It was an expensive weekend...[Jib Shredded]

K2MSmith

Member III
"Full hoist" is shorthand for a jib that goes to the top of the forestay. Sometimes a jib is cut for heavy air, and does not go all the way to the top; this lowers the center of effort to reduce heeling.
I recall the designation of a 'blade' jib as being less than 100%, and being hoist all the way up the stay.
The nicely-detailed picture you posted is indeed the type I was referring to.
The link I posted in reply 2, shows our jib sailing close hulled. The light across the said makes the three battens a bit hard to see, admittedly.
I agree with Christian's comment in reply 3, about how the sails (and tacks) much more like a dinghy with the small-overlap jib. :)
Why did you choose 97% rather than 100%. just curious if maybe you are trying to get a bit more clearance around the front of the mast. I don't see how the jib can furl with the rigid battens in them, but perhaps by the time it is rolled up that far, the battens are more parallel to the headstay at that point ? See my comment of self-tacking. it is an attractive option and I have used them, but it's yet another chunk of money. I will probably want to decide in advance of buying the jib if I want to go that direction because I am guessing that sail needs to be cut for it.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Note that the "vertical" battens are paralell to the headstay, and so they roll in with no difficulty. Not so sure why it ended up at 97%. I asked for something about 100%, and the loft owner @ North laid it out and that's just how it came out. I also wanted to utilize the (stock) short tracks inside each shroud base. So their location was measured and put into the equation. He measured the foretriangle size and angle. Since he has decades of experience I figured he must know 'what's what'.... :)
Other than experience, engineering and science, it's remotely possible that a chicken was sacrificed as well... ! :eek:
 

K2MSmith

Member III
We have cruising weight laminate tri-radial cut sails. They are designed with heavier cloth along the load paths and lighter cloth everywhere else. You have to look close to see that they are not Dacron. We have 6 years of hard racing, 6000nm, most offshore and the shape is the same as when we got them. At least as far as I can tell.

The cost was only marginally more than Dacron. All made in the local loft with full lifetime support by our sailmaker who makes us better sailors every time we go out.

Chris
I got a quote today from North on their tri-radial cut sail (100%) and the sales guy seems eager to come by my boat tomorrow so we will see him then. I got the original quote without vertical battens so I have to talk to him about cost that option. Cost was about 800 difference between that and standard cross-cut dacron.
 

gadangit

Member III
Having a sample of each fabric is always nice to see and touch, hopefully he brings some.

Whatever you choose, having new sails is great and you will wonder why you waited! (and then you pay the bill and remember.)
Chris
 

Slick470

Member III
We had a new North 140% tri-radial furling sail built last winter out of NorDac 6.0. It turned out really nice. It is however, very stiff and a pain to raise and lower and with the rope luff reinforcement it is a bit harder to flake. It does furl up very nicely.

I wanted a bigger sail that I could roller reef for our lighter wind area, but since I single hand 90% of the time, I may have it reefed a lot. If that works out, I'll have a smaller roller furling sail built with vertical battens. The battens allow the jib to have more leach area, otherwise the sail will be built with more leech hollow. I have a 110% sail with horizontal battens that was my go to for single handing prior to adding the furler last year.
 

K2MSmith

Member III
The visit with three local North rep today was very productive. Very knowledgeable!
After seeing the boat ( the sails are 15 years old
and and collecting info on my intended use , he recommended this product for battened main and jib :

Mainsail NPL Tour Xi White NorLam Xi09 CRW
P: 13.182m Area: 33.65m2

This is a laminated material that is as strong as Dacron but is lighter and resists stretch . It’s about 15-20% higher in cost than the radial Dacron. It is primarily a cruising sail but performance-wise would be a big improvement over what I have and would still be very durable.

He gave me material samples and you can feel the difference in flexibility of the two materials . He also mentioned that the laminate will be easier to flak solo ( I have a 14’ boom ).
Anyone have experience with this material?
 

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e38 owner

Member III
I have quite a few north sails. I have always been happy with them. I also bought a Sobstad spinnaker. Peter is great he will take the tome to discuss a solution.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Moderator
Blogs Author
I think that in the case of a good sailmaker--North for example--if you pay 20 percent more for cruising sails you do get 20 percent more. And laminates are cool, esp. when designed to rival or come close to (real) Dacron for longevity. Either way, sounds great--and sparklin' white brand new sails really put a smile on.
 

K2MSmith

Member III
I think that in the case of a good sailmaker--North for example--if you pay 20 percent more for cruising sails you do get 20 percent more. And laminates are cool, esp. when designed to rival or come close to (real) Dacron for longevity. Either way, sounds great--and sparklin' white brand new sails really put a smile on.
I need to research the laminate product a little more before I place the order . I found out today that the 2nd Genoa in the boat (120% ) will hold me over for a short while once I figure out how to mount it . It’s not in bad shape . It doesn’t have a UV jacket on the leech so it’s probably not going to last if i leave it out . It’s also really heavy - ballistic Kevlar embedded in there .
 

Keith Parcells

Sustaining Member
I need to research the laminate product a little more before I place the order . I found out today that the 2nd Genoa in the boat (120% ) will hold me over for a short while once I figure out how to mount it . It’s not in bad shape . It doesn’t have a UV jacket on the leech so it’s probably not going to last if i leave it out . It’s also really heavy - ballistic Kevlar embedded in there .
You should be able to have a UV cover added to your sail for a lot le than the cost of a new sail. It would be a worthwhile investment, afaik.
 

K2MSmith

Member III
You should be able to have a UV cover added to your sail for a lot le than the cost of a new sail. It would be a worthwhile investment, afaik.
I should check into that . Mounted the backup sail yesterday in the furler . Not an easy one-man job and the sail is a heavy material.
A slip neighbor mentioned that you can get a separate UV cover you can put on using the spinnaker halyard. Interesting. I’ll have to look into that .

You can tell the sail is a bit bigger and heavier material because it rolls up thicker on the furler . My furler had two tracks. ( is this normal or a racing feature ? ). Not sure which one to use so I put it on the starboard one , copying the slot where the old one was . After doing this , I can see my halyards need to be replaced soon . The rope is not damaged but it looks a bit old /dry .
 

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Slick470

Member III
The two tracks is a racing feature, but is pretty common on better furlers that aren't marketed specifically to cruisers. It allows you to change headsails without going bare headed. You hoist the new sail with at least one new sheet attached to the lazy side to windward of the old sail, tack and douse the old sail to windward of the new one. Then tie on the new lazy sheet.

For the hoistable jib covers, they work, but they have to be cinched down pretty tight to keep them from flapping around. Several companies sell them. Here is one option: https://atninc.com/atn-genoa-sleeve...noa Sleeve,hoisted with the spinnaker halyard.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi K2MSmith,

I use a headsail UV sock for my headsails. I like it. There is the added step of installing it after sailing so if you like to roll it and forget it you might not like the added step. For less than the price of two sun covers for your headsails you can have a sock made.

Having a layer of added fabric on the sail to protect it from the sun and not for any aerodynamic advantage never made sense to me, especially on the small sails of my E27.

A well designed sock is important. Some headsail socks are just sleeves and will flap in the wind. A good sock will have a way to cinch up the sock fabric so it doesn't flap. Mine has elastic bands sewn into the sock.
 

Slick470

Member III
As far as which groove to put the sail into, if you aren't racing, I don't think it matters, but when racing you generally want to be on starboard tack as much as possible so you have rights this means you would start the race with the sail in the port groove. That way you are on starboard when you are hauling the new sail up on deck and plugging it in. Set up that way you can hoist, tack, douse and tack back relatively quickly. - Edit. I'm pretty sure I got that right. It's been awhile...
 
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K2MSmith

Member III
We have cruising weight laminate tri-radial cut sails. They are designed with heavier cloth along the load paths and lighter cloth everywhere else. You have to look close to see that they are not Dacron. We have 6 years of hard racing, 6000nm, most offshore and the shape is the same as when we got them. At least as far as I can tell.

The cost was only marginally more than Dacron. All made in the local loft with full lifetime support by our sailmaker who makes us better sailors every time we go out.

Chris
the sails that the north rep recommended to me for cruising and “some” short-handed racing was their “tour” NorLam product . It is a laminate sail that is sewn tri-radial . It has a mesh layer inside but instead of laminated with Mylar , it is a more durable synthetic layer . It looks somewhat like very light grey Dacron from a distance ( see photo ). I was able to look at one of these sails in the Sausalito loft . It is substantially lighter than Dacron but it is supposed to hold its shape indefinitely. It is more expensive than Dacron - maybe 20-25% . I have a big Main , so the light weight would make handling ( flaking, reefing , hoisting ) easier . It sounds like you have a similar type of sail .
for the main , he recommended two full battens and ( 3 ? ) partial battens . For the jib , 3 vertical battens ( as Loren recommended as well ) . It will be cut to around 105%. He is basing this around the geometry of the rig and position of thw existing jib car tracks .
 

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gadangit

Member III
While our sailcloth is different, the concept is the same. And Lisa can hoist the main at the mast all the way up with no help. Could not do that with Dacron.

The batten topic is like the anchor topic. For what it is worth, we have full battens which work quite well with the tides track and lazy jacks. But partial battens are a good price point.

I always loved going to the loft and seeing the sails laid out on the floor.

Good luck with your choice!

ChrisBE83617F-0FBA-4B51-B6AA-B9F23535F3CD.jpeg
 

Brad Johnson

Member II
I have bought 3 North sails in the pass two years all Nordac 3di, Main , 135 Roller fuller and my new favorite 105 jib with vertical battens , the performance difference with the 135 is marginal and is so much easier to handle. I may use the 135 only if we get an extended light air days cruising other wise its the 105. My boat is a 1988 EricsonE26-2 I spent a little extra for those sails and hope that the 3di technology proves its higher price
 

K2MSmith

Member III
I have bought 3 North sails in the pass two years all Nordac 3di, Main , 135 Roller fuller and my new favorite 105 jib with vertical battens , the performance difference with the 135 is marginal and is so much easier to handle. I may use the 135 only if we get an extended light air days cruising other wise its the 105. My boat is a 1988 EricsonE26-2 I spent a little extra for those sails and hope that the 3di technology proves its higher price
I didn't discuss the 3di line with the rep yet. What he recommended based on my discussion on what I plan on using the boat for was the Tour Xi line (in laminate material called "NorLam"). I am not sure what the difference would be- it would be interesting to know. The tour Xi sails are expensive also compared to their dacron offering.
 

e38 owner

Member III
A uncovered sail deteriorates quickly The atn cover above will pay for itself quickly.
Another option is the sailrite kit. I have a sewing machines and built one in less than a day. The tie downs are key. I think the atn kits are stocked by defender. I think quantum also uses the atn kits. However there are trade offs Have a lighter is nice in light wind. No leach cover. In areas where it blows I would go with a leech cover. No flutter.
 
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