E-33RH Advice in buying one (Lake Erie)

[sf1332]

I am very happy to have found an Ericson to buy and (cross-)posting this hoping that owners with more experience would help me in the buying process:
----------------------
Hello all,

I am currently in contract to buy a 1982 Ericson 33 #12. (E33RH). Overall, she's in great shape, but would like some advice. (owner's craiglist posting no longer available).

1. The boat is strictly sold as is. The current owner (CO) went through a very unfortunate situation of losing his younger brother to cancer recently, and he seems to have strong emotional responses to being at the boat. He simply does not want to spend time there, thus even if the boat has been in the water this season, she's been hardly sailed/used. The CO and his late brother bought the boat together 3 years ago and has done a lot of work not to mention putting a lot of money in. Before then, the boat sat on the hard for 3 years. I believe she was involved in local yacht club racing prior to that.

2. The boat needs some work inside mostly cosmetic according to the CO (but not sure if any more "structural" work is needed). See photos below and let me know. These cosmetics work is need to finish the work done after water leak/damage from the Head port light per CO.

3. One of the keel bolts apparently "leaked", ie, some water was disappearing right near the bolt. Thus he unscrewed and sealed that keel bolt. Where would the water go if disappeared through some crack near the bolt? Empty void within TAFG? Deep sump in the hull? (see photos)

4. One important concern is that the mast is slightly bent to port. Pls see the photo attached. Taken from foredeck looking up. The mast also seems to have a little more pronounced bent aft from the mast head to where the forestay attaches (the top ⅛ of the mast as it's a ⅞ fractional rig, I believe). Is this something that a rigger can fix by adjusting shrouds? Since sat on the hard for 3 years, wondering if there's any permanent damage to the mast.

What are the major items to look into carefully specific to E-33RH?

I could not find E33RH Manual on-line...if anyone has it, would sincerely appreciate if you can PM me.

Thank you in advance!


Current (2018)

 

[goldenstate]

Seems like a professional survey is in order.

The mast is a big aluminum noodle so any observed bends could be adjusted with the standing rigging.

The keel bolt leak and bulkhead repairs are more concerning.

How is the engine?
Repair access is not easy in a 33RH.

Is there a seller’s listing advertisement on line?

 

[Rocinante33]

I looks like some good quality repair work has been done. If you can’t get more info from the PO can you ask in the yacht club about her?

I would worry some about the keel bolt leak. It is possible the keel should be dropped and re-bedded. Survey might decide that but be sure to tell him about it.

Are all bulkheads repaired where there was water intrusion? How are the chainplates, their hull attachments and the through deck around them?

port/ stardboard list to the mast must be corrected and there should be wedges at the partners ((deck/mast interface) around the mast for additional support. See the E-33/36 owners bulletins in the resources section here at EY.org to set up the mast and adjust rigging. The aft bend of the mast is not a problem on this fractional rig. It is designed into it, but a rigger who knows fractional should look at it.

check forward deck around anchor locker and bow cleats for possible soft or delaminated area. Check corner of transom, deck and topside interface. Could need some reinforcement, which is not too difficult.

Check all thruhulls or ball valves for free movement.

check engine and transmission operation. Check zincs in heat exchanger and in exhaust mixing elbow. Replace raw water impeller.

check gaskets around port lights and hatches.

that is it for now.

 

[Rocinante33]

More:

Check rudde operation. Is it tiller or wheel? There are advantages/ disadvantages to each. Lubricate wheel chain & sprocket (motor oil);and rudder post (trailer wheel bearing grease).

Survey electrical panels. Is wiring original? Are any circuits non-operational?

 

[sf1332]

Seems like a professional survey is in order.

The mast is a big aluminum noodle so any observed bends could be adjusted with the standing rigging.

The keel bolt leak and bulkhead repairs are more concerning.

How is the engine?
Repair access is not easy in a 33RH.

Is there a seller’s listing advertisement on line?

The owner took down the CL listing right away after our contract. Basically, here are some highlights and positives:

1. New/recent Main & 110% headsail from Sobstad (2018 and 2019) I checked them out and looked good.
2. New Mac Pack (stack pack)
3. New Bimini (canvas and frame) installed
4. New "Fresh Head" installed with dedicated water tank under v-berth (changed hoses as well)
5. Cabin Sole replaced
6. New heat exchanger.
7. 3 new ST winches (2 primaries) and 1 on cabin top.
8. Replaced 2-3 water pumps

All the above seem to be amazing amount of investment thus I expect that the owner believed that the boat was in excellent/good shape. However, the "dark" side of me is thinking the price reflects the major investments needed, e.g. keel work, more bulkhead repairs, engine replace, etc.

At the viewing the engine ran smoothly at both low and high rpm. (However, he did tell me he was there earlier and ran the engine already before). He mentioned that the engine used to have black smoke coming out but currently almost nothing. Compartment was relatively clean and no strong smells of any kind.

Yes, the "leak" from keel bolt concerns me. Here are some before and after photos of the bottom (2018 when he bought the bought). On the "After photo" it seems there's slight paint peeling off ahead of where the keel stub meets the bottom of the hull.

 

[sf1332]

More:

Check rudde operation. Is it tiller or wheel? There are advantages/ disadvantages to each. Lubricate wheel chain & sprocket (motor oil);and rudder post (trailer wheel bearing grease).

Survey electrical panels. Is wiring original? Are any circuits non-operational?

Wheel steering, and turned smoothly. Electrical panels are all original, and didn't check/ask about non-operational circuits but will do.

 

[sf1332]

I looks like some good quality repair work has been done. If you can’t get more info from the PO can you ask in the yacht club about her?

I would worry some about the keel bolt leak. It is possible the keel should be dropped and re-bedded. Survey might decide that but be sure to tell him about it.

Are all bulkheads repaired where there was water intrusion? How are the chainplates, their hull attachments and the through deck around them?

port/ stardboard list to the mast must be corrected and there should be wedges at the partners ((deck/mast interface) around the mast for additional support. See the E-33/36 owners bulletins in the resources section here at EY.org to set up the mast and adjust rigging. The aft bend of the mast is not a problem on this fractional rig. It is designed into it, but a rigger who knows fractional should look at it.

check forward deck around anchor locker and bow cleats for possible soft or delaminated area. Check corner of transom, deck and topside interface. Could need some reinforcement, which is not too difficult.

Check all thruhulls or ball valves for free movement.

check engine and transmission operation. Check zincs in heat exchanger and in exhaust mixing elbow. Replace raw water impeller.

check gaskets around port lights and hatches.

that is it for now.

Glad to hear that the bulkhead repair work looked good quality. Unfortunately, the CO is in a marina where all the other boats are power boats. He has relied on his "knowledgeable sailor friend" (KSF) for all the repairs, refit, etc. The CO is a power boater as well (he owns a smaller motorboat as well), and his late brother was an engineer, which is reassuring. Perhaps down the road, the CO might let me directly talk to his KSF, but not counting on it.

Keel bolts & Survey: 1st concern is that I cannot find any surveyor soon. the 2nd concern is that the haul out might not reveal anything. I need to be prepared to do more investigation on my own in case a survey cannot be scheduled.

The boat clearly didn't have wedges around partners. Lifting up the cover, I could see the cabin inside. He said no water intrusion currently although the base of the mast cover was lifting up.

Thank you for all the other check list items!

 

[gabriel]

patching a bulkhead instead of replacing it in its entirety doesn’t say high quality to me. From the interior pics it looks like it’s more than just cosmetic. Nice boat still.

 

[Loren Beach]

Often (like 95% of the time) most 'problems' are the result of the owner not doing any major preventative maintenance. True of high end and lesser-quality vessels.

Rebed all (!) deck fasteners at 30 years, max. Re-bed the keel, same schedule. In fresh water, new standing rig every 25 years, max.
Good News is that a well designed and built boat like the Ericson will reward the new owner with several decades of stress free sailing and amortize out the maintenance.

When someone saves money by letting moisture get into and thru the deck and damage coring and bulkheads, this adds a lot of expanse that was totally unnecessary and was the fault of the owner.

Maintenance all falls within the old truism "pay now or pay later" - in boats you have to lower the selling price by the amount of money you did not invest in maintaining the boat. That's one reason the market is littered with used-up 'project' boats from the 70's and 80's with a negative value... :eek:
Better news is the best designed and originally built ones are worth restoring.

At the asking price, you are buying -hopefully- a decent running diesel engine, a fast offshore racer cruiser that can easily out sail similar size newer boats & look good doing it, cruise comfortably for weeks at a time...
and everything else from a physical standpoint, is free. Well, sort of.

Do make sure that the mast is only out of tune (very likely) and not in need of replacement. On all boats of this general size the rig is worth more than your proposed selling price.

No sure what to do about your search for a surveyor... in my area we have to have insurance in order to moor in any marina, public or private, and insurance companies will only insure a boat that has passed a survey.

Keep us posted. I have sailed that model and it's a marvelous design. Hope this works out for you.

Loren

 

[Chris Mc.]

I’m always suspicious of a seller that runs the engine before I arrive. The difference between starting a cold or warm engine is like night and day. Just something else to consider and and perhaps you can do a cold start engine check before finalizing the deal.

 

[CSMcKillip]

The bulkheads are no concern. They are 1/4 thin plywood and provide no structural support. The chain plates attach to stainless rods in the interior and attach down to the TAFG.
The leaking keel bolt: this could be a case of the keel being detached from the hull. Not a big deal as well. I have done this repair as mine didn’t leak water out but it brings water into the sump.
So if the sump is dry then at your next haul out you can inspect the joint and move forward with the repair. Once you purchase, you need to make sure the bolts are torqued to spec. - personally this is a major PITA. I can give you the scocket size and you will have to order it. You have current photos of the sole? The floor if not done will cost 5k for a replacement.

 

[CSMcKillip]

Chain locker it the forpeak, check for soft spots behind the hatch hardware, not the hinges but the stupid clasp that just goes into raw fiberglass. Check to forward hatch- these are Leemar Superhatches and nothing is made for them anymore. So if there is crazing on the acrylic you will be replacing it. There are 2 thru hulls under the head sink and one manual pump. The pump is for offshore pump out - there is a large thru hull for the sink drain and a supply thru hull for the toilet. The original head is discontinued … can’t think of the name off the top of my head. You can’t find parts. You have a diesel tank and holding tank on port. The holding tank is forward - check that the hoses are not soft. Diesel tank - may have a port for cleaning? Mine does not. Starboard is the water tank and the 2 batteries aft. Above the navigation station to starboard is the DC panel. 4 Phillips screws will tell you a lot of how the PO fixed items. Mine was wired very well. Lower of the panel is the AC panel. You should have a couple 10-15 amp breakers open. There are replacements for the breakers at a very low cost.

 

[CSMcKillip]

Mx25- my own personal experience with this platform has been reliable. I have never had a problem with ours in the last 13 years of service. I change the water pump impeller every year. I sail on a lake so I start the engine - back out and sail. I start her up coming back and put her in the slip. There are 2 fuel filters and a water separators to starboard. Port side high you should have 2 water pumps. One for the sump and one for the fresh water. The transmission is a bit jerky but have had no problems. The engine is a Kabota so any part for the actual engine can be picked up at your local farm and garden kabota dealer.. the batteries 2 are group 24 not 27. I would think that black smoke would be exhaust or valves / oil burn off.

 

[sf1332]

s

patching a bulkhead instead of replacing it in its entirety doesn’t say high quality to me. From the interior pics it looks like it’s more than just cosmetic. Nice boat still.

I wish the owner did in fact replaced the whole bulkhead....

 

[sf1332]

Often (like 95% of the time) most 'problems' are the result of the owner not doing any major preventative maintenance. True of high end and lesser-quality vessels.

Rebed all (!) deck fasteners at 30 years, max. Re-bed the keel, same schedule. In fresh water, new standing rig every 25 years, max.
Good News is that a well designed and built boat like the Ericson will reward the new owner with several decades of stress free sailing and amortize out the maintenance.

When someone saves money by letting moisture get into and thru the deck and damage coring and bulkheads, this adds a lot of expanse that was totally unnecessary and was the fault of the owner.

Maintenance all falls within the old truism "pay now or pay later" - in boats you have to lower the selling price by the amount of money you did not invest in maintaining the boat. That's one reason the market is littered with used-up 'project' boats from the 70's and 80's with a negative value... :eek:
Better news is the best designed and originally built ones are worth restoring.

At the asking price, you are buying -hopefully- a decent running diesel engine, a fast offshore racer cruiser that can easily out sail similar size newer boats & look good doing it, cruise comfortably for weeks at a time...
and everything else from a physical standpoint, is free. Well, sort of.

Do make sure that the mast is only out of tune (very likely) and not in need of replacement. On all boats of this general size the rig is worth more than your proposed selling price.

No sure what to do about your search for a surveyor... in my area we have to have insurance in order to moor in any marina, public or private, and insurance companies will only insure a boat that has passed a survey.

Keep us posted. I have sailed that model and it's a marvelous design. Hope this works out for you.

Loren

Yes, the local marinas (and yacht clubs) do require you to carry insurance...but found that insurance can be obtained, e.g. from Progressive without a survey. Currently, can't find surveyor in the local area...might have to expand search. I might be able to do a rigging inspection before the close.

 

[K2MSmith]

The E-33RH is a great boat and a rare find. I've been enjoying mine how for just over a year now. As with any boat, they will have their strengths and weaknesses. I purchased my boat and it was in good "turn-key" condition but as with any old boat, there is a pretty long list of changes/updates that I need to do. I probably spend about 25K in the first year, but that also included a new set of North Sails, changing the deck winch layout, major engine service etc. etc.

I would definitely spend the money on a survey ! Very important. They will tell you what the major concerns are. Luckily if you boat has lived in fresh water, you probably don't have any keel bolt corrosion (since you mentioned you have a leaky bolt..)

 

[sf1332]

The bulkheads are no concern. They are 1/4 thin plywood and provide no structural support. The chain plates attach to stainless rods in the interior and attach down to the TAFG.
The leaking keel bolt: this could be a case of the keel being detached from the hull. Not a big deal as well. I have done this repair as mine didn’t leak water out but it brings water into the sump.
So if the sump is dry then at your next haul out you can inspect the joint and move forward with the repair. Once you purchase, you need to make sure the bolts are torqued to spec. - personally this is a major PITA. I can give you the scocket size and you will have to order it. You have current photos of the sole? The floor if not done will cost 5k for a replacement.

Glad to hear this. The current owner (CO) told me the hull/keel is fine and he didn't even see k-h joint when he bought it and doesn't have it now. I trust him on this at my risk. Here's a photo of the cabin sole...believe he said ¾" thickness. Wish he lined up the grooves, but still looks great. There's a table as well that attaches to the mast.

 

[sf1332]

The E-33RH is a great boat and a rare find. I've been enjoying mine how for just over a year now. As with any boat, they will have their strengths and weaknesses. I purchased my boat and it was in good "turn-key" condition but as with any old boat, there is a pretty long list of changes/updates that I need to do. I probably spend about 25K in the first year, but that also included a new set of North Sails, changing the deck winch layout, major engine service etc. etc.

I would definitely spend the money on a survey ! Very important. They will tell you what the major concerns are. Luckily if you boat has lived in fresh water, you probably don't have any keel bolt corrosion (since you mentioned you have a leaky bolt..)

You have hull #18 but believe it's tiller steering. Same engine as #12, Univ 25? What major engine services did yours require?

 

[CSMcKillip]

It’s a 40yr old boat, at 12k it’s a good deal IMO.

 

[CSMcKillip]

Is the headliner installed backlot gone? Did they keep the old one to template it?