 'back in the day', and still is in many fleets. Your mainsail-if it is indeed 18" short on the luff, is hurting you considerably-that is a lot of sail area where it is needed most-up high.
If your headsails are that much older, I agree you should start there, but keep that in mind about the main. Contact me directly for some specific help on working with a local sailmaker (I can hook you up out in SOCAL)-you will be AMAZED at what new sails will do for you-if you are racing as much as you say-you really need some kind of composite genoa-the main could be a performance dacron or composite-you should explore both when the time comes.

Cheers!!

S

 

[Mympyl]

Check out this...

Check out www.thesailwarehouse.com

You can search by the actual boat (Ericson 27). My slip neighbor with an E-27 ordered and put his new main on and I promptly ordered myself. Great price and good quailty. Much better than the 30 year old sail on my boat now, and left enough cash left to work on some other things around the boat as well.

 

[windjunkee]

Done deal

Thank you for all the input on sails. I confirmed the purchase this morning with Ullman sails.

Just to give everyone an idea about what we were shopping for and the price range we received, Voice of Reason is a 1970 E-32 and probably 80 percent of our use is racing or race practice.
We have 4 different headsails, most of which look to be original equipment (i.e. 35 years old) We were looking for a 155 laminate genoa which would be the most used sail in the southern california conditions we have. We weren't looking for top of the line but were seeking the best performance realistically available for a boat of this age.

I contacted UK, Quantum, Elliott-Pattison, T&A, Ullman, North and Neil Pryde. The quotes I received ran from a low of $2370 for a UK Tape Drive "Silver" to a high of $5300 for a Quantum Membrane. Most of the quotes ranged from about $2700 to $3600, depending on materials. We decided on Kevlar, which narrowed the range from $2800 to $3500 (excluding carbon).

We selected Ullman despite their qoute of $3600 for the Kevlar for two main reasons: All of the input I received regarding Ullman race sails was positive. Secondly (and more importantly) after calling Ullman for a quote and spending some time on the phone with them, I received a call out of the blue from a very, very accomplished international racer who works with Ullman. Within a day of placing the order "Sam" was down on the dock reviewing our rigging setup, looking at the sails we have and making suggestions about both. He then went out on the water with us during the Wet Tuesday races and observed how we sailed the boat and how the boat performed on various points of sail. Then, he sat down with me and made suggestions on cut variations and construction.

Absolutely the personal touch of having Sam intimately involved and making realtime assessments of our needs tipped the scales. We also expect he will be available even after delivery of the sail.

I have to thank Seth for his input and assistance. I had narrowed my choice of loft to Ullman and Elliott-Pattison and Seth even called the local loft here to work a discount on the E-P proposal. However, ultimately it was the personal involvement that cemented the decision.

Hope this info helps to those also in the market for new sails. Now, I am impatiently awaiting the arrival of our new rag. By the way, Sam worked a 15 percent discount, which brought the cost to $3111.00.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134

 

[Seth]

Good choice

Jim,

Good going. Sam and I go WAY back, and have sailed many miles together. Actually he is one of the very best offshore sailors in the country-you are dealing with someone of the very highest caliber. Had I known you were working with him, I would have left the issue alone. Both EP and Ullman are excellent sailmakers with a serious committment to customer service and quality, and you will be pleased with the results.
Say hello to Sam for me!
Congratulations!

S

 

[raleighm]

Genoa Measurements for E27

I bought a used E27 standard rig last summer that came with a 110 genoa and a huge 170, both quite old but in decent condition. I am interested in buying a used 135 and 150/155. Based on J of 11.25, this would indicate LP of between 15'2" and 17'5".

Most of the online used sail dealers don't publish LP, just luff, foot and leach dimensions. Can anyone provide luff, leach and foot dimensions for 135/150/155 sails that you already use?

I have been following the new sail discussions with great salivation and would love to order new sails but with twins going to college and wife scaling back her work it just isn't going to be in the budget anytime soon! Used sails won't be optimized for my boat but they have to be better than what I have now.

Thanks,

Raleigh

 

[windjunkee]

Raliegh,

From what I've discovered, the LP can differ depending on the cut of the sail. The sails we have right now have a low clew which, when closehauled and strapped to within a couple of inches of the spreaders, means it is below the top of the lifelines. Our new sail is designed with a different angle for the foot which will bring the clew up above the lifelines and will make for better visibility to our lee as well.

That said, as we are awaiting delivery of our new sail, we are converting the headstay to accommodate a foil tape (adding a "TuffLuff") from the old hank-on system.

In the process, we are also converting a couple of our old sails from hanks to foil (about $140/sail) While they are at the loft, we're going to have them recut to add some life. My understanding is they can work with the material and move the draft forward to shed at least some of the hard years of use. I expect to drop the sails off at the loft tomorrow. I'll post the cost of recutting and the best explanation of what they will be doing to the sail and how they will do it.

Seth knows way more about this than I do though.

If I were you, I might contact a loft in your area and check into getting your sails refurbished.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Well I went and did it. I got my new sails.

Well I went and did it. I got my new sails.

I appreciate all the advice I received here at EY.org but due to financial limitations and listening to a lot of local advice I decided to go with mail order sails from Lee in Hong Kong. My father also had a lot of experience with Lee and actually toured the factory when he was doing business in Hong Kong. Lee has been making sails for 50 years and I am very impressed with the construction and performance. I swear I gained a knot! I sailed the boat Saturday in winds varying from 12 to 18 knots. It's like having a new boat. I am having nothing but good results with the Full Battens.

Lee set me up with a full batten 6.5 oz Main with two sets of reef points and a 140% 6 oz Genoa with UV cover and foam luff. Both sails came with the original insignias, numbers, sail bags and tell tails. The local rep for Lee here in Southern California has Lee Sails on his Cal 40 and there are other Cal 40's in my Marina that use Lee Sail as well. That was good enough for me. It took a couple trips down to the boat to take the sails down and double check the measurements, but they fit perfectly.

I couldn't be happier with them and I saved over a thousand dollars compared to local lofts. If my sailing budget wasn't so tight I would have gone with a local loft such as Elliot Pattison to have the comfort of pros doing the fitting but it worked out fine with Lee. Lee also gets a couple of nice reviews on Sail Jazz.

 

[Mympyl]

What was your total cost??

Hi Jeff,

If you don't mind my asking, what was the cost for your new "rags"??
They look sweet!

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Sure Mympy,

I can't remember off hand how much for the individual sails, but together they were just under 2K. Understand that I pretty much went with all the whistles and bells. More basic sails would cost less.

http://www.leesails.com/

 

[Nigel Barron]

Mmmmmm sails...

Well while we are on the subject, I just ordered a new main for my Ericson 27. It appears I took a slightly different path. I am getting a full size Pentex Code 6, main, full battons, no reef point, loose footed, on a bolt rope. I went with Halsey Lidgard, or as they are called now Halsey UK, as I have had an awesome experience with them in the past. In fact, save for my staysail, all my sails are HL. For me it came down to service. Unlike big blue, they are willing to work on a design for the main with me. Quantum is the poison pill in Seattle, and with the merger all I really saw left was Halsey UK. Cost is going to be about $2,000.

The main will be delivered in November, in time for Winter Vashon, so will post pictures then.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Maybe you could post a photo

Nigel,

Maybe you could post a photo of your new main when it's hung. Kind of thinking I should have gone foot loose, I mean loose footed. My new main's a little sticky in the boom track. I am sure it will loosen up in time. Love to see that high tech sail and your performance E-27!

 

[NateHanson]

Jeff, hit that boom track and the slugs (or bolt rope) with some Harken McLube. You'll be all set.