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Autopilot/Windvane question: waves

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
First, I had a wonderful sail on Saturday, a ~ 32 nm race including about 1/3 upwind, 1/3 deep reach, and maybe 1/3 broad reach, give or take. Wind was 20-25 kts (so double reef and 90% jib), and seas were 5' at 9 sec, but this seemed to be 4' at 4 sec wind waves and 2.5 ft at 11 sec swell. (Don't ask me how these periods combine -- makes no sense to me.) Lots of whitecaps, but nothing even remotely breaking in a serious way. Anyway, it was exciting and I never would have been able to manage that singlehanded without the years of assistance you have all provided re: setting up the boat and figuring out how to sail it. So heartfelt thanks!

Second, my CPT wheel pilot was not up to the task -- even for short periods to step away from the wheel and adjust a sail or get sunscreen. Part of this was the belt, which did not maintain tension and kept slipping; that is something I can (eventually -- been trying for a while) fix. But even if the belt was perfect the CPT control seemed clearly not up to the task of managing larger, short-period waves, especially downwind/beam reaching when they were not directly behind but at an angle to the stern. Steering in these was totally manageable by paying attention at the helm, and required no major strength, but did take care to compensate as the wave picked the boat up, adjust as it surfed a bit down the face, and then adjust back to avoid being overcompensated at the bottom. Which happened a few times every minute. And the waves were not perfectly consistent since height and direction varied a bit due to the swell + wind waves combo. I suspect a windvane would have struggled too, more due to the shifting loads on the helm. This would have eaten my Raymarine wheel pilot for lunch, just due to the loads on the helm (the CPT is much better that way, when the belt is not slipping -- the latter is probably user error, in fairness to the CPT people.)

Regardless, it does not seem safe to have to be at the wheel all the time.

--> What does everyone do in these conditions? Is the idea that when farther from shore you just adjust course to suit the waves? Or do windvanes work better than I think in these conditions, and one should just use one of those? Or maybe one heaves-to just to put on more sunscreen? Conditions were exciting, but not scary (if one stayed at the wheel) -- and not unusual -- they just seemed beyond the autopilot, and the inability to just easily head forward to adjust the main, etc., was not great. Heaving-to might work for lunch, but makes it harder to trim a sail for the course you want, etc.

Another possibility is a better autopilot... maybe a Pelagic. Depite my distinct lack of enthusiasm for (yet) another expenditure, being able to leave the wheel seems important, and maybe I can connect a Pelagic controller to the CPT. Unclear if a belowdecks (even more $$) drive system would even fit in my boat; I'd have to look carefully. But before I think more about any of that, I wanted to ask here:

--> Would a Pelagic controller (or maybe a modern Raymerine thing, or something) handle that sort of sea state (especially beam reaching or downwind)? In an Ericson (34-2)? There is no point my spending more money only to discover I have another solution only good in winds and seas the CPT or Hydrovane can already handle, or which would only work in a heavier boat. It wouldn't matter so much except the conditions described are pretty normal around here, so it would be nice to have a better solution.

As always, any thoughts appreciated.

PS: For those starting their own search, some relevant topics have been discussed under:
CPT Autopilot: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/cpt-autopilot.21501/
Pelagic Autopilot: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/pelagic-autopilot.14867/
Windvane/autopilot choices: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/windvane-autopilot-choices.20054/
Recommendations for Autopilots: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/recommendation-for-autopilots.11407/
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Tbe answer, for any autopilot system, is to reduce sail until the boat is balanced, meaning sailing itself more or less.

In those conditions that probably means a radical reduction in sail area.

You stand hands off at the helm and rig so that the boat sails itself, or at least can recover from being knocked off course.

Unusal sail combinations are sometimes required, such as an intentionally over-trimmed jib, or a hugely reefed main, or no main at all.

It's passage-making, not racing.

No wheel pilot can handle long periods of such sustained work, and the CPT is probably stronger than a Raymarine. But nobody tries to cross oceans with a wheel pilot, a wind vane or electric solution is designed for that.
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
Thanks, Christian-

I was definitely over-powered (well, powered up), even with a 90% and double reef.

Based on your advice I think I will finally rig my 3rd reef point, since then I could get more radical in the sail reductions. Just requires me to decide how to do it (my E34 only has 2 reefing clew lines rigged in the boom, so for a 3rd I'll need new boom-end hardware of some sort... maybe a cheek block or something.)

PS:
In my particular case, I got a Hydrovane for long offshore stuff... it's the near-coastal area where it does not make sense to rig that (it's less convenient than the Monitor and others where you can lift/drop the windvane rudder; with Hydrovane the rudder's down/on from the dock onwards) that I want an autopilot, and then mainly for pretty short periods; If I could get good behavior for 5-10 minutes when I need it, that would be fine with me.

CPT: For anyone thinking about CPT:
- I'm not regretting the purchase -- unlike my Raymarine EV100, it's quiet and can handle bigger koads/heavier winds. What I'm struggling with is getting this to work in larger seas out on the bar outside the Golden Gate, which I always knew would be more of a challenge.
Also, their support is fantastic; I emailed them, and got a very detailed reply to my specific situation. Their view is it should be performing much better than I experienced, and that I probably need to shift the way I have it mounted, and also change the way I am doing the gain/deadband settings. Happily both are cheap things to do/try :)

- Pelagic is convinced their system will handle what I describe, but suggest a dedicated motor belowdecks... which is almost $4k by itself (from Lewmar; I'd need one from them fits my rack & pinion steering). Plus Pelagic's controller and a separate rudder sensor would end up at $2k+. And installing it all. Having just done a lot of costly work (standing rigging) I'm not in a hurry for that much more... hopefully messing with the CPT and sail balance will get me close enough for what I need to do.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Three reefs sounds like a good idea but after many miles I found myself just dropping the main in such heavy conditions.

Our boats sail well under jib alone, and there was never a loss of balance or issue for the steering vane.

Note that a third reef means re-rigging each time, because we only have two reefing lines, and rerigging in heavy conditions is awkward.

The workaround, for long cruises, is to give up the first reef entirely by tying the first reef clew to the boom. Then you are rigged for 2/3s or 1/3 mainsail area, but full mainsail isn't immediately available. In the trades, given the Ericson's easily driven hull, that works well.
 

bsangs

E35-3 - New Jersey
The workaround, for long cruises, is to give up the first reef entirely by tying the first reef clew to the boom. Then you are rigged for 2/3s or 1/3 mainsail area, but full mainsail isn't immediately available. In the trades, given the Ericson's easily driven hull, that works well.
Similarly, we don't even use the first reef. It's pretty pointless, considering how little sail area is actually reduced with it. (Sail came with the boat.) We had a third reef point made a couple years ago, and rig the lines for points two and three at the start of the season. Two is the sweet spot most of the time. Have only need to use three on a few occasions.
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
Nothing happier than being told there's work I don't need to do : )

And now that I think about it, I also almost always go from zero to two reefs; one is a bit rare.
 

southofvictor

Member III
Blogs Author
We use our first reef a lot, kind of like Christian says the boat goes well in anything over 15 apparent or so on the first reef.
We’ve found our hydrovane works well off the wind in waves as long as the wind is blowing. I think it’s because of the speed of response to any change in apparent wind angle but sometimes it just seems like black magic. We actually keep our rudder on most of the time and use it for as little as a couple hours if the wind seems like it will be consistent at all. The only time we use our wheel pilot is motoring or for short trips forward while hand steering.
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
I don't disagree with anything said here. I have a Raymarine under deck autopilot on my Tartan 37 that has handled 30kt quartering 15' seas for more than 24 hours at time and did the majority of steering on a 7000mi trip from SF to Maine via Panama--it could handle anything the boat could stay on her feet for. I have a Raymarine EV 1000 on my Ericson which is very disappointing for how quickly and easily it can be overpowered and how lazy the computer seems to be (but I have not spent a lot of time tweaking the reaction times but the old computer seemed better). I think underdeck (with a vane) is a nice combination for offshore and the underdeck Raymarine linear drive clutch does a nice job of clicking in and out with a button on the control--leaves the helm entirely free-- which makes it really convenient no matter what kind of sailing you are doing; I recommend it for anyone who can fit it in. I really don't need an underdeck for the bay and coastal sailing I do these days with my Ericson--reducing sail helps, but the EV 1000 thing cannot be made to reliably endure the SF Bay gusts we are seeing these days--I never really trust the damn thing.
 

gabriel

Live free or die hard
my feeling is that these boats (the mast head ones) only balance out with a full (unreefed) main when they are running big headsails like genoa??

I only use full main if its dead slow or sailing off the wind.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I wondered how it would be to singlehand Tally Ho. His self-steering needs are outside the usual parameters. We had a trim tab vane on the outboard rudder on an early Newick trimaran, which never, ever, could keep up with the speed or sudden acceleration.

Video will open to the segment:

 

bsangs

E35-3 - New Jersey
We use our first reef a lot, kind of like Christian says the boat goes well in anything over 15 apparent or so on the first reef.
Was reminded again yesterday how well our 35-3 sails when reefed. With gusts forecast to 25+ we set out with our third reef in on the main and the genoa, and even though the wind never really reached above 20, she still hummed right along for a few hours.
 
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