Windvane / autopilot question

[N.A.]

Hello folks:

First, this is a follow-on the Christian's extremely helpful thread,

E381 - A New Self-Steering Wind Vane, and Why

I recently ordered a new wind vane, this one from Cape Horn. The decision required a review of my own thinking about self-steering, its value, mission and practicality. The Sailomat 800 had served me well on two singlehanded Hawaii sails, and...

ericsonyachts.org

Rather than add to an older thread, I am starting a new one with that reference. Being a newbie, I am unsure if that is proper protocol; hopefully so.

I need to get either a windvane or a more serious autopilot -- I have the Raymarine EV100 wheel pilot, which is great for what I use it for but does not give the solid feeling I would want on a long passage or in adverse conditions. My local yard (whom I like a lot -- bay area place with the Swedish name) independently suggested pretty much what Christian also says in his blog -- that the costs are similar, a windvane is useful really only on passage, and for sailing on the (SF) bay or approaches a below-decks autopilot will be better in terms of ease of use.

I am torn; I mostly in fact sail only locally, and there aren't many places to go from here that aren't huge trips (Monterey could easily be done with a battery-powered autopilot without a lot of charging; after that it's a long way to the Channel Islands, etc., and going North is a serious slog I am told. And of course there's Hawaii, which I am attempting to equip for.) So for most things maybe I should consider a more robust belowdecks autopilot, or maybe even just a better wheel pilot. However, for Hawaii a windvane takes no power, can serve (e.g. Hydrovane) as an emergency rudder (that can take a tiller autopilot, btw, for steering in no wind if one doesn't have a wheel pilot). So I find myself wondering about getting one of those.

--> Curious if anyone here is inclined to talk me out of a windvane, or has extra suggestions. It's a lot of money either way, so I am trying to do my homework.

Many thanks for any advice!

PS: In case the below references are of use for anyone later:
- Windvanes: Aside from Monitor, Hydrovane is the one that gets a lot of mention in my limited circles. Seems to have few control lines, emergency rudder by default, easy to mount off the boat centerline... everything's supposedly great but the higher price ($7.5k plus installation so I hear).
- Word has it Pelagic tiller autopilots are very good; someone at the Singlehanded Sailing Society (a very helpful and friendly bunch as far as I can tell) pointed me to them recently, and I have heard about them a good bit on the bay. If I get a Hydrovane I might eventually get one to drive the tiller as a backup. https://pelagicautopilot.com
- If I didn't already have one, I might get a CPT wheel pilot (http://cptautopilot.com ; same SSS person pointed me to this). Seems more robust, and says it is quiet, neither of which describes my Raymarine EV100.

PS: boat is essentially an E34.

 

[Christian Williams]

Recall that I am sailing singlehanded. With a crew you don't really even need an autopilot anyhow. Make the mooks steer. Singlehanders are special needs sailors. But family sailors heading offshore are in the same category if the mooks are blood, or you expect them to enjoy it or not stand 4 on and 4 off in the rain.

An electric autopilot makes a lot of sense if you also plan to have lots of batteries, solar power, a 100 amp alternator, and maybe a wind generator too. It sounds like overkill but it's not--in the age of microwaves and watermakers and teen entertainment appliances. Such an autopilot is always available and makes for good resale value. Also, nothing hanging on the stern.

I seldom rig my wind vane except offshore. All its good points are seen offshore and for coastal sailing it is mostly an aesthetic thing, one more sail to trim, one more mechanical system to admire. But you need a wheel pilot anyhow, because wind vanes don't work when you can't sail more than 2 knots of boat speed--or when motoring.

It's apples and apples, as a choice. For family shorthanded sailing short of around the world an autopilot makes more sense. Or for a high wind and seas environment where a wheel pilot is overpowered in typical daysailing conditions. .

 

[Kalia]

Recall that I am sailing singlehanded. With a crew you don't really even need an autopilot anyhow. Make the mooks steer. Singlehanders are special needs sailors. But family sailors heading offshore are in the same category if the mooks are blood, or you expect them to enjoy it or not stand 4 on and 4 off in the rain.

An electric autopilot makes a lot of sense if you also plan to have lots of batteries, solar power, a 100 amp alternator, and maybe a wind generator too. It sounds like overkill but it's not--in the age of microwaves and watermakers and teen entertainment appliances. Such an autopilot is always available and makes for good resale value. Also, nothing hanging on the stern.

I seldom rig my wind vane except offshore. All its good points are seen offshore and for coastal sailing it is mostly an aesthetic thing, one more sail to trim, one more mechanical system to admire. But you need a wheel pilot anyhow, because wind vanes don't work when you can't sail more than 2 knots of boat speed.

It's apples and apples, as a choice. For family shorthanded sailing short of around the world an autopilot makes more sense. Or for a high wind and seas environment where a wheel pilot is overpowered in typical daysailing conditions. .

Lost in the discussion of windvanes vs. autopilots is the pure pleasure of sailing without electronic assistance. I sail Kalia singlehanded on San Francisco bay and its coastal waters with a Monitor windvane and a Raymarine wheel pilot. There are very few days where the windvane does not play its part steering the boat.

Case in point: yesterday rocking across the slot downwind of the Golden Gate Bridge approaching the shore, I needed to take a reef to keep the heel-o-meter from hitting 30% which is very inefficient upwind. Engage the Monitor at the helm; ease the mainsheet and main halyard while the boat steers itself on jib alone; adjust the reefing lines and a few minutes later same boat speed, but flatter and more comfortable. The Raymarine wheel pilot would have gladly volunteered to do the same work, but it’s more satisfying not to engage it. Balancing all the complex forces at play – hydraulic and aerodynamic – while remaining somewhat calm in the ever present chaos of sketchy visibility, currents, wind shifts and commercial traffic deserves a small celebration replaying the moment later in the day.

Second case in point: also yesterday on the windy reach from Treasure Island to Red Rock just downwind of Point Blunt on Angel Island where the wind from the gate bends around the island and accelerates on its way to Sacramento, lunch in the cockpit while the windvane drives. How cool using only the force of the wind and water to achieve a state of mind bordering on sublime.

Point and click navigation has its advantages, but sometimes old school offers benefits that can be had no other way.

 

[goldenstate]

What year is your "essentially E34"? The 34-2 (200 series) boats may not have room to attach a drive arm to the rudder post beneath the quadrant and above the fiberglass. This would complicate the installation of a below-decks ram. The 32-200 would require cutting glass to attach a drive arm.

Mechanical wind vanes are awesome. Steering is for racers and close maneuvering.

My Aries is silent and reliable. I agree with Kalia as to the benefits of a vane even on short day-jaunts in the SF bay. It makes reefing etc. much easier. The EV-100 is neither silent nor reliable, but is good for driving with the engine on.

I have also heard good things about the CPT wheel pilots and if I were to do it again, I might buy one instead of the EV-100.

There are many places to sail along the Northern California coast and speaking at least from my own experience, the more short-distance ocean work that you do, the better your experience will be on a long-distance passage.

The Mechanical Windvane Market

sailboatrefit.com

Aries Wind Vane: Fabricating transom backer plates with G10 and Epoxy

sailboatrefit.com

Aries Wind Vane: Hardware fitment

sailboatrefit.com

Aries Wind Vane: Rigging and Test Sail

sailboatrefit.com

 

[Martyn]

I was fortunate enough to buy my E-38 with both the Hydrovane and the CPT Autopilot in place. What an amazing experience its been learning to use these tools. I'm a novice and learning both systems still, but here are my observations so far:

Hydrovane: like all wind vanes, its just magic to see it working. I agree with Christian that its usefulness is really for long passages, although I love pulling it out for 4 hour Sunday cruises with my friends. We pick a tack and settle in for an afternoon of trimming sails and opining on life while marveling at the Hydrovane. Have yet to name it... Most of the time the rudder and vane are below deck tucked away.

What I most appreciate about the Hydrovane is the simplicity of the design and no need for any below deck installation. You trim the sails to reduce the weather helm as much as possible, lock the helm and let the vane take over. I love the peace of mind in having an emergency second tiller as well.

CPT Autopilot: I had trouble when I first took ownership of the boat. I would engage it and it would pull to port off course and on my shakedown cruise we couldn't use it. 5 days at the helm with a lot of motoring, but I wouldn't have traded that either as the experience was critical to getting to know the boat. I contacted CPT and their service and response rate is impeccable. I had to re-calibrate the system and reset the northerly orientation.

That fixed the issue and now it works like a charm. What I most appreciate about the CPT is also the ease of installation and relative simplicity of it. If you can run power to your helm, you can install the CPT right there and thats just it. Watching it work in 12-15 knots with a roll-ey sea state is a pleasure. I'm still learning to adjust it properly for tacking.

In conclusion, using both these tools opens up a world of opportunities for me and I can finally see how I might start venturing out on a few single handed missions.

 

[peaman]

I was fortunate enough to buy my E-38 with both the Hydrovane....

Lucky you! Having reviewed all of the available wind vane designs available, I aspire to having a Hydrovane before too long. The simplicity of it, compared to the most common designs is really appealing to me.

 

[Kalia]

Neil (member N.A.) and I went out on SF Bay to demo Kalia's Monitor wind vane yesterday. Blustery 15 – 20 knot winds typical of August in this part of the world. Upon initially deploying the Monitor paddle just outside of the Richardson Bay channel, a coupling between the air vane and the shaft separated. This has never happened to me in 20 plus years of sailing with the Monitor. I think it was because we deployed the paddle without centering the vane and the sideways force of heeling put abnormal pressure on the vane shaft.

Neil and I motored back to the slip and diagnosed the problem: a snap ring clip had come loose detaching the shaft from the coupling. Miraculously, the snap ring (very, very small C clip) which fits in a narrow groove on top of the shaft was stuck snuggly in the coupling. Even more miraculously, I had a spare C clip in my spare parts bag. It would have been nice to have the right tool for the job: a snap wring pliers just right for enlarging the C clip so it fit over the shaft and into the slot. However, we discovered that two men, four hands, a screwdriver, needle nose pliers and a hole punch working together did the job. Unfortunately, I placed one of the cylindrical parts we removed to make the repair on top of one of my solar panels. When it rolled off the flat surface and plopped neatly into the water, Neil said “What was that?”

Third miraculous event: I had a spare part for the one that went overboard. We finished the repair and polished off 22 nautical miles on the bay – Monitor demo complete. Lessons reinforced: always have spare parts; keep the manuals handy; don’t put stuff that you may need later on flat surfaces where the wind may teach you another lesson.

 

[N.A.]

@Kalia is too modest: there was nothing miraculous about the spares – that was careful preparation. The ability to repair the Monitor was quite an expert lesson in what is necessary for safe cruising: the well-stocked spares kit: spares plus spares for the spare that rolls overboard; printed manual, and sufficient tools to make it all work, all of which he could find and break out in less time than it takes me to get under the settee cushions on my boat… plus a surfeit of calm and composure to keep it mellow even when the crucial item rolls overboard while the newbie does not have his eye on it, followed by the grace not to blame him. The extra clip tool that would have been handy qualifies from the teaching standpoint as a feature not a bug –underscored the importance of substantial preparation, both having all the tools, and if not all then enough that you can make do. Christian’s videos show him repairing stuff all the time, but running into it in person naturally has an especially dramatic impact.

In any case, the raft of advice, and lessons – intended and inadvertent – was incredibly helpful and appreciated. Thanks again!

Re: the windvane discussion, just in case anyone runs across this thread in the future:

Rudder lifting: Kalia and my local boatyard folks have both mentioned the distinction between the Monitor’s rudder, which lifts incredibly easily, and the Hydrovane’s which is apparently difficult to take off unless you back into a slip (and probably get a bit wet). For those of us in parts of the bay where the plants grow fast on the hull, that ability to lift the rudder when not using it seems very helpful. Further, maneuver under power with the rudder down is apparently pretty tricky. Not an issue with Monitor, which you can lift before coming in, but with Hydrovane maneuver in the marina is apparently harder unless one is also steering that with one’s other hand.

Rudder attachment robustness: It appeared that the Monitor is purposefully designed with parts that fail prior to real damage – possibly including running aground/fouling the rudder, where it seems like it perhaps would shear a pin and rise before major damage (experts could confirm if this is true; unsure if I remember all Kalia said). The Hydrovane, at least by appearance, looks like it would not break short of major parts failure, potentially a plus or a minus depending on circumstances.

Maintenance of heading: upwind in 15-20 kts, with substantial gusts, the Monitor maintained heading within about a 10-degree arc (+/- 5 or so). Downwind (board/deep broad, with ~ 2 foot wind waves) the Monitor held more like a 20-25 degree arc (+/- half that), maybe even greater swings. My assumption is that this would be true of Hydrovane too; my EV100 wheel pilot does little better in swells, but otherwise can hold a tighter course. I assume some of the more powerful belowdecks system may do better even in swells. The changing heading seemed to require extra attention (compared to a wheel pilot) when in a crossing / approach situation with another craft.

Ease of use: I was pretty impressed; I can see why Goldenstate and Kalia both use them a lot on the bay. And so much quieter than the EV100. I wouldn't tend to use it in tight quarters / a crowded area, but for zipping around the bay it worked great.

Reefing: The Monitor seemed to handle the sailplan unbalance during the reef fine, but an additional (unrelated) comment is merited: Kalia has their boat rigged with slab reefing with two lines for each reef (both tack and clew) run back to the cockpit. I knew this could be done, but I have slab reefing with just clew lines run back; on my boat I go to the mast to deal with the tacks. I had failed to understand how dramatic the difference is when once can just stay in the cockpit -- it was awesome. Kalia reefed singlehanded while the Monitor steered, even starting from being overpowered, and the process was just remarkably calm, easing out the halyard while bringing in in the new reef tack at the same pace. Some of that is undoubtedly Kaila’s style, but compared to having to go forward as the boat plunges, and wrestle the reefing dog-bone ring over the gooseneck horn, and then get it all winched in… suffice it to say that first thing next weekend I am running a second set of lines back to let me reef fully from the cockpit.

Maintenance: I managed to trip over the Monitor lines to the wheel repeatedly; Kalia never did. Hydrovane has no such lines. The vane adjustment lines can jump off the little drum on the vane shaft – easy to put back on, but... The system fails without breaking critical parts, but it is also hard to imagine reassembling that clip system with fiddly tiny parts without being at the dock. Further, Kalia was kind in giving me an opportunity to “help”, but it actually did appear to take two sets of hands to get it back together. However it did go back together, and in pretty short order, and then worked great.

Long story short, I’ll be getting a Monitor or Hydrovane, leaning a bit toward the latter (mainly due to the fewer lines into the cockpit; the monitor hardware failure was not that offputting.) Feel like a windvane will work well for me.

Thanks again to all for the advice, and especially to Kalia for the time and effort to take me out and show me the system in action!

 

[Loren Beach]

SAILOMAT

I wonder if Christian might have comments about this vane? I believe that he has offshore experience with one.

 

[Christian Williams]

My favorite of them all (because it goes on and off the transom in 20 minutes). But Sailomat is out of business and recent models rarely appear for sale.

All the rest are fine, it just depends which one appeals. And if you really, really need a pendulum wind vane instead of a powerful belowdeck autopilot.

There's also the Cape Horn. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/cape-horn-wind-vane-installation-2021.904/

 

[N.A.]

Sailomat still has a website up?

SAILOMAT

Video showing it, by Christian: https://player.vimeo.com/video/106358324

I see posts by some folks claiming the servo pendulum to the main rudder is superior (in terms of damping of oscillation downwind?) to the Hydrovane system with its auxiliary rudder. Sailomat and Aries would (I think) seem to fit in the servo pendulum to main rudder category. Windpilot Pacific Plus (n.b.: their website has some... odd image choices.) seems to perhaps fit in the Hydrovane category (with similar pricing).

The comment in question (from https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/poll-best-windvane-self-steering-system.337924/page-2) is:
"After 20,000 miles my views are: The basic problem is that getting the wind alone to turn an auxiliary rudder means it isn't very powerful. It's especially poor in a quartering sea, as the rudder doesn't have the strength to keep her running straight. Forget setting a spinnaker."
They prefer the Monitor; they had also apparently had a bad interaction with Hydrovane. Still, I feel like I may have seen echoes of this complaint (to the extent it is essentially the same as "damping") elsewhere.

I like the idea of the auxiliary rudder due to the lack of lines to the wheel (and my wheel turns a lot more easily than Kalia's, despite it being essentially the same boat. Multiple possible reasons (he has cable steering, I have rack & pinion; my wheel is larger; he has monitor lines running onto the wheel.) Seems possible that in addition to clutter/trip hazard/one more thing to foul or break, the lines also add wheel friction.

But if the Monitor/Aries/Sailomat system works better downwind, that would matter to me.

Curious about any thoughts people have on this.

 

[Christian Williams]

It's especially poor in a quartering sea, as the rudder doesn't have the strength to keep her running straight.

Yeah, well, no vane can handle that and run straight. That's because the boat rolls in a quartering sea when you sail a course diagonal to the wave train. It's the hull form that is altering the course with each wave, and the vane can't anticipate that (or anything else), and so correction is continuous and the track is not straight.

Having been through it, I don't think you can think your way through a comparison of vane types. In the end it's a shrug. They all work, sort of, more or less.

And they all take a lot of fiddling with and sail plan alteration and awkwardness is built in. When somebody says he never touched the helm in 10,000 miles, that's pretty true. But he paid as much attention to the vane as to the sails, or another crew member. All discussions should also consider electric alternatives.

 

[Guy Stevens]

Little late to this party,
However I have sailed with most of the wind vanes mentioned here, and a few that are not. ( Cape Horn, Monitor, Aries, Sayes Rig, Autohelm, sailomat, Hydrovane, come to mind).
By far and away my favorite is the Cape Horn made in CANADA, not France.
We have installed them and helped maintain them on more boats that I can count.
Personally I have something like 15K miles on the current Cape Horn, on Aiki. Possibly more sea miles than that.

 

[Kalia]

In the 2022 edition of the Golden Globe singlehanded around the world race, French professional sailor Damien Guillou experienced three separate failures of his Hydrovane on the leg from France to South Africa. This link contains a detailed explanation of what went wrong the first two times.

Golden Globe Race windvane safety and GGR 2026 open for entries

The Race Returns · Sailing like it's 1968

goldengloberace.com

Short version: the bolts holding the vane to the transom failed in the first instance. After returning to port for the repair, the rudder stock holding the vane rudder sheared off due to a modification made to the vane by the skipper's team prior to departing.

The third failure deep in the South Atlantic involved the loss of backup windvane rudder when two bolts holding the rudder to the stock failed and the safety retrieval line which is supposed to hold the rudder to the boat also failed. Damien's team had modified the backup rudder stock by enlarging a hole which accepts a pin which captures the rudder and replacing the stainless steel pin with threaded bolts.

Damien retired from the race in Cape Town as a result. In fairness, Hydrovanes have been used successfully by many entrants to the Golden Globe race including the winner of the 2018 edition of the race. The lesson here may be to use caution in modifying essential gear without consulting the manufacturer.

 

[Pete the Cat]

You have received a lot of good advice here on the windvanes. A couple things about autopilots: There is no comparison of the joy and quiet between wheel pilot and a below deck autopilot. The latter is a joy--especially the Autohelm unit with the electric clutch that disengages instantly and lets the wheel be free of the noise and residual clatter of the wheel pilots. I have this arrangement on my Tartan 37 and it is a joy to click the button and go about your business. I would also advise you to put the control head of whatever autopilot you have on the instrument cluster on the binnacle. Putting the control head where you have to lean down to engage and disengage it is tiresome and could be dangerous IMHO. I only have a wheel pilot on my Ericson and it is just OK--nothing I would want to take on much more than some short coastal cruises--which is all I do any more with that boat. I sailed my Tartan 37 from SF to Maine via Panama and never really saw much opportunity for a windvane on that trip as it really did not use that much amperage. I carry an old belt wheel pilot as a backup on passages because I am a single hander. This could be another argument for a wind vane offshore as autopilots do fail.

 

[N.A.]

The comments and advice here continue to be much appreciated; thank you all!

I am in the process of installing a Hydrovane. Reasoning boiled down to 1) the fact that my wheel nut tends to slowly come loose, and all mechanically permanent fixes to that (e.g. drilling and putting a pin into a no-longer-manufactuered system) are involved. I plan on some blue locktite, weak enough to make emergency wheel removal tractable if necessary. However, this issue made me less enthusiastic about a self-steering system that depends on... the wheel mounting. Also, 2) the Monitor, which I liked (thanks again for letting me see it in action, Kalia!) also seemed tricky to fix alone or at sea, and so the designed-to-fail / sacrificial parts that prevent damage when misused (n.b.: that was me...) had both an up-side and a down-side. If I was planning to spend more time in shallow water, though, or had an Edson wheel/pedestal I could work on more easily, I would have leaned more toward the Monitor. Of course, if the Hydrovane mounting breaks, I would obviously be really stuck... I will carefully watch the video @Kalia posted and not make any modifications to the factory system. [PS: I wish I had a better electric autopilot (have Raymarine wheel pilot; may move to a Pelagic wheel pilot sometime if it needs replacing), but decided on a windvane becase a) quiet was so nice (!) , b) belowdecks installation on my boat looked pretty involved, and and repair underway even harder due to the constrained space, and c) my experience with marine diesels over the years left me undesirous of depending on battery charging for my autopilot needs.]

I'll post any useful or relevant observations after I have it installed and get used to using it. Thanks again to all; boat set-up for newbies like me is not simple, and the assistance from folks on this board makes it easier and more pleasant in every way.

 

[southofvictor]

I was fortunate enough to buy my E-38 with both the Hydrovane and the CPT Autopilot in place. What an amazing experience its been learning to use these tools. I'm a novice and learning both systems still, but here are my observations so far:

@Martyn do you have the single E bracket or dual A bracket for your Hydrovane upper bracket? I’m considering a Hydrovane and it looks like there are E-38s with both. Would love to go simpler with the single E bracket if it gives sufficient strength (which Hydrovane says it does). Curious what owners with them installed and in use have found.

 

[Martyn]

@Martyn do you have the single E bracket or dual A bracket for your Hydrovane upper bracket? I’m considering a Hydrovane and it looks like there are E-38s with both. Would love to go simpler with the single E bracket if it gives sufficient strength (which Hydrovane says it does). Curious what owners with them installed and in use have

After consulting with Hydrovane about my installation they noted it was a patchwork of parts and said it wasn’t safe. They recommended:

The most correct path forward is to replace the top bracket with a completely new ‘E’ Bracket. I have quoted this option below; as you have an E bracket pad, you could reuse the pads and backing plate for your current top bracket with differently spaced holes. If finances are a major concern, you could replace only the Shaft Clamp section, but you will still have a less robust transom attachment and thinner Stay Tube that we do not recommend using as the only second bracket. I’m happy to discuss options further.

Prices in USD:

$689 – E Bracket Assembly
So it seems your E bracket idea would work. I’d recommend you call or email them as they are super helpful and responsive and will dial you in.

 

[N.A.]

Hydrovane update:

- I was quoted for the "E" bracket for my E34, but the boatyard (whom I trust) decided it would be better to do an upper "A" bracket.

- I find getting the rudder on/off actually pretty easy at the dock, even bow-in (so I am hanging off the back on the swim step). It is much less of a pain than I had expected.

- It seems pretty easy to use, and works well so far... still learning to use it well, but got it working decently in about 30 seconds on the first time out. Trickier in heavier air, perhaps because I am less good at having the boat balanced (tend to carry too much sail out of laziness).

- *** One thing I had not understood or expected is how different it is sailing with a windvane -- with the autohelm, I would pretty steadily be moving around, adjusting heading or sails as the wind changed direction (as it does a lot with location in the bay), etc. Not only is the vane blissfully quieter, but... since it keeps a constant angle to the wind, there seems to be much less work required. I suddenly have so much less to do that I barely know what to do with myself. It is a very different kind of sailing.

- Balancing the sail plan matters a lot for having the vane work right; using it is forcing me to up my game re: trim. Still, not complicated to do, and everything is the better for it.

- I need to add a better way to secure the wheel (wheel lock not very strong, and slips if there is much weather helm, which is a problem for using the vane). I know, with proper trim... But I don't always feel like reefing when I know I will be turning downwind before long, or expect it to drop again in a half hour, so weather helm happens.

Quite satisfied so far.

 

[Christian Williams]

Bravo!

If not bothering to reef, I just let the main luff a little. With full battens it's hardly noticeable.