Shopping for Sails - Questions

[Slick470]

A brand new sail should need little or no leach or foot line tension, however, as the sail ages and stretches, the lines can prevent the leach or foot from fluttering or flapping which can cause further damage. Over tensioning it is bad though and can cause more stretch, so give it just enough tension to stop the fluttering. If it causes hooking of the sail, it's probably time to go visit your sailmaker for a recut or maybe even a new sail.

Obviously sails change shape from use, UV, and/or just the properties of the materials they are made of as they age. The leach and foot lines are just additional tools to help cope with those changes until it's time to do something about those changes. Another one that can help for mainsails is relaxing the bolt rope every now and then. They tend to shrink over time which in turn shrinks the luff and can throw off the overall shape of the sail. Usually there are just a few hand stiches along the luff so a pretty easy thing to do yourself, or have a sailmaker take care of.

 

[Christian Williams]

That's a good explanation of leech-line utility and value.

 

[Kenneth K]

We're planning to take our boom apart this winter. I'll look into that. We are going with a loose footed main, though are still in cogitating mode for other details.

Here's the boom-internal outhaul rig on a 32-3. I believe it's 4:1, and likely the same on an E35. All my hardware was in good shape so I re-used it and simply replaced the rope.



Kenyon had the rope exiting near the mast so you had to go forward to adjust the outhaul. With my slug-foot-main (and usual solo sailing) this didn't work for me as I usually have to both depower the sail and tug on a few slugs to make an adjustment. I ran both the outhaul and the topping lift to the aft end of the boom so they're both within reach of the helm. The downside, of course, is occasionally having to alter course to bring the boom in towards centerline.

That's what's great about sole ownership--you set your boat up for the way you use it, regardless of what the "experts" say. Hell, in 10-15 years, the next owners of some of our boats will be bragging on this same site about re-doing many of the changes some dumb previous owners made to "their" boats.

 

[Christian Williams]

3:1, right?

 

[Kenneth K]

4:1 when the rope (shown dangling) is pulled forward (to where it exits near the mast), opposite the direction of outhaul force (F). I think....

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Here's the boom-internal outhaul rig on a 32-3. I believe it's 4:1, and likely the same on an E35. All my hardware was in good shape so I re-used it and simply replaced the rope.

View attachment 44443

Kenyon had the rope exiting near the mast so you had to go forward to adjust the outhaul. With my slug-foot-main (and usual solo sailing) this didn't work for me as I usually have to both depower the sail and tug on a few slugs to make an adjustment. I ran both the outhaul and the topping lift to the aft end of the boom so they're both within reach of the helm. The downside, of course, is occasionally having to alter course to bring the boom in towards centerline.

That's what's great about sole ownership--you set your boat up for the way you use it, regardless of what the "experts" say. Hell, in 10-15 years, the next owners of some of our boats will be bragging on this same site about re-doing many of the changes some dumb previous owners made to "their" boats.

Ken,
(my emphasis, above) I think about this too. Some of the things I'm 'fixing', the PO thought were a good idea.
> Which end of the boom gave you the best access to the internal bits?
Jeff

 

[southofvictor]

View attachment 44455

4:1 when the rope (shown dangling) is pulled forward (to where it exits near the mast), opposite the direction of outhaul force (F). I think....

That’s a great question that I’ve always struggled with. I think Christian is right 3:1, because you don’t count the line part you’re pulling on in the system. Anyone else have a way to explain it?

 

[Jerry VB]

Every time the line goes through a moving pulley, the force is divided by two (2x purchase multiplier). Every time the line goes through a stationary pulley, the direction of the pull is changed but the force is not.

@Kenneth K's picture has the line passing through two moving pulleys (and one stationary pulley), so the purchase is 4:1.

Ref: https://www.studysmarter.us/explanations/math/mechanics-maths/pulleys/

 

[G Kiba]

Even new sails may require leech adjustments when the wind pipes up. I have a brand new main and the leech at the upper third of the sail will begin to flap at times (full main no reef). The adjustment is usually about an inch of tension.

 

[Kenneth K]

Which end of the boom gave you the best access to the internal bits?

Jeff,

Didn't want to hijack this thread topic so I started a new post, here https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/boom-refurbish.20163/#post-159223

Ken

 

[Kenneth K]

That’s a great question that I’ve always struggled with. I think Christian is right 3:1, because you don’t count the line part you’re pulling on in the system. Anyone else have a way to explain it?

Like good, modern, public-school math, this is a case (in my understanding) where nobody gets the wrong answer. The picture in post #43, above, without further explanation, is 3:1, as shown by red arrow, below. The tension (T) is the same everywhere throughout the line. With the red arrow, F = 3T (a 3:1) and the last pulley is simply changing the direction of the pull line downward. Tugging the moveable pully downward doesn't increase the force on F (much) as the downward pull is mostly wasted.



As the pull line is moved further forward (yellow arrow), the direction change in the pull-line starts to contribute to tugging the moveable pulley away from the load, so F = 3T + cosine [angle of pull] .

When the pull line is completely opposite the load (as it is when installed in boom), F = 4T.

So, the direction of pull matters. Gold stars for everyone!

 

[bigd14]

And this is why I keep coming back here. Great explanation for my math-challenged self Ken!

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Well, we visited the sail loft and ordered sails today. We went with a local Quantum affiliate who have been in the sail business for three generations. The owner, our prime contact, is a lifelong sailor and still wins races in his J/29. Also, for what it’s worth, we liked him. The sails will be designed, cut, and assembled in their facility here in RI. We decided on the following:

- Crosscut Main, Contender Supercruise Dacron, 8.4 oz., loose foot, two reefs at the standard heights, two full battens and two partial, cunningham cringle, leech line aft, other bits of titivating

- 135% Jib, Tri-Radial cut, Challenge Newport Pro Radial Dacron, 8.1 oz., rope luff flattener, clew will be about 6” above the lifelines, ‘reefable’ to about 110% with decent shape, other bits of titivating

All of your reflections here were very helpful. Thanks much! We drove the bus, but ended up relying a good deal on the advice of the sailmaker. Going with the crosscut main (which saved us about $600) and a tri-radial jib, both in polyester (Dacron), was our way of finding a mid point between cruising and racing (Jeff=Walter Mitty).


This sailmaker has factory blueprints of sail plans from a wide range of manufacturers. It was cool to see the one of our boat. In addition, he knows Ericsons well because at one point he was an Ericson dealer. He’s been making sails for an E35-3 owner who actively races it. So, we’re pretty comfortable with our decision. However, it seems like people usually are cheerful and excited when they first order. It will be interesting to see how we feel in three years. We can’t wait for May to try them out!

These also were helpful in our decision making. Sorta. I’m reminded of the line: “The man with one watch always knows what time it is. The man with two watches never does.” There are a Lot of opinions out there.
1 https://www.sailmagazine.com/gear/choosing-the-right-headsail-for-your-sailboat
2 https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/the-science-of-headsails-part-ii
3

primarily helpful in understanding the fill, warp, woof, crinkle structures of the fabric. That one had eluded me. I looked through their video listings a bit but didn’t find one where they did a follow up review on the sails.

Thanks again!!

Cheers,

Jeff

 

[Christian Williams]

 

[Nick J]

That's kind of a confusing drawing. They're saying the load is on the bottom which would make all correct, but it's in a sailing forum so I first thought of a mainsheet system where the load is on the top. Gravity wins again...

 

[Kenneth K]

The last "wrap" (at the top) in each case, is still just a direction reversal and doesn't add any leverage.

If, for example, someone lifted straight upwards from the green arrows, each case would still be 2/3/4/5 to 1, as above.



But likely, running out of pulleys, the tired guy at the factory doesn't want to climb to the top of the scaffold to lift, so he just pulls sideways from below (yellow arrows) or downward (red). Unknowingly, he just undid one of the wraps on the moving pulley and changed the ratios to 1/2/3/4 to one, so he'll be working harder anyway.

He should have just left the damned thing alone.

 

[Loren Beach]

Here is a drawing for our factory stock Harken 6 to 1 mainsheet system.
It can be a little confusing to reeve the sheet thru the blocks the first time.
Works great with no chafing or binding.
I would not want any less purchase.

 

[K2MSmith]

I would serious look at a “cruising” laminate fabric if you mainly cruise but do occasional racing. This gives your some of the properties of a race sail. (Lighter weight and lower stretch) but it going to be much more durable than race sails and hold shape longer than Dacron. I went with North and based on the reps recommendation for the type of sailing I do, we went with laminate.. My E33 has a very large main (maybe bigger than the E35 and the cost of the mainsail was somewhere around 5K and 100% jib was 3K. Both sails are have battens. They have been on the boat for about a year and half and very happy with them.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

We got our first look at our new sails yesterday. The sailmakers need to trim the battens and put the logo on, but otherwise they're ready to go. Very crispy. Now the hard part, waiting 4-5 months to try them out!



We've enjoyed working with Steve Thurston, Quantum Sails in Bristol, RI. His grandfather started the business.

 

[dhill]

I've had Steve make sails for smaller sailboats and the results were great! I've had Quantum sails on two sailboats and really like their shape and performance, each time making a big difference.

This is a difficult time of year...