wurzner
Member III
Hugh,
I had the rudder on my former boat rebuilt by foss out of SO Cal. They used the old metal stock since it was in great shape (1977) and I was on a budget like we all are. The new rudder was based on a CAL 40 design, added about 1.5 feet if memory serves me right, and cost around 750. I've seen emails on the list of ~2500 and more, but those were for folks who were really racing their boats. Once again, do a search on rudders and you will find a wealth of knowledge since this has been a lively topic over the last few years.
shaun
I had the rudder on my former boat rebuilt by foss out of SO Cal. They used the old metal stock since it was in great shape (1977) and I was on a budget like we all are. The new rudder was based on a CAL 40 design, added about 1.5 feet if memory serves me right, and cost around 750. I've seen emails on the list of ~2500 and more, but those were for folks who were really racing their boats. Once again, do a search on rudders and you will find a wealth of knowledge since this has been a lively topic over the last few years.
shaun
windjunkee
Member III
Hugh,
Over the summer, we had the rudder modified on my 1970 E-32. I looked at a complete redesign, the purchase of an existing rudder from another vessel to be modified to fit the boat, or a modification of the existing rudder. I chose the latter of the three, based on the advice I had received.
Don't have current photos to upload, but I had Dennis Choate's shop lengthen and narrow the rudder to make it more high-aspect ratio for upwind lift and off-wind control. The modification added a couple of square feet of area to the rudder, but maintained the same rudder shaft.
The redesign would have run about $8,000 (employment of a naval architect, drawings, plans, construction costs, etc.). The modification ran $700 and the work was excellent.
Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
Over the summer, we had the rudder modified on my 1970 E-32. I looked at a complete redesign, the purchase of an existing rudder from another vessel to be modified to fit the boat, or a modification of the existing rudder. I chose the latter of the three, based on the advice I had received.
Don't have current photos to upload, but I had Dennis Choate's shop lengthen and narrow the rudder to make it more high-aspect ratio for upwind lift and off-wind control. The modification added a couple of square feet of area to the rudder, but maintained the same rudder shaft.
The redesign would have run about $8,000 (employment of a naval architect, drawings, plans, construction costs, etc.). The modification ran $700 and the work was excellent.
Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA
DO NOT HAVE FOSS DO THE 39 rudder.
There are four e-39s that have done it so far, and they are all dissatisfied. EXTREAMELY dissatisified. Bruce King has even weighed in on the mod and stated "The new rudder will not steer the boat".
Get ahold of me back channel I have pages and pages of documentation on this problems. The rudder for the 39 that Foss is selling is a BAD BAD idea. I can place you in contact with all four of the people that have them, and two that have sailed with them even...... None of them are happy.
There are other ways of doing what you want that do work. I have worked with Bruce king on both the 39 and 46 rudders and am willing to share that information with you. Please contact me before you take this route..
Guy Stevens
There are four e-39s that have done it so far, and they are all dissatisfied. EXTREAMELY dissatisified. Bruce King has even weighed in on the mod and stated "The new rudder will not steer the boat".
Get ahold of me back channel I have pages and pages of documentation on this problems. The rudder for the 39 that Foss is selling is a BAD BAD idea. I can place you in contact with all four of the people that have them, and two that have sailed with them even...... None of them are happy.
There are other ways of doing what you want that do work. I have worked with Bruce king on both the 39 and 46 rudders and am willing to share that information with you. Please contact me before you take this route..
Guy Stevens
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39 rudder mod
I had Foss do a custom rudder for my old 39 and was very pleased with
the results. They basically built an extended version of the old blade
maintaining the old profile per my dad's instructions.The added depth and blade area made a noticeable difference. This was back when they still had the original mold. The trouble now is that I understand they threw that tooling away when they moved. I guess that's why there selling what
looks to be a modified 38 blade. Probably not a great idea on a 39, a
very different boat.
Martin
I had Foss do a custom rudder for my old 39 and was very pleased with
the results. They basically built an extended version of the old blade
maintaining the old profile per my dad's instructions.The added depth and blade area made a noticeable difference. This was back when they still had the original mold. The trouble now is that I understand they threw that tooling away when they moved. I guess that's why there selling what
looks to be a modified 38 blade. Probably not a great idea on a 39, a
very different boat.
Martin
Slightly more info
The rudder in the photo is a modified cal 40 blade designed by Schumacker (sp?), however the upper x feet is cut off to make it fit the e-39 Skeg. In the end the rudder looses a ton of area, gains no depth, and as Martin's dad
put it; "you just can't get away with" The resulting rudder is significantly smaller than the original rudder. It plain old won't steer the boat. However fear not gently boater.....
Bruce King, Martin's dad has done a redraw for both the 39 and the 46, which does take care of the problem. Foss flat out won't do one of these for you... The seem to have thown the tooling away, etc.
You would be far better off redoing the rudder yourself, or having the local yard do it, they could not do it any worse than the last one I saw from Foss.
Guy
The rudder in the photo is a modified cal 40 blade designed by Schumacker (sp?), however the upper x feet is cut off to make it fit the e-39 Skeg. In the end the rudder looses a ton of area, gains no depth, and as Martin's dad
put it; "you just can't get away with" The resulting rudder is significantly smaller than the original rudder. It plain old won't steer the boat. However fear not gently boater.....Bruce King, Martin's dad
has done a redraw for both the 39 and the 46, which does take care of the problem. Foss flat out won't do one of these for you... The seem to have thown the tooling away, etc.You would be far better off redoing the rudder yourself, or having the local yard do it, they could not do it any worse than the last one I saw from Foss.
Guy
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Rudder-less thinking...
Well, sorta kinda almost off topic.
Right after we acquired the O-34, I found out that the stock rudder was the same one as the 30' Olson 911S. I had emailed Carl Schumacher in the mid 90's to ask if I could get some information about the engineering and construction of my model of boat. He responded and said he could not help me because my model was *not* his design, but the rudder was from the 911s and "was used with (his) permission."
In about a nano second it became clear that Pacific Boats had upscaled his O-911S design (and looked hard at his equally-successful Express 34) and created their own in-house design Olson 34.
Ericson built all the Olson 34's except #1, and continued the O-911S in production, and used the same rudder on all, AFAIK.
Still wondering if this would be something that would need upgrading someday, I contacted the post-Ericson Yachts owner of the O-34 tooling, a small builder up in Port Townsend, and ask about the rudder. The guy on the phone assured me that the stock rudder was way too small and wanted to build me a deeper "better" one for $2800.
On our boat budget *that* was not gonna happen. I wandered over to Schooner Creek Boatworks here in river city and talked over my rudder-ish concerns with Steve Rander, who has Lord-only-knows how many thousand ocean racing miles behind him and 30 years of boat building experience. He told me to basically forget spending any money on a rudder change, for our particular model boat, and learn to trim the sails better when/if the steering loads up. Our rudder might, in theory, be a little undersize, but not much -- and we should not use rudder area to "make up" for improper trim...
This does not, at all, address the undersize rudder issue that Guy mentions, but I wonder if I am the only sailor that ponders about making just the right upgrade that will make ALL my sailing problems go away!
Yeah, it's probably just me...
A sunny Saturday to you all,
Loren in PDX
Well, sorta kinda almost off topic.
Right after we acquired the O-34, I found out that the stock rudder was the same one as the 30' Olson 911S. I had emailed Carl Schumacher in the mid 90's to ask if I could get some information about the engineering and construction of my model of boat. He responded and said he could not help me because my model was *not* his design, but the rudder was from the 911s and "was used with (his) permission."
In about a nano second it became clear that Pacific Boats had upscaled his O-911S design (and looked hard at his equally-successful Express 34) and created their own in-house design Olson 34.
Ericson built all the Olson 34's except #1, and continued the O-911S in production, and used the same rudder on all, AFAIK.
Still wondering if this would be something that would need upgrading someday, I contacted the post-Ericson Yachts owner of the O-34 tooling, a small builder up in Port Townsend, and ask about the rudder. The guy on the phone assured me that the stock rudder was way too small and wanted to build me a deeper "better" one for $2800.
On our boat budget *that* was not gonna happen. I wandered over to Schooner Creek Boatworks here in river city and talked over my rudder-ish concerns with Steve Rander, who has Lord-only-knows how many thousand ocean racing miles behind him and 30 years of boat building experience. He told me to basically forget spending any money on a rudder change, for our particular model boat, and learn to trim the sails better when/if the steering loads up. Our rudder might, in theory, be a little undersize, but not much -- and we should not use rudder area to "make up" for improper trim...
This does not, at all, address the undersize rudder issue that Guy mentions, but I wonder if I am the only sailor that ponders about making just the right upgrade that will make ALL my sailing problems go away!
Yeah, it's probably just me...
A sunny Saturday to you all,
Loren in PDX
E39 rudder yet again
Yeah well there is only so much you can do with sail trim if we're
talking about inadequate blade area-particularly on an old IOR design.
And that (sail trim) doesn't address handling under power something
that boat isn't particularly good at. Having owned that boat and done
this mod after numerous discussions with the designer, I'm here to tell
you that I saw less weather helm, less helm effort, and better handling
under power particularly when coupled with a feathering prop. Had I
kept her, the next thing going to be replaced was the yacht specialties
pedestal with cheap plastic bushings (talk about sloppy) with something
decent-something I'm addressing on my present boat. Anyway, I guess
with production boats the point I'm trying to make is there is lots
of room for improvement.
Martin
Yeah well there is only so much you can do with sail trim if we're
talking about inadequate blade area-particularly on an old IOR design.
And that (sail trim) doesn't address handling under power something
that boat isn't particularly good at. Having owned that boat and done
this mod after numerous discussions with the designer, I'm here to tell
you that I saw less weather helm, less helm effort, and better handling
under power particularly when coupled with a feathering prop. Had I
kept her, the next thing going to be replaced was the yacht specialties
pedestal with cheap plastic bushings (talk about sloppy) with something
decent-something I'm addressing on my present boat. Anyway, I guess
with production boats the point I'm trying to make is there is lots
of room for improvement.
Martin