Terra Nova: Flooding

[supersailor]

I have sprayed the Navitech rod endings and Aluminum billets with penetrate and LPS2. I was going to add marine grease but my fingers are too fat. Do you think that the LPS2 treatment is enough? They look wonderful now. I could spray them with LPS3 which is a sealant.

 

[supersailor]

I promised I would post the "new and improved" sink drain after it was designed. It is not yet installed but the picture attached shows it. The hose is Trident 101 Sanitation Hose with a metal coil embedded in it. It will be double clamped at all terminations including the sink tailpieces and it will need to be flexed to drop the hose below the tailpieces. This is as close to foolproof as I can get. Even if the tailpieces are loose, the hose can't slip off. I will try to get a good installed picture after installation. It might be hard to get a good shot.

 

[Loren Beach]

Clamps !

For some reason that picture of all those hose clamps.....
reminded me of the Robot Mafia character from "Futurama" .....
Clamps!



Loren

 

[Tomwine]

Sink Drian

On my E 35 Mk 2 the sink drain shares the same sea cock with the starboard cockpit drain. I always close this drain whenever I leave the boat. I leave the port side open just in case there is a heavy rain so the cockpit can still drain. These two sea cocks and thru hulls scare me more than any on the boat. I wish there was a good way to eliminate both of them. There must be someone somewhere that has figured out a better way to drain the cockpit rather than straight down. Let me know if anyone has a good solution for this terrible design flaw.

I am glad you saved your boat.

 

[supersailor]

Loren, You thought that there were hose clamps before! My little Lumex actually got good shots of the full installation. There is now no way that the hose can slip off the tailpieces. All connections are now either double clamped or screw on. I doubt that two plumbing nuts can both back off about seven turns each. The Trident 101 has a metal spiral in it to keep things stiff and the little bend in it will keep the nuts pressed against the tailpiece even if they back off (highly unlikely). I will not go through an attempted sinking again. The shot of the old drain shows that the tailpieces were held on by squeeze washers with a tightening nut. The problem with this is that, if the drain is bumped, it can break the seal and the drain can slip off. If any of you have this system, please replace it now. even with a stiffer hose than I had, the water was only a couple of inches below the split for the dual sinks. All it needed was a slight sag and, presto, a full boat. I don't wish that on anyone.

My new system may be over engineered but I don't believe that a problem should ever reoccur.

Also, don't store stuff in this area. A guy stopped by the boat yesterday. He had the same problem with a 35-2 in San Francisco. He had a tool kit under the sink and it had hit the sink drain on a passage from Long Beach to San Francisco. It failed while he was shopping. When he returned, he found the boat filling. A jump in the water was very electrifying for him as a heater was going at the time. Electrical off at the dock before jumping in!

 

[bradh]

35-2 Sink and Cockpit Seacock

On my E 35 Mk 2 the sink drain shares the same sea cock with the starboard cockpit drain. I always close this drain whenever I leave the boat. I leave the port side open just in case there is a heavy rain so the cockpit can still drain. These two sea cocks and thru hulls scare me more than any on the boat. I wish there was a good way to eliminate both of them. There must be someone somewhere that has figured out a better way to drain the cockpit rather than straight down. Let me know if anyone has a good solution for this terrible design flaw.

I am glad you saved your boat.

Tom,

I second this - it is one I think of often on my 35-2. There is one other more minor issue with this configuration. If the starboard seacock is closed and it rains hard, you will actually begin to fill the sink via the drain (even with the port seacock open, albeit slowly).

My congrats also. Great job on the fast work.

Brad

 

[Shelman]

On my E 35 Mk 2 the sink drain shares the same sea cock with the starboard cockpit drain. I always close this drain whenever I leave the boat. I leave the port side open just in case there is a heavy rain so the cockpit can still drain. These two sea cocks and thru hulls scare me more than any on the boat. I wish there was a good way to eliminate both of them. There must be someone somewhere that has figured out a better way to drain the cockpit rather than straight down. Let me know if anyone has a good solution for this terrible design flaw.

I am glad you saved your boat.

Tom, on my E-26 mk III the cockpit drains exit through the transom (way above static waterline) I have no worries about them being left open at the dock. Actually they don't have or need sea-cocks on them at all, just bronze through hulls double clamped with non perforated hose clamps, and heavy nylon reinforced hose. You could conceivably add new through hulls for you cockpit drains that exited above waterline, and use the other for just the sink. It would be some work, but it might make you sleep better at night.

 

[supersailor]

One has to be careful connecting multiple drains through a single through hull. Last year I helped deliver a 36-RH last year from Port Angeles to Port Haddlock. The boat had been delivered from Victoria (where he had just purchased it). One of his biggest complaints was that the bilge pump was running all the time. Some troubleshooting uncovered that the drain line from his water cooled refer had been attached to his electric bilge pump drain hose which exited underwater, It was back flowing into the bilge every time the fridge ran. A bad installation admittedly, but I am a firm believer that two drains should not be drained out of one thru hull. I have become very allergic to bilge water for some strange reason.

Several manufacturers make drain fittings that bend 90 degrees. That, combined with a 90 degree bend should easily allow the cockpit drains to be brought above the waterline eliminating the need for that thru hull and meaning you never will get caught a bad thunder storm or have your sink drain fall apart with an open seacock.

I am having the greatest difficulty even getting anyone to come out and give me an estimate for damages that have occurred. If you have any unemployed friends with talent in the mechanical or electrical areas, they could be employed in about a half a day.

 

[Tomwine]

Yet another thing to keep me up at night! LOL

Tom,

I second this - it is one I think of often on my 35-2. There is one other more minor issue with this configuration. If the starboard seacock is closed and it rains hard, you will actually begin to fill the sink via the drain (even with the port seacock open, albeit slowly).

My congrats also. Great job on the fast work.

Brad[/QUOTE
I am going to figure out how to eliminate both of those big seacocks that are my biggest worry on the boat. They as you know are in the bottom of the boat and if they fail it is fatal.
I am going to find a way to connect the cockpit drains to an above waterline thru hulls maybe ones with a rubber flap to eliminate possible back flow in high seas. I don't use the sink much and would be happy to drain it into a bucket rather than having the sink be the possible cause of my boat sinking.
Thanks everyone for you ideas and help.
Tom

 

[toddster]

The grass is always greener...

It's good to hear from those living with such an installation, before I launch into doing one. But I am more nervous about having only a single cockpit drain in my E29. Personally, I'm pretty confident in the sink through-hull. The stiff drain tube is secured top and bottom - the only way I was able to remove and replace it was to remove the sink!

When I was shopping for boats, I was shown one that had its scupper through-hulls closed. The cockpit was full of rain water right up to the companionway sill. Every little shift would send a dollop of water into the cabin, to eventually be removed by the bilge pump. I wanted to find the through-hulls and open them, but the guy who was showing me the boat was afraid that would cause "something bad to happen." So we left it that way, and I didn't consider that boat any further. Maybe he was saving that water for his Friday night bath?

 

[Christian Williams]

One value of Bob's save is that we are reminded to check our boats.

Even though I was familiar with my own setup, it was useful to cast a jaundiced eye. On my model, the sink drain through-hull is actually hard to see, and I hadn't previously made the necessary gyrations and contortions.

My hoses appear to be replacements and are very stiff. I note that the hose clamps are new and tight--although the wrong size. Yet another look through the boat confirmed that all seacocks appear strong and normal, throw easily, and have unquestionable double clamps.

I have no problem with sink and cockpit drains combined. I am one of those who never closes a seacock. My theory is that worrying about whether the seacocks are closed means you don't trust the seacocks, which is unacceptable to me. Different strokes.

 

[supersailor]

Christian, The manufacturer recommends that your type of seacock be opened and closed at least once a month to guarantee that they don't freeze. A frozen seacock in an emergency could be a disaster very quickly. I couldn't believe how fast Terra Nova was filling! If they are open, you are relying on the hoses to keep the Pacific Ocean out and it behooves the owner to change them often. Also, the Ins Co is fairly insistent that closing them is prudent and leaving them open while off the boat is imprudent.

Now that I have met another Ericson owner that has had the same problem as me, I have became more allergic to open seacocks. His problem was storing a tool box in the sink compartment. It's the small forgetful things that can put her under. Worrying about hoses is legitimate. I trust the seacocks. Remember, the waterline is only a couple of inches below that T fitting under the sink. Any hose connection below the waterline should be looked at as suspect.

 

[Allen Jenneman]

Holy Cow..."You all" just made me go to the marina and check Infatuation...this week the boat 2 slips down sank and the marina crew pumped her out...do not know the cause ...she has an outboard so probably saved the boat. As bad as it is, at least Bob could save Terra Nova...I never closed this valve and now I am afraid to try...next haul out this all gets revisited and reworked as needed...This valve on my boat is very difficult to get to but I could rig up a special wrench to get to the valve and use as needed...yup..Murphy is alive and well and work'n as hard as ever.

All the best,
Al/ Infatuation

 

[supersailor]

I've been corresponding with Herb Friedman about some alternator problems he's been having on his E-34. He found out about this thread during the exchange. He sent me a copy of an article in the September Latitude 38 about the sinking of Flashgirl in Hawaii from a lightening strike while at the dock. Flashgirl is a Wylie 39 and was uninsured. The boat sank to the point mine did. At that point, it was beached and pumped out. Damages and recovery seem to be going along at the same track as mine. The actual cause of sinking given was the flex of the boat from the strike broke off the sink tailpiece and the boat went down. Once again, an open seacock. This sink drain is a weak spot in all boats and can open a large hole in the bottom of your boat. Close seacock?

I was going to post the article. We don't get Latitude 38 out here in the middle of nowhere so I was going to post Herb's copy but by the time I got it to the site, it was unreadable. Perhaps someone else could post a clearer copy?

Also, Herb noted that his drain looks exactly like mine did before the sinking. Please anyone who has not yet looked at his sink drain yet, look now. I don't want anyone else to suffer through what I have.

There is progress on my boat. The Insurance Co. approved my mitigation and electrical work so I am currently replacing a big chunk of the DC electrical systems. This was done because I could not get anyone out here to even give me an estimate to do enough work to get it to a Port Townsend yard. When I notified the Surveyor and the Adjuster that she was getting close to ready and supplied the list of unfinished work and the amount of things that would have to be unbuttoned to get to the other items to be replaced, the Surveyor stepped in and said that he didn't feel that it would now be economical to send the boat to Port Townsend and asked me if I would submit an Estimate for the complete job. Also, the Ins Co is going to waive almost all the depreciation. Based on the quality of work shown so far, he didn't feel the yard would do better work. I just submitted my full and final estimate so I guess I am now a marine contractor. I feel my work will be superior as I am redesigning all systems instead of replacing as is. There was a lot of Mickey Mouse work done on this boat. Most of it was done by professionals. At the same time, I am replacing all the hoses and other equipment that is obsolete. I can see why marine workers are so religious. I am getting callouses on my knees, not to mention lumps on the head! I am looking forward to a new/old Ericson 34.

Loren, thanks for the lead on the battery post fuse block. I'm going to use the two of them a little differently than you, but they solve that in line fuse problem. I only have eight more mystery wires to trace.

I'll post some pix of progress soon.

Happy Sailing!

 

[bgary]

Flashgirl

Blurb in "'lectronic latitude": http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2016-07-27#.V97rqmzruUk

Link to PDF of this month's issue: https://www.latitude38.com/eBooks/2016/L38201609.pdf

(article starts on page 64)

 

[supersailor]

Interesting, the 'letronic blurb is very different than the PDF version. Page 66 of the PDF says tailpiece was the problem and the electronic version says blew hole in hull. It appears I would go with the PDF version. This could also open up a whole can of worms about lightening strikes.

 

[bgary]

the 'letronic blurb is very different than the PDF

Could be all they knew when the 'lectronic blurb was written was that water came in through the vicinity of that thru-hull. They may not have known what failed until they got the water out.

"The details are sketchy, but it's our understanding that a lightning bolt struck Flashgirl’s mast and then went down to a thru-hull, blowing a hole in it. That caused water to pour in and the boat to "partially" sink."​

 

[toddster]

FWIW, my sink drain hose was a vertical piece of the heavy-walled black stuff. It was so stiff that it took a day of struggle to get it off to replace the through-hull. The only way to get it on or off was to uninstall the sink. (Or carve it into pieces.) Hose clamps or none, that thing would not come off. Even if the tailpiece was somehow broken, I'm not sure it has room to flop over. But if in doubt, a bit of wire could solve that problem. Or the pantry shelf that I'm gonna build in that cabinet, one of these days.

I did end up replacing it with the more conventional flexible white hose. The new sea-cock had a different angle so a bit more flex was needed. Maybe should re-think this...

 

[supersailor]

While ripping apart the electrical system I came across the perfect example of the lethal effects of electricity and salt water. This is a shot of the back of the battery switch that I use to shut off the juice to the windlass when I'm not using it. It resides next to the main battery switch and was about 22" under water. Pretty easy to tell which side has been hot.

 

[supersailor]

Much has changed since Terra Nova tried to sink. The first month was spent washing, scrubbing, and rewashing and rescrubbing all of the interior including behind normally not removed panels and inside the mast. Then began a frustrating month of attempting to get some estimates to get some work done so the boat could be taken under her own power from Port Angeles to Port Townsend where there are several boatyards that could do the work. Hours of calling professionals in the greater area resulted in one company showing up. They demanded five days at $75hr just to do an estimate. That's $3,000 just for the estimate, The representative was invited to take a flying leap off the stern. I finally proposed to the Surveyor and Ins Co that I submit an estimate to do at least the electrical work to get the engine reliable enough to safely make it to Port Townsend. This included doing most of the DC electrical, all the battery cables, a new alternator and starter, new batteries, new bilge pumps, and a few other things. The fact that I was once an electrician and General Contractor and have designed and built boats swayed them. With the electrical work nearly done, I gave a date to the Surveyor and Adjuster to take the boat to Port Townsend along with a list of the things that still needed to be done. I got a call from the surveyor that he now felt that it was not a good idea to send the yard judging by the good work shown in the photos sent to him and the amount of already done work that would have to be disturbed and redone. I was asked to submit a complete bid for all remaining work. The Ins Co has just sent me the check for all damages and I am the prime contractor for all the replacement of the damaged items.

For those who are interested in the havoc created by a little salt water bath, the list of items follows:

-Initial mitigation.
Wash down boat with garden hose. Restart engine. Replace oil, coolant, and tranny fluid multiple. times. Remove all interior panels and wash interior four more times. Ditto inside of mast. Wash, clean and dry everything including clothes, manuals and tools.

-DC electrical. Replace most of DC electrical system.

-Replace starter, alternator, electric fuel pump, sensors, glow plugs, etc.

-Re-spray engine. Replace shaft coupling.

-Replace shift, throttle, and shutoff cables.

-Replace smart fuel sender. Lift and clean bottom of fuel tank.

-Replace most of cabin sole. Refinish remainder.

-Replace Raritan Elegance Smart Head.

-Replace water Heater.

-Replace engine sound insulation.

-Replace cushions. 15 in total.

-Replace stove and oven.

-Relocate VHF antenna

-Check all mast wiring.

-Install new refer system.

Other than these things, there's not much to do. Soon, I will have a new/old 34-2. All that mickey Mouse work done on her earlier is disappearing fast. Also delayed maintenance is being done.