It was an expensive weekend...[Jib Shredded]

[K2MSmith]

I shredded my jib . Short version of the story: sailing single-hand in conditions a bit over my head in a unfamiliar boat . The new reefing lines on the main work great though .
Can anyone recommendations what type of sail I should get ? I probably should lean towards something not easily destroyed.
I do have 120 Genoa in good shape but not sure it would be good to sail it furled ( reefed )

 

[Loren Beach]

Lots of variables to assess. Average winds, how your boat's sail plan is divided between main and jib, budget - composite or dacron sail, national loft or small local one.

I have been sailing short handed and often single handed for decades, and boiled down my headsail options to the present 97% full hoist with three vertical battens. Our sail plan is approx 50-50 between fore triangle and main sail, and that makes a difference. Your boat has a large % of its sail plan in the main, and my guess is that a similar jib would work well for you, but I am not a sail designer. My friend here that was racing his E-33RH, did downsize to about a 128 or so (after consulting a sailmaker about staying under a certain point for calculating his rating), and liked the result a lot.

The denizens of this site had a great past discussion about jib overlap with the emphasis on going with one of the newer self-tacking setups. Actually, if ever re-thinking our boat's foretriangle, I would install the self-tacking car & curved track. Several boats at our club have done so. Geography is a factor, too -- we sail in a windward-leeward venue on a river. Every degree we gain in pointing and speed and ease of tacking are important.

Thread link: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/self-tacking-jibs-anyone.1729/page-2#post-108297
(and link to other related thread, within)

And this is just one partial answer or solution.
Link to our picture: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/o-34-close-hulled.19173/

Opinions worth two cents, and currently no change is available; credit cards accepted with additional fee.

 

[Christian Williams]

For what it's worth, many of us have found smaller Genoas persuasive. A 150 overlap being a big genny, a 120 "smaller," a 130 "medium". And there are huge benefits to a non-overlapping jib--tacking is fast, no drama of lines and sailcoth scraping and wearing. When I had a 90 percent jib on the 32-3 it was my favorite sail, the boat felt like a dinghy.

Since it's a pain to change roller furling headsails, many of us use only one. So compromise is necessary. So is a foam luff and a cloth weight that can take being deployed 50 percent in 30 knots.

At least consider a high-clew design, rather than a deck sweeper. Visibility is superb. Sheeting angle much more forgiving. True, not as racy.

I think big Genoas have less appeal now that asymetrical spinnakers abound, and when reaching they do a better job than a Genoa anyhow.

Very little of the above applies to the needs of racing.

 

[K2MSmith]

					For what it's worth, many of us have found smaller Genoas persuasive. A 150 overlap being a big genny, a 120 "smaller," a 130 "medium". And there are huge benefits to a non-overlapping jib--tacking is fast, no drama of lines and sailcoth scraping and wearing. When I had a 90 percent jib on the 32-3 it was my favorite sail, the boat felt like a dinghy. Since it's a pain to change roller furling headsails, many of us use only one. So compromise is necessary. So is a foam luff and a cloth weight that can take being deployed 50 percent in 30 knots. At least consider a high-clew design, rather than a deck sweeper. Visibility is superb. Sheeting angle much more forgiving. True, not as racy. I think big Genoas have less appeal now that asymetrical spinnakers abound, and when reaching they do a better job than a Genoa anyhow. Very little of the above applies to the needs of racing. The sail I destroyed was a 100 jib. I let it flutter too much in the windiest part of the bay near the Golden gate while I attempted to clear tangled lines . Funny it was only maybe 2 minutes but it was enough to do the damage . I believe the sails on the boat ( Carbon tape ) are 7-10 years old . So I think they were end of life anyway . In either case , I can’t replace with a sail that is not forgiving of a mistake . Need something more robust . I’m thinking of going with Dacron. Something a little more bulletproof and not as expensive. i have another carbon 120% Genoa in good condition that has not been used as much . I’m wondering until I figure out ( and can afford )a new jib if the 120 Genoa can be used in a semi-furled position to replace my destroyed 100 jib ? I would have to be able to use it at 50-75% so that I can sail in the 25 mph gusts we have here in the bay .

 

[CSMcKillip]

We have a 120 on the furler but I do have a 100 and a 150 that are really never used somewhere in my attic. The 120 is a very balanced sail for us in our area. You will be kicking yourself on the lighter air days.

 

[goldenstate]

Kevin -

My boat came with what I was told is a 90% jib. I haven't laid it out on a nice grassy field to take exact measurements and compare. I find the area more than plenty for the bay on summer days when the main sail is up at all. Mostly I have it furled some of the way. It's the most laborious part of tacking etc. It's pretty new, stiff white Dacron, not any fancy carbon or the yellow-ey composite. Most people on this list have a lot less wind than we do. I can't remember if you have a functional auto-pilot set up for your tiller yet, but if not, you've got a lot of variables to try to manage solo. You don't really need a big jib to wrestle with.

As for replacements:

I have had people repeatedly recommend Minney's sail for used sails.

My boat's (fairly savvy) PO bought his sails from Lee Sails and they manufacture in Hong Kong. It took me a while, but I got in touch with the right people and got this message when I enquired about having my slides modified for my in-process Tides Marine Sailtrack upgrade:

"Hi Tom.

Lee Sails loft is located in Hong Kong. So we do not provide conversions services. Best to contact a local sail loft near to boat location. They should be able to help. If you require further assistance please contact Alan, our California agent. 9165415315. Lee Sails is still operating. Helen & William retired last year. Their son Henry is now the owner. They have expanded the product line and yes, we can make any sail.

Best regards.

Kevin Smylski _/)
Cowichan Bay, BC
778 422-3332
www.leesailsdirect.com www.leesails.com
Sailmakers to the world since 1947!
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Lee-Sails-139494592767699/ https://m.facebook.com/LeeSailsNorthAmerica/

I think you save money buying from Lee Sails, but may have to wait a bit to get your product and they won't do follow on work.

Anyone who doubts the quality of the custom-sewn products that come out of HK hasn't ordered a suit from my guy in Central Hong Kong. Brooks Brothers prices for Savile Row bespoke product. I'm not sure if Lee Sails always falls in that "sewn-excellence" category, but I like my sails, and I haven't blown them out yet.


YMMV,

Tom

 

[K2MSmith]

Kevin -

My boat came with what I was told is a 90% jib. I haven't laid it out on a nice grassy field to take exact measurements and compare. I find the area more than plenty for the bay on summer days when the main sail is up at all. Mostly I have it furled some of the way. It's the most laborious part of tacking etc. It's pretty new, stiff white Dacron, not any fancy carbon or the yellow-ey composite. Most people on this list have a lot less wind than we do. I can't remember if you have a functional auto-pilot set up for your tiller yet, but if not, you've got a lot of variables to try to manage solo. You don't really need a big jib to wrestle with.

As for replacements:

I have had people repeatedly recommend Minney's sail for used sails.

My boat's (fairly savvy) PO bought his sails from Lee Sails and they manufacture in Hong Kong. It took me a while, but I got in touch with the right people and got this message when I enquired about having my slides modified for my in-process Tides Marine Sailtrack upgrade:

"Hi Tom.

Lee Sails loft is located in Hong Kong. So we do not provide conversions services. Best to contact a local sail loft near to boat location. They should be able to help. If you require further assistance please contact Alan, our California agent. 9165415315. Lee Sails is still operating. Helen & William retired last year. Their son Henry is now the owner. They have expanded the product line and yes, we can make any sail.

Best regards.

Kevin Smylski _/)
Cowichan Bay, BC
778 422-3332
www.leesailsdirect.com www.leesails.com
Sailmakers to the world since 1947!
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Lee-Sails-139494592767699/ https://m.facebook.com/LeeSailsNorthAmerica/

I think you save money buying from Lee Sails, but may have to wait a bit to get your product and they won't do follow on work.

Anyone who doubts the quality of the custom-sewn products that come out of HK hasn't ordered a suit from my guy in Central Hong Kong. Brooks Brothers prices for Savile Row bespoke product. I'm not sure if Lee Sails always falls in that "sewn-excellence" category, but I like my sails, and I haven't blown them out yet.


YMMV,

Tom

Thanks for the Lee sails reference. I’ll check them out . The jib i damaged was a 100 % . I I had the jib furled to about 75% of sail area . I had just installed 2nd reef in the main. I was still way overpowered. The wind was showing 19-20 with gusts to 26-28 ( I think That’s apparent ) . I would have thought I would have been fine with this configuration, but the port rail was in the water and I had to blow the main sheet every so often to get control back . I do have a simrad tiller pilot which worked great on a broad reach in the way back , but couldn’t hold course to windward overpowered . My next step was to furl the jib in more , but that proved impossible, so I tried to head the boat into the wind to relieve pressure , but that’s when the sail flapping unknowingly did a lot of damage which I noticed on the trailing edge after furling . Think my mistake was that I should have started with the jib at 50% ( if you don’t include my original mistake of trying to sail to San Francisco , which I made about 3/4 of the way
My original question about the 120 Genoa . I have one ( as a second sail ) . I thought I would just use it in the interim while I’m deciding about replacing the 100 , but I would likely have to sail it 50% furled most of the time. Wondering if this would work ?

 

[Geoff W.]

I have a 135% genoa for our light air Puget Sound and that does nicely, and furls decently for when I need it smaller. It's a heavier cruising laminate and feels like strong material.

If I was in the Bay and looking for an all-arounder I'd probably get the 100-100% range and expect to furl it on occasion. That's for my 32-3, which is jib driven -- if Loren's post above is true and your boat is largely main driven, I'd go less than 100% as the jib is less for driving and more for pointing ability.

One trick for furling in a blow I only recently learned: don't head into the wind to try to furl it, instead bear off to a deep reach and let the jib blow forward in front of the boat. I've found even in heavy wind there's almost no pressure on the furler. Just watch for any auto-gybing.

 

[K2MSmith]

Does you 135 behave ok in a blow when furled to half it’s area ? The downwind tip is good one . Will try it next time . The main also would block some of those he wind on the jib ..

 

[Christian Williams]

By the way, if your jib blew up after a few moments flogging, it was shot anyhow. The stitching is first to go, victim of UV and age. My point is you made no error.

Dacron, as any sail maker will tell us, remains the longest-lived sail cloth. It doesn't have the racy qualities of very low stretch and light weight, but it remains the product of choice for longevity and all-around utility for the price.

Personally I like to throw my work to a local sales rep, who will come to the boat, take measurements, install the sails, and take an interest in your personal saga over the years. Although I know everything, and have since birth, I have gotten a lot of advice from local sail reps that actually corrected certain long-held opinions. To my surprise, sail maker reps are quite savvy, known more about sails than I do, and although used to coddling race nuts are capable of giving good advice to the rest of us if we ask and are willing to listen.

Sails that get heavy use require periodic maintenance--or an owner with a sewing machine. The stitching lies atop new miracle fabrics and is first to fail. It can;t bury, as it could in cotton. It is subject to abrasion and UV. We would all like to have a car mechanic who knew us, and the car. (Well, at least that was true when people kept cars more than three years). Such a relationship with a sail maker is still possible, if it suits your current needs. And it is good to have somebody to talk to when the time for new sails comes.

 

[K2MSmith]

Does you 135 behave ok in a blow when furled to half it’s area ? The downwind tip is good one . Will try it next time . The main also would block some of those he wind on the jib ..

By the way, if your jib blew up after a few moments flogging, it was shot anyhow. The stitching is first to go, victim of UV and age. My point is you made no error.

Dacron, as any sail maker will tell us, remains the longest-lived sail cloth. It doesn't have the racy qualities of very low stretch and light weight, but it remains the product of choice for longevity and all-around utility for the price.

Personally I like to throw my work to a local sales rep, who will come to the boat, take measurements, install the sails, and take an interest in your personal saga over the years. Although I know everything, and have since birth, I have gotten a lot of advice from local sail reps that actually corrected certain long-held opinions. To my surprise, sail maker reps are quite savvy, known more about sails than I do, and although used to coddling race nuts are capable of giving good advice to the rest of us if we ask and are willing to listen.

Sails that get heavy use require periodic maintenance--or an owner with a sewing machine. The stitching lies atop new miracle fabrics and is first to fail. It can;t bury, as it could in cotton. It is subject to abrasion and UV. We would all like to have a car mechanic who knew us, and the car. (Well, at least that was true when people kept cars more than three years). Such a relationship with a sail maker is still possible, if it suits your current needs. And it is good to have somebody to talk to when the time for new sails comes.

I like the idea of working with a "real person" locally. The local sail maker is very knowledgeable, helped me with the tides system install and is currently making a new sailcover for me. He's the first guy I plan to call. Hopefully if I end up getting a new main at some point, the tides cars can be transferred (or at least in part, depending on batons etc. )- but that's a different problem. Jib first.
Yes, I think you're right about the sail being shot. The place were it tore was along the "trailing edge" that holds the cord for the leach tension. The cord is now outside of the sail. (sorry, I didn't take a picture yesterday). that is an area that is always exposed to UV even when the sail is rolled up on the furler.

Did I say I drive a 30 year old car that drives like new ? (but yes, I'm the minority these days)

 

[Slick470]

If you already have a good relationship with a sail maker, ask if you can bring by your existing sails to spread out on the loft floor and talk about them. Bring a note pad, take lots of notes. You can get a good sense of age, condition, and best usage that way. After we bought our boat I brought a pickup truck bed worth of sails to my sailmaker and we spent an hour or so digging through them all. Afterward I had a much better sense of what was what and what sail would be my most likely next purchase. A very helpful exercise, especially with an older boat that came with something like 12 sails.

 

[gadangit]

We have cruising weight laminate tri-radial cut sails. They are designed with heavier cloth along the load paths and lighter cloth everywhere else. You have to look close to see that they are not Dacron. We have 6 years of hard racing, 6000nm, most offshore and the shape is the same as when we got them. At least as far as I can tell.

The cost was only marginally more than Dacron. All made in the local loft with full lifetime support by our sailmaker who makes us better sailors every time we go out.

Chris

 

[frick]

I have been using my trusty old 130 Genny for years. It does roll up with the profurler well. I need to replace ... Maybe next year. My new Main was replace a while back with a Doyle Dacron and I very happy with it.

 

[Geoff W.]

Does you 135 behave ok in a blow when furled to half it’s area ? The downwind tip is good one . Will try it next time . The main also would block some of those he wind on the jib ..

It does behave quite well. The resulting control gained back over the boat is almost amusing when you compare how the boat feels post-reef to how it felt pre-reef, and I sheepishly wonder why it took me so long to admit I needed to shorten sails.

 

[G Kiba]

In the Bay Area, If you want a new sail to finish out the season. SailWarehouse. Reasonable quality for the price and really fast if they have a sail that would work in stock. Measure your old sail, give them a call. Then you can sail and order a new sail from whomever you choose. BTW a sailmaker recently told me that sailmakers are the biggest flakes when they are busy. They won't even return you calls or emails for a quotation. Second biggest are Marine Canvas folks. Turns out he does both! He was busy after this conversation and didn't respond to my quote! I feel better knowing it's not just me.

The Sailwarehouse

sails warehouse

thesailwarehouse.com

 

[K2MSmith]

We have cruising weight laminate tri-radial cut sails. They are designed with heavier cloth along the load paths and lighter cloth everywhere else. You have to look close to see that they are not Dacron. We have 6 years of hard racing, 6000nm, most offshore and the shape is the same as when we got them. At least as far as I can tell.

The cost was only marginally more than Dacron. All made in the local loft with full lifetime support by our sailmaker who makes us better sailors every time we go out.

Chris

I have since learned my sails are at least 10 years old - shot !

I just got an online quote from North for both their Dacron and tri-radial, including a UV cover (I am assuming the 100% is probably going to be my standard working headsail so it will be left on the furler). About 2K and 2.7K respectively. Sail area is 23.77 sqM. I was pretty impressed that their numbers came up very close to what is listed on sailboatdata for the E-33. Maybe their computer program accepts sail area and works backwards. I have not talked to them about lead times but asked them for a quote on my main while they are at it.

To compare, I plan on talking to the local sail maker later this week as an alternative..

Grant, I checked the Sailwarehouse. That looks like a good option as well although in their search, they don't show an Ericson 33. The Ron Holland Ericsons are kind of rare (only 21 33's made) and it's a fractional, so maybe that's why, but maybe it would be possible to find a sail from another boat with similar numbers.

In the meantime, I am going to the boat tomorrow to roll out the 130% genoa to see what is looks like. Presumably it has not been used as much and might work for me in the interim . The quote with North prompted me to think about whether or not it has a UV cover on it (?). I'll take some pictures of the torn jib and post for posterity.

 

[Loren Beach]

To reiterate again, as they say, if you choose a smaller overlap jib, like my 97%, Be Sure to get the three vertical battens for the luff. Unlike most jibs of this % measurement, ours has more area in the upper half, more like maybe a 110. This is a different cut of sail than a normal 'blade' jib. Note also that our jib is full hoist.

 

[K2MSmith]

To reiterate again, as they say, if you choose a smaller overlap jib, like my 97%, Be Sure to get the three vertical battens for the luff. Unlike most jibs of this % measurement, ours has more area in the upper half, more like maybe a 110. This is a different cut of sail than a normal 'blade' jib. Note also that our jib is full hoist.

Wow Loren, you are reading my mind. I was just talking online with the sailmaker and he asked me about battens for the jib and I recalled your original post and told him I would get back to him.
So if you can educate me a bit. I think I mistakenly said my original jib was a 100, but it is actually a 110. So given that I have sailed it partially furled everytime I have sailed it, I am thinking I need no more than a 100% for this area. (keep in mind, I also have the 120% genoa).

So if I get battens, do I have to get a "full hoist" sail, What does that mean ? My sail is on a furler, but the jib halyard tension is adjustable. I will be taking the jib off the furler tomorrow so I will be able to see a bit more closely how it is rigged....

PS...edited found this shot of a jib with vertical battens. Is this the type ?

btw, we had a self-tacking jib on the beneteau 38.1 club boat and I really liked it. I found that I sailed out of newport harbor single-handing handed by tacking almost 90% of the time and I never did that with the previous boat (non-self tacking), it was just hard work to tack solo every 200 yards, but very easy with the self-tacking jib.

did you choose the 97% with that in mind as a possible upgrade (to clear the mast) ?

 

[Loren Beach]

"Full hoist" is shorthand for a jib that goes to the top of the forestay. Sometimes a jib is cut for heavy air, and does not go all the way to the top; this lowers the center of effort to reduce heeling.
I recall the designation of a 'blade' jib as being less than 100%, and being hoist all the way up the stay.
The nicely-detailed picture you posted is indeed the type I was referring to.
The link I posted in reply 2, shows our jib sailing close hulled. The light across the said makes the three battens a bit hard to see, admittedly.
I agree with Christian's comment in reply 3, about how the sails (and tacks) much more like a dinghy with the small-overlap jib.