Sail ordering.. company? size? ..comments? Ericson 28

[Sidnewport]

I am looking to replace the very old sails on my Ericson 28.

I'm looking at 2 discount companies... Direct Sails and Rolly Tasker. Any feedback on either of those? Or any reason to go local?

Also, for the jib size... I have had what appears to be a 110 or 115 jib, and I would like to go a little bigger. I'd like to get a bit more power while nauntaining easy salhandling and good visibility. I do same bearcan PHRF racing and have been pointing quite well, but could use a bit more oomph to keep up with my rating.

I was thinking of going to a 124 and sticking to the inner sail track, but had considered maybe a 136 and using the outer track. Any thoughts on the pros and cons between the two? I'm considering multiples of 6 because of the PHRF rules.

Anyway, I would apprecuate any insignts on either of the issues... Discount sail companies and jib size.

 

[bigd14]

I went with Precision Sails for my main, you have to measure everything yourself and then do a phone consult to go over all the details and what you want. I am happy with the sail and the buying experience.

 

[Out There]

I got good sails from Rolly Tasker through nationalsail.com for my catalina 22. Been quite happy with sail quality.
There is something to be said for local but that is almost a political discussion. I felt guilty when going to a local sail loft to add a reef to my main.

 

[Sidnewport]

How did any measuring work 9ut, if there was any? They didn't mention.

 

[bigd14]

Not sure if your question was directed to me, but if so, Precision has a very detailed form and instructions for measuring both the existing sail and the current conditions of the mast and boom on the boat. For the mainsail they ask for a bunch of photos of mast rake, backstay tension etc. l am sure something similar would be required for a headsail.

 

[bgary]

It depends.

If you're comfortable with measuring yourself, want the lowest price and don't care about after-purchase support... discount is probably fine.

For me - I'm fussy about my sails, and really want them to be "right". So I tend toward a loft that will come out to the boat and do the measuring, ask me stuff (purpose, shape, anticipated sailing conditions, material preferences, durability, etc, etc)... and - most important to me - will support the sail after they have my money. That last thing has proven to be worth the price difference a number of times.

Many times, these days, a big factor in the price is the commission to a salesman who may not know or care anything about you and your boat, he/she is paid to take the order. I prefer lofts where you can at least talk to the person who will be designing the sail. One example, the UK loft near me is a small one-man shop - the sails are actually built in Canada and shipped in pieces to the loft, where they are assembled - but that one guy is a very good sailmaker, and deeply cares about the sail being right for you. That kinda relationship is worth... something.

ymmv.

 

[Nick J]

I had good luck with Precision on my 25+. After a year of trying to get a local loft to pick up the phone or respond to an email without any luck, I decided to go with Precision. their measuring form was easy to work through. After I submitted it, they scheduled a meeting online to work through the design and go over some options. Price was great, but I only had one other loft to compare it to. The only problem I had was we received the new sail in September and I found our new boat at the end of November, so I didn't get much time actually using the sail. Hopefully the new owner has enjoyed it over the past 6 years (maybe he can add a comment)

When it comes time to order new sails for our current boat, I'll try to go through a local loft again, but I won't hesitate to use Precision if I can't get anyone to pick up the phone again.

 

[Sidnewport]

I know about the measuring with precision, but I was, asking note about the other Asian lofts, Direct and Rolly Tasker. Do they just cut a sail based on the boat model? That saomds a bit iffy.
But my issue in ane event is I am away and will not have much time for measuring before storage, and I was planning on pulling the mast this winter..

 

[Out There]

For my Catalina 22 I ordered from the menu without measuring. I guess they do that because so many Catalinas have been sold. The result was I got a main sail about 2-3 inches taller than I wanted but fortunately lowering the boom on that boat is simple. Good thing the foot wasn't a couple inches too long. That's probably the last time I trust and not measure.

 

[Loren Beach]

For my Catalina 22 I ordered from the menu without measuring. I guess they do that because so many Catalinas have been sold. The result was I got a main sail about 2-3 inches taller than I wanted but fortunately lowering the boom on that boat is simple. Good thing the foot wasn't a couple inches too long. That's probably the last time I trust and not measure.

It's been awhile since typing in a sail "measuring" comment here, but back when Bigfoot walked (stomped?) the earth I was selling sails in my area for a big Seattle loft for several years.
I measured all sorts of places for a mainsail. And in those days before the internet, took photos of the gooseneck area and clew area. There was a detailed drawing to mark up, from the loft manager. Good news was that they always got it "right." Also, customer sailing conditions and how bendy the rig. Desired % reduction for a reef (or 2). Draft stripes added and class emblem, and sail number. Etc. Etc.
Pay attention to exact measurement for black band on the boom and mast.

I had heard some cautionary tales about occasional customers insisting that their old sail have it's measurements duplicated.... and then got upset when the new sail did not fit properly after they had overruled good advice from the loft.
Yikes. That did not happen with me, luckily.
So, do all the due diligence at the measurement and descriptive point. That's where the Happiness starts.

All that, and also get some bids from the larger national or regional lofts.
And when the "magic works" as the saying goes, it can all look a bit like this photo. Solid 7 knots to weather! https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/o-34-close-hauled.19173/

 

[Dave G.]

FWIW, I have had horrible experiences with on line "Lofts'. If you are lucky enough to live in an area with a local loft I highly recommend using them. It's worth the extra cash and peace of mind. When things go wrong and your loft is 1500 miles away in Florida(who actually gets the sails made in Thailand) It gets ugly, time consuming, and pricey fast. Just my 2 cents.

 

[bigd14]

I had some follow up with Precision about the Tides sliders screws not fitting tightly in the batten receptacles. They were extremely helpful and were willing to redo the sail if there was a problem. They tested various receptacles against the Tides slider threads in their shop and we came to the conclusion that the ones installed would work (they did tighten up when screwed all the way down).
Anyway, I was impressed with their engagement both during and after the sale. YMMV.

 

[Sidnewport]

My problem is that the prices at local lofts here are over the top. I got a quote from Dave Simmons of Quantum for $3500 for the main alone for my Ericson 28, and Richard Bulgin from Direct Sails quoted me about $2700 for both the main and a 124 jib. Bulgin says that he has made sails before for Ericson 28s with satisfied customers (of course he would say that) and that one of his coworkers used to have one (would say that too). I asked Quantum about the price and they have not gotten back to me.

Direct did send me a measurement sheet which is about the same as Precision's with a few minor differences. The low price is really tempting, but I would like to hear from some of his "satisfied" customers.

 

[AK67]

My E28-2 came with Genoa by Precision and a main by Doyle. Happy with both and they seem to be holding up well. Their sale pricing should be coming up soon.

 

[ConchyDug]

My wife works at a Quantum loft and said a good percentage of their business is correcting/repairing "online loft" sails. She noted Precision uses cheap thread particularly in their spinnakers. Generally your local loft will know your phrf rating system as well so you can eek out a couple more seconds/mile. Also the local lofts go and install the sails to verify they fit(will correct if needed) and will join you on a sail to tune them. It's definitely a get what you pay for item.

 

[Sidnewport]

I understand improved service, but is it reall worth 3x the price? I asked Quantum about that and they did not get back to me.

 

[ConchyDug]

I understand improved service, but is it reall worth 3x the price? I asked Quantum about that and they did not get back to me.

Like a lot of things in sailing "it depends". I think that's a question only you can really answer. If you just want some ok new sails then online sails will probably work if they fit the boat on the first try. If the Quantum loft is nearby I would go visit them and check out their examples or customer's sails that are in for repair. There is a lot more attention to detail with a local loft. A local loft will have more customization options available and they can build sails geared more towards what you want to do with them like cruising/club racing. You're also paying for their proprietary sail design which is developed over years. For instance I was on a J120 for an overnight race and realized we had glow in the dark draft stripes on the Ullman sails, super helpful for trimming dark sails at night. That said if I had something like a Catalina 25 that I just putted around the bay in it would have cheap sails on it.

 

[Christian Williams]

You're in Newport, R.I. I would call a loft there and discuss your needs. Or if you're close, drop by for a discussion of what sort of sailing you do, how long will keep the boat, and so on. That's what sail reps do--they go over options. They have often talked me out of my own bright ideas.

An estimate is easy for them, since the boat dimensions are known (they will measure before ordering).

Then you can compare prices of the budget outfits, with a pro rep's advice in hand.

The reps i know enjoy analyzing needs, and they know they have competition. The good ones are it it for relationshjips, word of mouth, and they know a lot more than we do about mistakes we buyers tend to make and what the arguments are for high-clew vs decksweeper, lighter cloths, roller furling padding, 'need" (will I go faster?) and budgets. You are to them a potential customer but also a walking advertisement. Perhaps you;re broke but crew on a gold-plater, or will someday buy a bigger boat, or at very least came to them for advice, which is flattering. Good reps need an audience for their performance, and we're it.

In the end, the financial decision is pretty easy, and nothing is lost by getting to know a sailmaker rep.

 

[Acorn]

My wife works at a Quantum loft and said a good percentage of their business is correcting/repairing "online loft" sails. She noted Precision uses cheap thread particularly in their spinnakers. Generally your local loft will know your phrf rating system as well so you can eek out a couple more seconds/mile. Also the local lofts go and install the sails to verify they fit(will correct if needed) and will join you on a sail to tune them. It's definitely a get what you pay for item.

I looked into Precision Sails as well for my 25+, but after asking around, I decided to pay a little extra, and go with Ullman. A couple racers I know said they wouldn't consider Precision, and Ullman has an impeccable reputation. But, the real deciding factor for me was their location. I live in Southern California, and they work out of Newport. They'll be coming up to my marina this Monday, taking measurements, and meeting with me in person to discus my specific criteria.

That kind of customer service goes a long way, IMO. Everyone they've got working for them knows their business-- I've actually raced with and against a couple of their employees, and they run seminars on sail trim. North Sails run similar seminars, as well. But, depending on where you live, if you can find a decent sailmaker that's local, and will take their own measurements, I think it's worth getting that direct customer service. With Precision, for example, if your measurements are off, it's on you. An inch can make a big difference!

 

[Loren Beach]

My last several new sails from North and earlier from UK, could not have been "three times" more expensive than any other possible source. I say that because no loft anywhere could have built a dacron sail for 1/3 of what I paid; more like half or 2/3; and that would be without any on-boat measurement and setup.
(Decades ago, for a few years, I was a local rep. for a national sailmaker and always sweated bullets over providing enough measurements and pix to eliminate errors -- or at least errors made by me.)

That particular multiplier (2X or 3X) just seems very difficult to believe, to me. I now work with the local loft and stay in touch with 'em, and maybe (no proof, tho) get treated better for both service and price than some other one-shot customers. Not really sure of that, since we only need a new sail every decade or so. (?)

Presently our North jib was just dropped off for minor chafe repairs and checking of stitching. Next will be our main for the same sort of attention. Since neither of these sails are white dacron, but rather a step up in material, there is likely no way to compare them to a sail from a bargain loft. When you factor in personal service and knowledge, comparisons are more difficult.