Sail Pack, Lazy Jacks or Nothing ?

[K2MSmith]

Next week Hood Sails is installing a Tides Sail Track system on my E-33 next week and I am looking forward to it. Today was a bit of a disaster on my 2nd sail struggling to get the big main with rope track up on my E-33 with a very under powered halyard winch. (and under-powered arms .

For this mod, I am going to at least need a new sail cover (I expect it will be around 800) and since I have to buy a new sail cover I am wondering if I go all the way and invest in a Lazy Jack/Stack Pack combo which is what I was used to on my previous club boat.

Options are:

1) Just get a new regular sail cover only and flake the sail manually- advantages: simple, lowest cost. disadvantages: the E-33 has a big main and I need more practice doing this single-handed. (maybe will be easier with Tides system installed ?)

2) Get lazy jacks with a slotted sail cover made to "go-around" the lazy's - advantages: helps flak the sail single handed. disadvantages: usual issues with lazy jacks, they can get tangled in the sail/batons if you are not directly into the wind. Have heard mixed reviews about this type of cover.

3) Get Lazy Jacks with a "stack pack" cover - advantages: easiest to put away. disadvantages: additional cost and problems mentioned in (2) with Lazy Jacks. Heard also that the stack pack can affect sailing performance.

I am leaning towards 3) or 1). Thoughts ?

 

[Kenneth K]

Might also consider a Dutchman Sail Flaking system. Most people that have them like them.

Lazy Jacks or Dutchman? - The argument for the Dutchman

Most cruising sailors sail short-handed, and there is many a sailor who rejects in-mast or in-boom furling. Here we look at alternatives, and give the argument for the Dutchman Sail Flaking system over Lazy Jacks.

www.sail-world.com

 

[JSM]

On my last boat I added a strong track and a Mack Pack with lazy jacks from Mack Sails in Stuart , Fl. Between the strong track and the Mack Pack the main was neaver easier to handle, head up into the wind , release the halyard and the main drops and practically flakes itself. Push the sail into the pack , zip it up and you're done in minutes.
When we bought our 34-2 four years ago a Mack Pack was the first we added to the boat.

http://macksails.com/mack-pack/

 

[Slick470]

You can also do retractable lazy jacks and use a normal sail cover. Takes a bit more hardware, but you can retract the lazy jacks back to the mast once the sail is up, and after it is down and secured.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

The first project on my 87 E34 was to make a stack pack from Sailrite, best project ever.

 

[kiwisailor]

I have a Dutchman system and it is great raising the sail I don't have to worry about it snagging on the lazy jack lines and when I drop the sail it flakes nicely onto the boom.

 

[Loren Beach]

That main on the 33RH is really huge. The boat I used to crew on did install a Tides plastic track, and the owner loved it. Sail goes up n down quickly.
That boat did use the retractable lazy jack system referenced in reply 4, and we would just release and pull both sides of the "jacks" up to the gooseneck (after applying the sail ties) before putting on the conventional sail cover.

 

[K2MSmith]

You can also do retractable lazy jacks and use a normal sail cover. Takes a bit more hardware, but you can retract the lazy jacks back to the mast once the sail is up, and after it is down and secured.

That seems like an interesting solution because you could add the retract lazy jacks to a rig with a normal sail cover if I understand correctly.

 

[K2MSmith]

I'll also have to see how much reduced friction the Tides provides because right now I just have a little 4" non-self tailing halyard winch near the mast and it was a struggle for me to get the mainsail up myself. (though not hard if someone is tailing the line and you can use both hands on the handle and/or pull the halyard out from the mast). That's a different problem although somewhat related because it looks like I would need a #35 self-tailing winch (according to the "P" number of the sail = 43) to solve that problem (and those are about 900.00 )

 

[Slick470]

That seems like an interesting solution because you could add the retract lazy jacks to a rig with a normal sail cover if I understand correctly.

yes, that is the intent. You can also retract them while sailing to minimize chafe on the sail. If I ever install them on our Olson, I'll do the retractable style. Harken sells a kit, but there are lots of styles/designs that you can find online to match boat styles and preferences. A competent rigger could also sort one out for you.

 

[Christian Williams]

If you often find yourself a casual singlehander (meaning solo or with an "enjoyment-only" crew), then lazy jacks are a boon. The Tides system drops the sail like a piano, and the lazy jacks hold it in place. Otherwise somebody has to jump up there and "do something" with sail ties, often while maneuvering.

But I am tired of my slotted lazy jacks mainsail cover. Fifty-five snaps, and the slots leak rainwater. It allows the lazyjacks to be rigged at all times, which is really cool. But next time I will try a standard sail cover, and draw the lazy jacks to the mast when cleaning up in the slip.

Lazy jacks say "cruising boat." If I was a club racer with a crew I wouldn't have them and let humans do the work of flaking and gaskets.

Stack pack? Ah, now to the realm of opinion, taste, and mortal combat of the soul. I hate the way those things look and I ain't going sailing wearing the bag the sail came in. Along with dodgers, biminis and champagne splits, stack packs are just wrong.

 

[K2MSmith]

Lazy jacks say "cruising boat." If I was a club racer with a crew I wouldn't have them and let humans do the work of flaking and gaskets.

Stack pack? Ah, now to the realm of opinion, taste, and mortal combat of the soul. I hate the way those things look and I ain't going sailing wearing the bag the sail came in. Along with dodgers, biminis and champagne splits, stack packs are just wrong.

As you can tell from the profile picture (scanned from a newsletter), the boat was raced a lot and it's setup that way. For me as the new owner, I might do an occasional crew race (to be determined) but I single-hand 90% of the time, maybe occasionally with guests or family members that are willing to help out a little with some instruction.

I'm kind of leaning towards option #1, pending tests with the Tides when installed next week. If I have to spend 900 on a new halyard winch (and additional hardware to reroute back to cockpit) because I'm still struggling to get the main up myself then it's an easy call. Sometimes makes it easier when the budget decides for you.

 

[Christian Williams]

New winch may not be necessary with the Tides. Here's unedited footage of a 176-year-old man raising a 9.3 oz. Dacron 380 square-foot mainsail with four full-length battens--hand over hand. And as you can see, leading the halyard back adds a step if there is no one in the cockpit to take up the slack (Dyneema halyard kinks and fouls unless laid out for retrieval).

 

[Nick J]

I made a set of retractable lazy jacks for my 25+ I used with a standard sail cover. They connected to the boom at three spots and had control lines run through cheek blocks placed 2/3rds up the mast back down to small cleats. I deployed them right before taking the sail down, used sail ties to secure the sail to the boom, the pulled them back to the mast. It worked perfectly.

When I ordered a new sail, my brand new sail cover didn't fit, so I started contemplating making a stack pack. I was getting really exited about it when I found my 35-3 which happened to come with a Doyle stack pack and dodger. The first sail quickly showed the drawbacks. The battens ALWAYS get caught on the jacks regardless of where the wind is, you cant see the problem when hoisting from the cockpit, and just like a sleeping bag or tent bag, the stack pack is JUST big enough to fit the sail. No room for error which results in standing on my tip toes on the edge of the cockpit seat desperately trying to reach a zipper pull while wrestling a swinging boom that's trying to send me flying from the boat. It doesn't even look that good when doing its actual job of covering the sail at the dock. All that being said, It's near the bottom of things I need to address right now, so it will stay for a while.

 

[Geoff W.]

I have retractable lazy jacks on my 32-3 and like them a lot. I only ever use them singlehanded, though, or if we're dumping the main to do a touch-and-go in a marina. They do require extra cinching down when at the slip or they become another thing to bang against the mast.

I always put the lazy jacks away and tie the sail up with a proper/regular mainsail cover at the end of a day.

edit: I also never hoist with the lazyjacks up. At least, I would put away the leeward set before hoisting the sail, and that would be if I was feeling particularly lazy that day and no one was there to admonish me or witness it.

 

[K2MSmith]

New winch may not be necessary with the Tides. Here's unedited footage of a 176-year-old man raising a 9.3 oz. Dacron 380 square-foot mainsail with four full-length battens--hand over hand. And as you can see, leading the halyard back adds a step if there is no one in the cockpit to take up the slack (Dyneema halyard kinks and fouls unless laid out for retrieval).

Never underestimate the power of a 176-year old man ! Thanks for the video Christian. I have enjoyed watching all of them.

I just did a quick check on sailboatdata.com, the E-33 has 303 ft2 of main sail area, well under the 380 for your E381. Sails are UK carbon tape (I think they are 5-10 years old) so not sure how weight of mylar (assuming carbon is negligible) compares to dacron.

At any rate, I am getting very excited about the Tides install coming up next week. I was going to order the parts and do it myself, but the sailmaker has to modify the sail anyway so I'm going to leave it up to a pro. He's coming to the dock and apparently he can do the grommet installation right there. Hoping he can give me some advice while he's at it.

 

[Slick470]

My guess is that carbon tape sail will be much lighter than dacron. I ordered a new 140% dacron triradial RF genoa for family sailing last year and compared to my racing sails, that thing is heavy. I don't mind lifting the 155% kevlar-mylar triradial, but the dacron 140% is a beast.

 

[toddster]

I've had stack pack & lazy jacks on the project list for a long time. But the truth is, that with my relatively small main, I don't need them 90% of the time. As long as I can find clear space in the marina to drift for a couple of minutes, I can drop the sail and do a quick sloppy flake, tied up with the dangling reefing lines. Enough to park the boat anyway.

Then one of those ten percent days comes along...

The plan is to make the stack pack so that It can be rolled up and secured along the side of the boom. Though I would probably never really do that on a day sail.

 

[Bolo]

I just had my sail maker install a Tides Track, Lazy Jacks and what they call their Lazy bag on our E32-3. It was just recently done and I've only had the boat out on the Chesapeake Bay in about 6 knots of wind so far which was good for the first time to see how things worked together. I'm sure in higher winds things will be wonderful and I won't be bouncing up and down on the deck while trying to flake and rig the sail ties much to the relief (and mine too) of my wife. Christian is right, with the Tides Track the sail does drop like a piano out of a three story building, and although the sail doesn't quite lay nice and neat in the bag that's all taken care of back at the dock where things are calmer. Then just zip it right up, zip on the front piece and you're literally good to go. As for sail shape I don't see it mattering too much but then I'm mostly a cruiser and not racing the boat. For longer passages the bag can be folded in on the mast and secured with some sown in loops but I've not done that yet and probably won't on the bay. And I know that some sailors don't like the look of the bag (biminis, connectors or dodgers too) but I do like the look and the rest of the canvas keep the spray off the "admiral" (and me) and the sun off too which is especially nice since I've already have had two bouts with cancer. Also since I often single hand the boat the new setup will make things a lot safe and easier. Especially since my (almost) 69 year old body can now haul the main up from the cockpit because of the Tides Track, with just a bit of cranking needed to tighten the luff, and drop from there too right into the bag.

 

[Bolo]

New winch may not be necessary with the Tides. Here's unedited footage of a 176-year-old man raising a 9.3 oz. Dacron 380 square-foot mainsail with four full-length battens--hand over hand. And as you can see, leading the halyard back adds a step if there is no one in the cockpit to take up the slack (Dyneema halyard kinks and fouls unless laid out for retrieval).

Christian, I like the first part where you look into the camera from the top. Don't edit that out.