Standing rigging estimates?

[Kenneth K]

Ken,

A few of my chain plates had rust stains, so I assumed they were not going to look great when I pulled them. Since I was replacing the rigging, I thought it would be best to just replace everything.

Nick,

Thanks for answering all my questions.

Glad to hear Garhauer is still easy to work with. That was my experience, too, a few years back. I'm right there with you about replacing the chainplates. Mine show very little rust from deck level and I treat them with Capt. Tolley's every year to help keep them dry. But, if the goal is remove ALL the deck hardware, pot the holes with epoxy, and re-bed, then it makes little sense to re-install 40 y/o hardware, no matter what the apparent condition. I'll get around to it eventually. Maybe I can have Garhauer make the U-bolts in 12mm--that way they should fit the custom toggles I've already had made to fit on the existing chainplates.

Good work!

 

[vanilladuck]

I'm also pulling the chainplates on Rumour and they are stuck really well in place. We've had to be persuasive to say the least. The best method so far seems to be threading a nut on the end of the U-bolts and whacking it with a heavy hammer. This breaks up the poultice corrosion that's built up around the stainless U-bolts and the aluminum blocks. Eventually the aluminum block falls away and I keep hammering to get the U-bolt out.



We're also removing the tie-rods to sand off any corrosion/rust and check for pitting. So far they mostly look okay. On the starboard side, the tie rods can't be unthreaded from the TAFG attachment points because the cabin side veneer wood is in the way. I pulled the teak trim off and cut small notches to allow me to unthread them. The notches will be covered by the teak trim later.



The aluminum blocks are pretty trashed, so I'll be buying all new or having them fabricated. Hayn bought NavTec, who was the original manufacturer for our tie-rod chainplate system on the Ericsons. Not sure if I will replace the U-bolts -- after putting a wire wheel on a drill and grinding off all the rust, sealant, and other crud, they look okay. No pitting or fractures. But, it might be prudent to replace.

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The five chainplates which are accessible in the salon seem easy enough, but the E32-3 has one chainplate in the head. And it's surrounded by cabinetry:



Any thoughts as to how to get to it? @Nick J do you have something similar on the E35-3?

The only thing I can think of is cutting a notch in the top of the cabinet to access the bolts and use a some sort of punch-like tool to hammer out the U-bolt. The notch could be covered by an additional piece of wood trim later.

Btw, the headliner is already out of my boat and I'm well on the road to replacing the deckhead

 

[Nick J]

Sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time removing the chain plates. I used debond to help with the sealant, but I didn't have nearly as much aluminum powder on the thread as you're finding. The one in the head looks challenging. I've heard some people had to drill a hole in the deck and extract it from above. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but it's nothing some epoxy and a plate of G10 can't fix.

My problem is the connection between the rod and the aluminum slug in the TAFG. So far, I haven't been able to get any of them to budge. On the 35-3, the port side rods thread into turnbuckle bodies that are pined to standard chain plates, so they all came out easily. The rods on the starboard side thread into 1 1/2" aluminum round stock. After 40 years, my rods seem to have no intention on releasing their bond from the aluminum. I tried a butane torch to heat up the aluminum, but there was too much anti corrosion spray in there and it quickly flashed. Thankfully it didn't' start a fire.

Great idea on removing the trim and notching the cabin side veneer. Once I get my rods to turn, I'm going to have to do the same thing or go at it from above if that doesn't get me enough clearance. From your pictures of the staining on the veneer, I'm guessing your corrosion is probably from a leaking port light or some other fitting above the block. My two corroded blocks were probably exposed to water the same way. The deck is completely dry around the u-bolt holes.

 

[vanilladuck]

Sorry to hear about the troubles on your boat as well. This is all great work though and will probably help provide for another 40 years of great sailing.

My problem is the connection between the rod and the aluminum slug in the TAFG. So far, I haven't been able to get any of them to budge. On the 35-3, the port side rods thread into turnbuckle bodies that are pined to standard chain plates, so they all came out easily. The rods on the starboard side thread into 1 1/2" aluminum round stock. After 40 years, my rods seem to have no intention on releasing their bond from the aluminum. I tried a butane torch to heat up the aluminum, but there was too much anti corrosion spray in there and it quickly flashed. Thankfully it didn't' start a fire.

I had this exact problem as well with a couple of the rods. I have a trick that worked on my boat. Hopefully, it will work for you too. You'll need:

• Kroil or PB Blaster (I prefer Kroil as I think it 'creeps' more easily into tiny spaces)
• Hammer
• Adjustable wrench

Put your wrench on the machined flats of the rod and tighten it as much as possible. Shoot the threads with Kroil above and below the 1 1/2" aluminum round stock. While putting pressure on the wrench, strike the SS rod with the top of the hammer. The strikes should land on the SS rod as close as possible to the aluminum stock without touching the aluminum. You can use more force than I do in the demo video: https://youtube.com/shorts/GTJg7dZMJf0



Patience pays. Once the vibration from the strikes breaks the corrosion lock and you'll hear an awful sound and maybe get 1/16 - 1/8th of a turn on the rod. Shoot more Kroil and work the threads back and forth. Repeat with pressure and the hammer. More Kroil, rotating, etc etc

This boat is getting doused in Tel-gel once everything goes back together

From your pictures of the staining on the veneer, I'm guessing your corrosion is probably from a leaking port light or some other fitting above the block. My two corroded blocks were probably exposed to water the same way. The deck is completely dry around the u-bolt holes.

I think you're right -- the veneer in my boat was pretty trashed around the forward opening portlights. But, I'm slowly finding and sealing all the leaks. One was most likely from my dorade box drains:

32-3 Dorade Leak

Anyone out there had a leaky dorade hose on an E32-3 or similar configuration? I pulled the old, unused cabin heater exhaust stack off the stbd deck a few weeks ago in hopes of resealing the 3" hole it left. There was a little bit of wood core damage inside, but only about an inch +/- in any...

ericsonyachts.org

Back on the cabinetry in the head: my rigger and I were conversing and have decided not to mess with the chainplate in the head. It's not leaking and connects one of four lower shrouds. Most boats of this size only have two lowers. None of the U-bolt chainplates were visibly leaking before the project. I can keep an eye on it and if it begins to leak, I can dive back in and repair it even if the rig is stepped. Would be curious if anyone has any different thoughts or risks I'm not thinking about

 

[Pete the Cat]

I am sorry guys but all this effort to pry the chainplates out of your boats for "preventive" replacements seems a questionable use of time. As I have posted before; the only rigging failure I ever had in 50 years of sailing and deliveries was on a nearly new replacement shroud. My view is that replacement does not always mean better. I am not suggesting that this area should be ignored for inspection, just that catastrophic and failure of chainplates seems to be a bizarrely rare occurrence. Seems to me there should be a set of checklists for checking for incipient failure indicators for things like keels and chainplates, but there are so many other potential points of failure that this seems really distracting busy work, when there are so many grimy tasks that actually could prevent problems.

 

[Christian Williams]

That was my thought too, at least for future students of this topic wondering what to worry about. Specific to the 32-3, I felt a bit of visible corrosion on aluminum backing plates was not significant. But it is always a personality check, as much as a gear check.

 

[Loren Beach]

That was my thought too, at least for future students of this topic wondering what to worry about. Specific to the 32-3, I felt a bit of visible corrosion on aluminum backing plates was not significant. But it is always a personality check, as much as a gear check.

I would also suggest that seeing some powdery signs of corrosion on that big aluminum "connector plate" is also a possible sign that some moisture has worked its way down from the top. If this deck penetration has not been re-bedded, better to do that important preventative maintenance work. Consider that any such leak will also be entering the balsa coring on its way downwards.

 

[vanilladuck]

A couple of the aluminum blocks I took off showed zero powder around the perimeter. But when I removed them I was not surprised to see similar conditions to my photos above. Once poultice corrosion starts, it doesn't stop. And, it carries the fun attribute of being stronger than the surrounding materials over time -- it will puff and push metals, pit stainless steel, and break fiberglass.

The holes through the deck are not drilled very cleanly either, which could exacerbate any leaks that form.

Are we sure the core of the side decks is balsa? It could be plywood, no?

 

[Loren Beach]

Are we sure the core of the side decks is balsa? It could be plywood, no?

Absolutely could be different than our '88 boat. You will know when you hollow out the deck center/coring when you have the shroud parts off, before you fill with thickened epoxy and redrill, however. Best also to note that I speak for the Olson's and not nesesarily for the Ericson's proceeding down a nearby production line.

I dug out the coring from around those thru-deck connectors when our boat was in the shop in 2021. No plywood there. There was plywood coring under the coming for the winches, under the traveler, and under the cockpit sole, however.
Also, the deck in that area did have a noticeably heavier glass layup than the rest of the deck. I believe that the layup schedule was different everywhere it needed to be for calculated loading. (Also extra glass was observed in the center of the transom where the backstay tang was thru bolted.)

I would not be at all surprised if your Ericson also had calculated/engineered extra glass layers in higher-stress areas, given its design brief to be strong enough to continuously race offshore. (Just my opinion, and worth .02, with Sunday discount...)

 

[ConchyDug]

Here is some reassurance your efforts are not in vain or a waste of time. That's for a cap shroud... on a 38. Probably original to the boat, after I saw that I went scorched earth on the rig, everything got replaced. Luckily that was pretty early in ownership of the boat and I had not taken it out in a stiff breeze.

I second the Garhauer u-bolts are way better than the Navtec or RigRite ones for a lot less money. They are substantially larger but finding toggles was a pain. After reading this post I had no idea Garhauer would make custom toggles. Guess I have another project thanks for the info!

Just a wild guess but I imagine the reason we don't see a lot of rig and keel failures is because most people aren't stress testing them in austere conditions.

 

[Pete the Cat]

View attachment 52215
Here is some reassurance your efforts are not in vain or a waste of time. That's for a cap shroud... on a 38. Probably original to the boat, after I saw that I went scorched earth on the rig, everything got replaced. Luckily that was pretty early in ownership of the boat and I had not taken it out in a stiff breeze.

I second the Garhauer u-bolts are way better than the Navtec or RigRite ones for a lot less money. They are substantially larger but finding toggles was a pain. After reading this post I had no idea Garhauer would make custom toggles. Guess I have another project thanks for the info!

Just a wild guess but I imagine the reason we don't see a lot of rig and keel failures is because most people aren't stress testing them in austere conditions.

I would agree that most boats spend their lives in the marina and this skews the rate of failure. But this problem did not require the removal of all the hardware to see the problem. I am much in favor of inspections. I am less enthusiastic about disassembling things that have no indication of failure. That bend, if part of the original design (wow, my 32-200 has nothing like that), would be worthy of regular inspection. There are way more questionable things here than that serious crack. I agree that Garhauer makes good stuff (or at least they did before the old man died). I am much more suspicious of other metal providers--especially new rigging wire and fittings from foreign sources. The quality control in foreign shackles makes me really not trust any of them no matter how they are labelled.

 

[Nick J]

Questionable material suppliers and 40 year old boats with absolutely nothing wrong with them are real things that do exist. Crevice corrosion is also a very real thing. I don't think you need to inspect chain plates frequently, but never isn't the answer either. At the very least, they are all bedded in sealant that has a finite lifespan. A little preventative maintenance could save headache down the line.

So far, I've found a crack in my backstay chain plate and the starboard cap/intermediate backing block is corroded to the point that it has allowed the deck to raise about 1/8" of an inch. this is enough to crack the gel coat, but not enough to crack the fiberglass. I've also found the rods are frozen in the aluminum blocks in the TAFG, so you can't adjust the 1/8" out of the system to correct the deck flex. Everyone's risk / reward tolerance is different. For me, I think 40 years was a good run and it's time to assess everything so the next 40 years go smoothly as well.

Purchasing the new u bolts from Garhauer before inspecting them, was a little overkill, but I'm happy to be doing it and it's going to give me confidence knowing everything is new. Between Garhauer, my local rigger, and the rigging company making the new standing rigging I'm confident the new equipment will be high quality. I'm going against my natural tendency to go with the lowest bidder/ internet provider on this project to hopefully avoid the pitfalls of questionable material suppliers.

 

[Jim Picerno]

As I mentioned earlier I've elected to go ahead and replace my 35 year old standing rigging. When the boat goes in the water in May, I'll be able to inspect the u-bolts, and I expect by unzipping the headliner in the cabin I'll be able to see the aluminum blocks as well as the tops of the tie rods. However give the settee backs are solid teak rather than having cutouts of some kind, or removable doors on the "38-200's", it looks like it'll be difficult to see where the tie rods attach to the TAFG. As much as I like the cabin design of the "38-200's" I can't figure out why they elected to make the backs of the settees solid teak rather than with cutouts or removable doors, which would make inspection easier as well as providing storage behind the settees. Should I worry about inspecting the tie rods themselves along with the connections to the TAFG?

 

[Dave G.]

I can't figure out why they elected to make the backs of the settees solid teak rather than with cutouts or removable doors

That seems strange, on my E30+ there were plastic inspection/access ports in the backs. Would think they did the same on all models.

 

[Loren Beach]

While there are factory small cutouts on our teak plywood settee backs, I long ago removed the back pieces for refinishing/varnishing. They were held on with SS screws, and teak plugged, and the plugs seemed silly to me since the cushion back covers all of the screws anyway. I suspect that the guys assembling the interior sections were simply told to countersink and plug everything... saves more complicated instructions. (?)
Anyhooooo... I can remove either seat back section in about 15 minutes; even faster with the DC battery drill motor.

 

[Nick J]

Put your wrench on the machined flats of the rod and tighten it as much as possible. Shoot the threads with Kroil above and below the 1 1/2" aluminum round stock. While putting pressure on the wrench, strike the SS rod with the top of the hammer. The strikes should land on the SS rod as close as possible to the aluminum stock without touching the aluminum. You can use more force than I do in the demo video: https://youtube.com/shorts/GTJg7dZMJf0

View attachment 52213

Patience pays. Once the vibration from the strikes breaks the corrosion lock and you'll hear an awful sound and maybe get 1/16 - 1/8th of a turn on the rod. Shoot more Kroil and work the threads back and forth. Repeat with pressure and the hammer. More Kroil, rotating, etc etc

Bryan,

Thanks for the tip. I'll try this tonight. I also applaud your patience. If my rods were terminated like that, I would cut the aluminum slugs and replace them. I'm sure that would cause some other problem though. The 35-3 placed them athwartship and I don't have access to put any kind of cutting tool in there.

 

[Kenneth K]

I think the main thing Brian and Nick are guilty of is engaging in rational and independent, if unpopular, thought.....

It seems to be universally accepted that standing rigging should be replaced at 15-25 years (depending on usage). At 30 years, nearly everyone agrees that the sealant around deck hardware needs to be replaced. So, does anyone really want to go on record advocating potting and resealing most of their deck penetrations except for the chainplates? Or, to recommend replacing all of the standing rigging wires but not the fittings that attach them to the boat?

It's an unpopular job because it requires tearing into our nicely appointed Ericson interiors. But once that is done, chainplate removal should be a simple task--it's only two bolts per chainplate and some 40-year-old caulk. The fact that Brian and Nick have encountered difficulties somewhat proves that the task was necessary. It's the corrosion (which only gets worse with time) that makes the job difficult.

 

[Kenneth K]

Are we sure the core of the side decks is balsa? It could be plywood, no?

These pics are from underneath the starboard stanchion base (located midway between the bow puplit and the shroud chainplates). You can see it's a plywood core under the stanchion base but balsa only a few inches aft (the black circle). You can almost visually discern the plywood through the fiberglass layers (the yellow corners).

 

[Nick J]

This post is getting a little off topic, but has some great info on inspecting chain plats. To directly answer @Kif ‘s original questions, here’s a general summary of the estimates for my rerig:


Replacement standing rigging from Fisheries supply: $3,325

Harken MKIV Unit 1 racing furler: $2,818 (replacing a functioning Pro Furl)

Tides main sail track: $1,468 (no damage to existing track, but wanted easier sail handling)

Sheaves from Zephyrwerks: $480 (all sheaves are aluminum on steel pins. they still turn, but not easily)

Garhauer u-bolt chain plates with toggles: $960 (not necessary, but I don't want to put the originals back in after the work it took to get them out)

Other equipment (lights, pins, toggles, consumables etc): apx. $1,200

Paint estimate: apx. $5,000 (I'm doing the prep and the hard is handling the actual painting. This is based on the last time they repainted a mast this way which was the end of 2024. We don't think I will have to take out mast down to bare aluminum, so the actual cost should be a little less)

Labor: $144 per hour

So far I’ve used 4-6 hours of the riggers labor. I have no idea how much time I’ve spent on the project or how much time it would take them to do the same amount of work, but I’m sure it would be exponentially more than 4-6 hours

Since everything is 40+ years old, I’m addressing the rigging from the terminating point in the TAFG, through the deck, to the top of the mast. That may not be necessary on my boat or others, but if I don’t do it now, I don’t know when I would ever get to it.

So far it’s gone extremely well with everything coming apart fairly easily, but I have found a cracked backstay chain plate, corroded chain plate blocks, and a seized turn buckle. At the mast end, it’s just been surface corrosion that’s caused the paint to bubble and easily sands off to clean, solid aluminum. However, corrosion doesn’t stop until it’s addressed, so it’s a good time to clean it up before it starts affecting the structural integrity of the mast.

I had some really good success with the starboard chain plate rods last night, but I’ll post that over on the chain plate inspection post to keep everything together.

 

[vanilladuck]

Definitely plywood around the chain plates on my E32-3. Plywood is nice because it degrades so much more slowly when compared to balsa. Even with some water intrusion, the core was in good shape. Here's a couple photos before and after grinding back the core for epoxy:

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