question for you old salts

[wanderer]

Question on Fire Damage

Ok, lurked long enough, time to step out from the shadows.

I own a sweet 75 E27 and fumbling my way through this sailing stuff.

I've been looking at moving up to E35 Mk2 and found one here local.

The history behind the boat is she had a fire aboard about 7 months ago. I know the previous owner and the current owner ,who had a crew of professionals work some real magic on this vessel.

Would you folks consider a boat that's been damaged and repaired as a safe buy?
I know a good survey would find stuff (or so I'd hope!)

The boat has a clean title but I don't know if that should affect the price knowing the history of the vessel.

Thanx a bunch

 

[wanderer]

no one has any opinions on this?

 

[Sean Engle]

Fire Damage

I'll take a stab at it...

It all depends. If I were considering a boat which had experienced a fire - and then had been restored - I would - at the very least -

• First find out how much damage was done during the fire;
• What it was that was damaged;
• What was fixed;
• Who fixed it;
• How it was fixed, and then
• Have a surveyor (one having been told about the fire) go over it with a fine tooth comb.
• Obtain copies of all related insurance/repair documents which should corroborate what you're being told by the owner(s).

I would also carefully consider the sales contract and make sure that things are clearly spelled out (is the boat selling for 'salvage' value?). Set 'deal-killing' criteria before you even look at the boat - and then stick to them.

Fires can be minimal/nothing, or they can be very problematic - dependent upon the degree of damage, and how it was fixed.

There are lots of E35-2s out there - and older boats typically have other issues you'll have to address regardless. With this volume of availability, I would be hard-pressed to consider a boat that potientially could have major issues. You really want to be cautious about getting yourself in over your head (unless you have deep pockets, a love of this particular boat, and a brother who owns a boat yard).

On the other hand, if the fire was minimal - and the restoration was really good - then you might get a deal. But be VERY cautious - and be ready to pull the ejection strap.

There are tons of sailboats (and autos and everything else) on the market now from the hurricanes last year, and for the most part, you would do well to avoid them (depending upon the degree of damage, and your ability/willingness to restore the boat).

//sse

 

[Loren Beach]

Well..... Give the gang a few days to find your post -- on a spring weekend everyone is probably working on their own boat.

Also, the whole subject is quite difficult to assess when we have not seen the boat and are unlikely to. (a shortcoming of the 'net)
I have no direct information about what to look for in that particular boat, but I have read that fire (and the resultant high temps) weaken the resin bond that holds the glass fiber together, even in areas and layers not directly destroyed.
Sidebar: combustion is what is used to "burn off" the resin from a weighed sample of layup and then weigh the fiber that is left -- and tell the percentages of each.

Was this an engine/fuel fire? Galley range fire? What part of the boat had the most heat?

There are two former fire-damaged sailboats in our YC. One had an interior fire and was completely rebuild by a careful owner along with a hired shipwright. The hull integrity was not in question, as I understand it. The interior furniture and deck layup was reinforced as needed. The other boat is an older Newport 30 that was moored beside a houseboat that burned up a couple decades ago nearby. The boat was exposed to several hours of external heat on one side that damaged the gel coat and partly melted the mail sail and cover. I have no idea who first "bought it for a dollar" but the current owner has done no visible restoration, and the hull was painted over on the damaged side with a brush.
Situations vary...
Intrinsic hull construction and reputation enter into this in a major way, also. The fully restored boat is a Cascade and the other one is, um, not.

I would talk to the guy(s) that did the work on the Ericson and get a copy of the insurance claim report. The owner should have this stuff. Like you say, a good surveyor will certainly give the guidence you need to start on a decision.

Here's a web link for a guy that rebuilt a badly damaged sailboat.
http://www.triton381.com/current/seabreeze.htm
You might drop him a gentle email and see what sort of hints he can pass along. FWIW his project was a *badly* damaged boat, and probably not nearly to the extent of the Ericson you are contemplating.
Best,
Loren

 

[Guy Stevens]

Fires

There are a lot of questions about the extent of the fire that would have to be answered before I can answer your question. Then questions about the repair would follow.

The issues with fires are that they tend to be hot and burn things. Damage from burning is easy to see, damage from overheating of the fiberglass much more difficult, generally requiring some destructive testing on a section that was heated to know with any certanity the remaing strength of materials.

It sounds like you know all parties involved, and that they might be friends. If so then you may have access to a lot of data about it. Getting a local good surveyor to look at the data before actually doing a survey might be money well spent.

Guy

 

[Sean Engle]

...I have read that fire (and the resultant high temps) weaken the resin bond that holds the glass fiber together, even in areas and layers not directly destroyed. Sidebar: combustion is what is used to "burn off" the resin from a weighed sample of layup and then weigh the fiber that is left -- and tell the percentages of each.
...

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about... Even with 'normal' older boats (boats without major issues), you typically find things that have to be fixed that are NOT cheap ('not cheap' defined as more than $1000). Imagine spending tens of thousands and then finding out that your boat has some problem with it's grid or chain plates or something... No thanks.

//sse

 

[wanderer]

woohoo! it was an a/c electrical fire starboard side, hull was blistered and soft. there was no insurance claim. the poor bastard that owned it previously was in process of getting it resurveyed to increase value due to some of the work he'd done (no insurance, his loss) it's had major glass work done and interior has been refitted.

i know that a good glass repair will be stonger than the original hull but the only way i know of to really check that stuff is radiography like we do on warships in the navy

the guy that has refurbed her has a history refurbing damaged boats and has a good reputation far as i know.

thanks for all the insight.

oh the damage was not near as bad as "seabreeze"

 

[evm]

Lots of good things said. My $0.02 (if it has not been stated) is:

Ask your insurrance carrier if they will insure this boat for your agreed value.

 

[Emerald]

I am no fire expert when it comes to boats, but have lived through having a severe fire in my workshop/house I once lived in. Some things to be aware of is that the smoke in most fires carries incredibly corrosive stuff in it. You will find, almost without question, everything exposed to intense smoke (e.g. what you'd get in a closed cabin) in a fire where you burn plastics, chemicals etc, will magically die, turn to dust, disintegrate on you. If it's not metal, consider it suspect for future problems. WIth enough heat, metal has problems also - but we assume it didn't get that hot or the boat wouldn't exist any longer. So, expect all wood, plastics, fabrics, all of it, to need to be replaced. You can have people do "smoke and fire" cleaning. I had this done. It works only somewhat - you may get odor reduced/out, but the longevity of the material will be shortened. The above is just my personal experience from one fire, so it's worth what you paid for, but don't take fire lightly. Unless the boat was a give away, I would keep looking. There are a lot out there.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald

 

[wanderer]

thanx for all the responses. good inputs and pretty much mimics my own thought. just wanted some other opinions from folks far more knowledgable than myself.
i'm primarily a car/bike guy and can fix darn near anything, boats are relatively new to me. small boats anyway. i know tons about big ugly steel warships!

 

[Seth]

A final thought

The gang has covered most of the points to be considered (as they always do).

I would cap it off to simply say that if I had the hots for this model of boat (and who could blame you?), I would not turn the boat down simply based on fire history. Again, with all of the cautions already put forth, it is usually possible to effect proper repairs after a fire, and provided the boat passes a thorough survey and IS PRICED RIGHT, it might be a good buy.

WITHOUT doubt-it is not worth nearly what an undamaged boat would be-regardless of condition. If they want top dolar, pass. Not because it won't give you the same enjoyment as a non damaged boat, but because it will never bring "top dollar" when you go to sell it (unless find just the right (uneducated) buyer. So the price issue is more about investment value, than whether it is or is not better than an undanged example.

If the buyer realizes this, fine. If he thinks he has something of the same value as a boat which had not had a fire, forget it.

What are they asking? That might help us help you!

Good luck!

S

 

[wanderer]

he's asking 24K which i know it too high and wasn't even thinking of meeting him at that value. if i do pursue it, i'll have it hauled and surveyed to death before i decide

 

[jkm]

Hey-

Thought I give you some prospective. Couple years ago i bought a 35-2 that still had factory plastic on some of the cushions for that price. My boat sat in the same slip for thirty years, washed weekly and once in a while sailed.

There are great boats out there in fabulous shape and a 35-2 is a fun and trouble free boat.

John

 

[chaco]

I know this boat. She is from Oceanside. Was going to make an offer right
when it caught fire from a space heater. The PO was drying her out from taking on water from a sea water intake leak.
The boat was well kept and had lots of professional add ons.
She is the E35-II with the stern mounted engine. Most were built with the
mid engine under the Galley Sattee.
The PO was "boating up" to a 40+ Cruiser and was selling the boat without
a slip. That is why I did not continue to make an offer.
She is a good boat and I doubt that the fire did much damage that can't
be repaired. Get a THOROUGH Survey and make sure there is no HULL
DAMAGE due to excessive heat.
Good Luck and Welcome to the E35-II family !

 

[Seth]

Sounds nice

Lotta boat for about 18K, eh?

 

[wanderer]

Lotta boat for about 18K, eh?

well, he's willing to trade down. i was contemplating mine plus a couple g's

again, still mulling this over

 

[Rocinante33]

what lies beneath

Lots of great advice here! One more small thing to consider; ask the broker to let you crawl down into the cockpit lazarette hatch. The typical boat has a lot of crap piled in there that will have to be pulled out of the way - fenders, old PFDs, diesel cans, spare anchors, etc. Get in there & look around. Who knows what you will find? Also, open every single door & cabinet & look into the bilge, under the cushions, under the vee berth, under the sinks & examine what is behind it all. Any melted wires or singed glass? You can see a lot if you look into the right places.
Keith
E-33

 

[Sean Engle]

Update, please....

So what happened on this (and what is your name, anyhow)? Are you still considering this boat - or did you pass? What has happened with the boat itself?

Other E35-2s to consder...

Please let us know - we're interested to hear.

//sse