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E38 in WA

Nick J

Contributing Partner
Moderator
Blogs Author
No affiliation, but found this one kind of interesting with it's easily accessable wiring and 55hp! Yanmar. Must be some interesting stories behind both decisions.

 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
I'm intending to look at this boat and hope the EYO intelligentsia can enlighten these potential issues. I've never actually set foot on an E38x but have convinced myself that one of them is the right boat for me and leaning towards the 381 specifically for its cabin layout vs the other E38x's. I have owned a couple smaller sailboats and have always been a sailing enthusiast but I have no knowledge of E38x's beyond Christian's excellent videos (feels like a lived experience) and lots of internetting.

My first question is, is having a more modern and powerful engine really a *bad* thing? Or more just a not really necessary thing. I don't know but I'd suppose that if a 35hp engine can push an E38x at hull speed than speed wouldn't be the main benefit of this repower. I'd be inclined to think lower effort/wear, improved fuel efficiency, maybe less noise/vibration or other ergonomic intangibles like better fluid handling methods would just be a bonus on top of a timely refreshing of the power plant.

OTOH, if it weighs significantly more, or is enough larger to cramp the 'engine room' more than it already was, or has other engineering/placement issues that make it actually harder to service, that might be a reason it could be a bad choice. In my limited reading on the subject, I thought I'd read that often the new engines just give you more power for better fuel economy and about the same size & weight, so why not. IIRC, looking at Beta's, there wasn't a significant difference in price between 35hp-ish and 50hp-ish engines. From the one photo, it looks like cables and hoses were carefully routed and shrouding wasn't tossed in the dumpster, so seems reasonable to assume a professional install.

That said, *if* the extra power actually can be brought to bear without just pushing her down in a deeper hole, the inland waterways of the PNW get a lot of light and *very* variable winds, so getting somewhere on any kind of schedule is often by motor. Plus, with 10ft+ tidal swings, currents in some of the narrow passages can be fierce to dangerous, so if you miss slack tide, you just bought a 6hr lunch break.

And, having oil in the bilge of such a new engine isn't a good indicator, regardless how it got there but hopefully it was just a booboo.

So, does a more powerful engine actually have realizable benefits or at least no real downside?

Second, the exposed wiring. Ugly. Not well routed, not well fastened down. Exposed to damage when people and things are pinballing around below. Not good attention to detail drilling/cutting/mounting things. Tagging, if accurate, is a start but a *great* labeler is nothing in a boat budget.

It's easy to assume that these workmanship oversights could carry through to other more worrisome issues but I'd hope it would fall short of requiring major rewiring. I'd think that in general, it wouldn't be exposed to rain/spray/splash any more than typical. Are there any other real concerns you folks would have, aside from people of a higher aesthetic will get see-sick looking at it?

I'd also want assurance from a survey that the leak that prompted the 'marine plywood' floor repair mentioned in the ad is not just the tip of a rotten iceberg. I don't know if the structural grid in an Ericson is FG over wood or other materials but I've been around enough FG over wood hull and cabin sides repairs to not want to buy any more of them unless they are either very minor or part of a very big discount in price. Can anyone comment on the type of construction of the structural grid in the hull and have any knowledge of it needing repairs? Theoretically, some are made with either foam or hollow forms and the structural rigidity comes from the FG laid over them, nothing inside to rot. Possible leaks or waterlogging issues but no structural concerns from reliance on the integrity of wooden stringers/beams(ribs?).

Otherwise, it looks like a fairly well outfitted boat, at least from what can be seen in the few pics, and is most likely in an average state of systems lifecycles, so likely to sail off the dock fine and start needing repair/replace procedures on the usual schedules. My guess is, with the newer engine, it's probably priced close to yacht broker value and the questions will be what shows up in a survey and how motivated the seller is.

Thank you, people, I appreciate the EYO community and really hope to become a participating member some day sooner than later.
 

southofvictor

Member III
Blogs Author
Looks like the exposed wiring is just to bulkhead instruments right? Not pretty but would be easy to re-route into a cleaner bundle given the exposure. Re-power + oil in bilge not surprising because the inaccessible areas of the floor grid hold oil and can’t be cleaned very effectively so it’s hard to get a really clean bilge once you’ve had a lot of oil in it. We bought a repowered 38-200 a couple years ago and the bilge water is clean but the oil residue just keeps coming back. The engine looks pretty tight in that space so accessibility may be a problem at times. Not sure about the cabin sole situation. Have you seen the boat in person? Probably worth a look if it’s not to far away.
 

Tooluser

Flǎneur
@Vtonian Unpopular opinion, but I think there's a bit of a reactionary attitude in sailing by and large toward diesels. And why not; they're smelly and a hassle. We got sailboats to sail, not to motor. Etc etc. An anthropologist would nod and talk about schismogenisis as a foundation of cultural identity.

Yet a modern diesel can be much quieter, more efficient, smaller, and easier to maintain than the 40-year-old tractor engines installed in most of our boats.

Too overpowered of a diesel can be a bad thing; they don't like to run too cold. But beyond that, I think it's entirely fine to have - and take care of, and tweak, and maintain - a modern diesel. Do I love it? Not at all. But without it, I couldn't sail - besides getting around wind gaps, as you say, schedules are a reality for most of us. We'd all love to be Moitessier, content to drift and philosophize and be in tune with the subtle zephyrs and careless about when we came to port, but someone has to pay for all this fiberglass. . . . and being able to count on doing some sailing on the weeks I can be on the boat matters.

I saw this boat too and was interested. The exposed wiring could be covered with a secondary offset wooden panel to allow easy access. The rest of the issues I'm curious about too. I'd love to hear more if you visit the boat.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
@southofvictor, I haven't seen the boat, yet. Hoping to soon. From the wiring pic, it looks like some wires might not be long enough to reroute (is it not common to leave a service loop on boats like it is for networks or buildings?), but I'd think it's solvable with some routing, clipping down and maybe a bit of cover.

Good tip about the possibility of the oil in the bilge being just old trapped leakage. I wouldn't have thought of that, assuming when the old engine was out, the bay would get a total spiffing.

@Tooluser, yep, dang few of us can just noodle away days waiting for fair winds. I'd sure like to though... One of the reasons I singled out the Ericson 38x is prioritizing light air and pointing performance, precisely because I know I'll want to have a good cruiser's chance to make destinations without incinerating dinosaurs. But AFAIK, we're not in the Trade Winds and I feel like I'm doing an ok job keeping my carbon footprint well below the average.

Good point about it being generally bad to run diesels with a light load. Now you mention it, I recall reading that about trucks and tractors, diesels rely on heat for combustion so running cool makes them less efficient and more prone to fouling.

I'm still curious if anyone could speculate on whether the original 35hp could be considered at all underpowered enough to make some justification/room for the 55hp. If all the boat could ever use is 35hp (without just digging the hull in exponentially) than I could see where more could be not good, where the engine never works hard enough to run efficiently. The newest boat I see on the interwebs right now is a '93 Pacific Seacraft 380, that has a 43hp, but no info on whether that's a standard engine or repower.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
Some slipshod research suggests the Yanmar 55 is 34" x 22" x 24" and 443lb, vs the Universal at 32" x 18" x 22" and 352lb, so the Yanmar would take up an extra inch of space at each end, 2 inches on each side, and assuming crank height is probably pretty close, an extra 2 inches at the top.

Other than center cockpit sailboats, I've not seen many engine bays that I would consider 'roomy', and as a tall guy with some mechanic background who always appreciates a little extra room to work, I'd hope there was true value from the larger engine and not just a 'why not' decision to go bigger.

For weight, the Yanmar appears to weigh 443lb vs 352lb for the Universal, so ~90lb extra in the stern, so I guess that'd mean leaving one child behind or add some ground tackle forward, or...

I also notice the Universal may have had the oil filter at the front on the port side, the Yanmar has it in the middle of the starboard side. Maybe a bummer if you have to empty the cockpit seat locker to change the oil filter but at least that should be part of planned maintenance and not emergency repairs underway.

I also see a stated 1.79:1 gear reduction for the Universal, vs a 2:1 for the Yanmar. Doesn't seem like much and I'd think careful prop selection could be part of addressing any potential running temperature/performance differences.
 

southofvictor

Member III
Blogs Author
We have a Yanmar 29 hp and a 16” three blade Maxprop which drive the boat to 6.1 or 6.2 kts through flat water at 3200 rpm max rated engine speed burning 1.5 gal/hr. We typically cruise at 5.5 kts at 2500 rpm burning .6 gal/hr.

Some may consider this underpowered but it works for us.

I agree with Toolooser’s good idea a secondary panel covering the back of the instruments and wiring may be the way to go.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
@southofvictor, I'm not a mathelete but I think you're getting something like 88% of the speed for like 40% of the fuel when you're cruising, so easily a wallet/carbon/comfort winner.

I just don't think there's going to be much advantage to a 55hp engine, otherwise I'd think somewhere in the lineage they would have gone there. The biggest engine I could find was a 380 with a 43hp Volvo.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
FWIW, if repowering an E-38 (approx 16K disp.) I would lean towards a Betamarine 38, at 370# weight. The next size up, a 43 hp, weighs about 550#. When shopping for a repower, you will usually arrive at a comparison where none of the alternatives are "perfect" so you pick the compromises you like best (or will fit into your boat). Maybe this boat was re-powered and the engine you see now was the best choice available.

Also, remember that EY used to install alternate engines at the request of the purchaser -- a friend of mine has a mid-80's E-38-200 with a three cylinder Yanmar, factory installed for the original owner. Runs just fine, but it's different to see gray paint when first viewing the engine...!
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
I looked at this boat and for those that were curious, here's my thoughts, prefaced by this being the first E38x I've set foot on, so I can't make any comparisons with other examples, and although I'm enthusiastic, I've only owned a couple Thunderbird's and crewed a bit. I did have with me a friend who has owned a couple of classic wooden yachts and provided good insights. The following however is not an expert opinion...

Overall, I'd say it looks like a 40yr old boat that was sailed, rather than tied up at the dock, so probably good bones, probably would sail away from the dock just fine but probably everything should have some attention over the next few years, and you shouldn't be surprised if some things needed repair/replacement. AFAIK, that's how anyone should look at any boat purchase, ever, regardless. Still, Bristol she ain't.

I'd assume that somewhere along the line, the PO wasn't able to keep up with it and it suffered a bit of neglect. The CO says it sails fine and I'm sure it does. We did not take it out.

I believe the CO said the PO was ex-military and single, and it could be said the boat is outfitted/upgraded in a military-ish manner: good gear; over spec'd/sized; utilitarian installations; function first, aesthetics not a priority. This is evident in the pic of the exposed wiring and rough carpentry of the instrument installations.

Regarding the 55hp Yanmar repower that piqued my curiosity, the extra inches in the dimensions take up space that was tight to begin with. Cramped engine bays are a pet peeve of mine: it's a design choice, maybe exemplifying the disdain for powerplants in sailboats but at the expense of the mechanic who keeps you from crashing into things when you're not wafting about under a cloud of sail. The PO opted to accommodate the 2" extra length of the engine by bolting a chunk of 4x4 to the sill to move the ladder forward. I don't think there was any room to shorten the shaft in back, so the engine had to protrude forward but this is good example of the utilitarian installations. I know it would drive me nuts to not fix that, and I'd be tempted to yank the engine to 'do it right' and rework the whole space but to each their own.

There are also a number of other systems/upgrades packed in the vicinity, so for example, the palatial spaces in the lazarette shown during Christian's steering repairs (haha) are mostly non-existent here. I would probably consider each carefully and delete or move any I could.

Other notables are the massive (maybe 8"), powered winches on each side, and a powered winch on the cabin top for the main. Nice kit but also more expensive stuff to go wrong.

Another utilitarian example was the Li-Ion battery for the powered windlass, which was installed exposed on the bookshelf above the V-berth. Other similarly utilitarian modifications/repairs were evident.

And a question came up about some rot under the port lights: I assume the interior cabin sides are plywood but is it plywood that was glassed into the original construction, and thus a PITA to get loose to repair/replace, or was it placed there afterward so potentially easier to pull out and splice in a repair? In one spot the lower deck headliner was loose, and you could just get your fingertips behind the bottom edge of the wood, which was loose there, but I don't know if that was because it was just totally rotted loose or if the wood was never integral to the cabin side construction process. There were also different vertical seams on each side, one between lights, the other above one of the larger Ericson windows, so it seemed like someone had maybe done a repair before by just piecing in whatever bit was necessary. Is that ok on these boats? Any thoughts on whether the cabin sides interior wood is more cosmetic than structural?

There were other problems, if someone else here is thinking about looking at it, but no need to bring them up here unbidden. This boat is not a chick magnet in its current condition (unless it's a particularly salty chick) although as long as things work, who's going to complain about powered winches, or making it to the anchorage before dark?

FWIW, about E38x's in general, I'm 6'-4" so I was immediately disappointed to find the claimed 6'-4" headroom apparently means at the actual cabin top, not at the headliner, or the ribs and fasteners that lurk above it (ouch). Any other 6"-4" sailors thinking about one, take note. Also, about my personal perspective/attitude that may come through in this, I'm looking for more of a full-time sailing/living configuration than a weekender or a month in the summer. In general, I prefer things to be minimal, simple and reliable, although I have to acknowledge that functioning powered winches could be pretty nice for single handing in our variable conditions.
 

Prairie Schooner

Jeff & Donna, E35-3 purchased 7/21
I looked at this boat and for those that were curious, here's my thoughts, prefaced by this being the first E38x I've set foot on, so I can't make any comparisons with other examples, and although I'm enthusiastic, I've only owned a couple Thunderbird's and crewed a bit. I did have with me a friend who has owned a couple of classic wooden yachts and provided good insights. The following however is not an expert opinion...

Overall, I'd say it looks like a 40yr old boat that was sailed, rather than tied up at the dock, so probably good bones, probably would sail away from the dock just fine but probably everything should have some attention over the next few years, and you shouldn't be surprised if some things needed repair/replacement. AFAIK, that's how anyone should look at any boat purchase, ever, regardless. Still, Bristol she ain't.

I'd assume that somewhere along the line, the PO wasn't able to keep up with it and it suffered a bit of neglect. The CO says it sails fine and I'm sure it does. We did not take it out.

I believe the CO said the PO was ex-military and single, and it could be said the boat is outfitted/upgraded in a military-ish manner: good gear; over spec'd/sized; utilitarian installations; function first, aesthetics not a priority. This is evident in the pic of the exposed wiring and rough carpentry of the instrument installations.

Regarding the 55hp Yanmar repower that piqued my curiosity, the extra inches in the dimensions take up space that was tight to begin with. Cramped engine bays are a pet peeve of mine: it's a design choice, maybe exemplifying the disdain for powerplants in sailboats but at the expense of the mechanic who keeps you from crashing into things when you're not wafting about under a cloud of sail. The PO opted to accommodate the 2" extra length of the engine by bolting a chunk of 4x4 to the sill to move the ladder forward. I don't think there was any room to shorten the shaft in back, so the engine had to protrude forward but this is good example of the utilitarian installations. I know it would drive me nuts to not fix that, and I'd be tempted to yank the engine to 'do it right' and rework the whole space but to each their own.

There are also a number of other systems/upgrades packed in the vicinity, so for example, the palatial spaces in the lazarette shown during Christian's steering repairs (haha) are mostly non-existent here. I would probably consider each carefully and delete or move any I could.

Other notables are the massive (maybe 8"), powered winches on each side, and a powered winch on the cabin top for the main. Nice kit but also more expensive stuff to go wrong.

Another utilitarian example was the Li-Ion battery for the powered windlass, which was installed exposed on the bookshelf above the V-berth. Other similarly utilitarian modifications/repairs were evident.

And a question came up about some rot under the port lights: I assume the interior cabin sides are plywood but is it plywood that was glassed into the original construction, and thus a PITA to get loose to repair/replace, or was it placed there afterward so potentially easier to pull out and splice in a repair? In one spot the lower deck headliner was loose, and you could just get your fingertips behind the bottom edge of the wood, which was loose there, but I don't know if that was because it was just totally rotted loose or if the wood was never integral to the cabin side construction process. There were also different vertical seams on each side, one between lights, the other above one of the larger Ericson windows, so it seemed like someone had maybe done a repair before by just piecing in whatever bit was necessary. Is that ok on these boats? Any thoughts on whether the cabin sides interior wood is more cosmetic than structural?

There were other problems, if someone else here is thinking about looking at it, but no need to bring them up here unbidden. This boat is not a chick magnet in its current condition (unless it's a particularly salty chick) although as long as things work, who's going to complain about powered winches, or making it to the anchorage before dark?

FWIW, about E38x's in general, I'm 6'-4" so I was immediately disappointed to find the claimed 6'-4" headroom apparently means at the actual cabin top, not at the headliner, or the ribs and fasteners that lurk above it (ouch). Any other 6"-4" sailors thinking about one, take note. Also, about my personal perspective/attitude that may come through in this, I'm looking for more of a full-time sailing/living configuration than a weekender or a month in the summer. In general, I prefer things to be minimal, simple and reliable, although I have to acknowledge that functioning powered winches could be pretty nice for single handing in our variable conditions.
Great report. I share your tastes and prejudices here and would probably pass too. But could be a great boat for the right person. Good luck finding your 'just right' vessel.
Jeff
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I'm looking for more of a full-time sailing/living configuration than a weekender or a month in the summer.

There are better boats for that. Hunter 45 or something. The e38 is handsome, which works against livability.

I really, really don't like the choices and taste of the present owner and that would disqualify me instantly.
 

Nick J

Contributing Partner
Moderator
Blogs Author
One of the distinguishing factors for Ericson above others was the joinery and finish work. I like spending time below and it fits my family well for weekend trips and a few week+ excursions. The disadvantage is access to equipment, but it's a tradeoff I'm more than happy to make. I can appreciate a more utilitarian take on interiors, but if you're going to go that route, start with a boat built that way so you aren't destroying finish work.
 

Tooluser

Flǎneur
@Vtonian thanks for the excellent tour and analysis. It's nice to get to experience the decisions of others. If you're in the Gig Harbor, WA area, you're welcome to take a look at my E38.
 

Nick J

Contributing Partner
Moderator
Blogs Author
@Vtonian thanks for the excellent tour and analysis. It's nice to get to experience the decisions of others. If you're in the Gig Harbor, WA area, you're welcome to take a look at my E38.
Does this mean you ended up buying the boat you were looking at? If so, congratulations!
 
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