Tender E 32 MK III

[west]

This question is a takeoff from the rudder post/question. I didn’t want to change the subject so I started a new thread. Seth, when in 24-26 knots of wind I had the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> reef in and my 90% jib about 50% rolled up and was still fighting to keep from rounding up into the wind. Loads of weather helm and major heeling. This makes me wonder how I would handle 30-35 knot winds. Bare poles? I have to believe the E32 MK III can handle these winds and it is myself that needs to figure out how to handle it. Your and/ or others experience would be greatly appreciated.
West

 

[msc1212]

I've only been sailing a few years so my experience and answers are crude compared with others but here goes. Last summer I wanted to figure out at what point I need to put a reef in my main. I race single-handed a lot and putting a reef in the main takes a lot of energy. I only want to do it when I absolutely have to. I chose a day when the wind was blowing 15 knots and expected to build to thirty. I put on a 115% and went out for a screaming sail pointing at 30-45%. The wind built gradually to about 26-30 knots. I found that by drawing in the hydraulic backstay, tightening up on the boom vang, and easing the traveller to leeward I was able to point at 30-35 degrees without a reef at full speed (6.5-7knots). The weather helm was not significant enough to be overly concerned and heal was 25 degrees. I did this with only the autopilot on the helm. Past 26 knots things got a little hairy and now I know that past this point the boat needs a reef regardless of my trim. Up to this point the main sail controls can de-power the main without a reef. The boat isn't comfortable - no champagne on deck- but it's also not out of control. Increasing the rudder length hopefully will give me a little more control in conjunction with the backstay, vang and traveller.

 

[rwthomas1]

Something is not right with your sails, trim or rig tune. Although I sail an E38, those conditions, properly reefed and trimmed, are quite comfortable. Your 32 should be as well. RT

 

[Mindscape]

32-3 in 25 knots

I've got an '85 32-3 and with a single reef in the main and and my 150 Genoa furled about half way in we sailed pretty comfortably on Lake Michigan it 20 to 25 knots. Traveler was down and outhaul was tight. had the genoa cars set back a bit as well. Going upwind things were good, not sure how much heel, but as you would expect it was significant. Some weather helm, but not too bad.

I've felt that the 32-3 is a little tender but very manageable. I usually reef the main in 12-15 knots and start to furl the genoa in 18+.

Your mileage may very

 

[Seth]

Something is wrong

You need to look into this- if that windspeed is correct, with that little sail area I am surpised you have ANY helm-or any speed at all-One reef and a 90% jib fully open should be a very comfortable combo in these conditions-2 reefs if you have newbies on board. You may have too little headsail in relation to the main (I don't know how deep your 3rd reef is)-which will create some helm, but if it is as bad as you say, something else may be at play.

The first suspects will be mast rake and weight forward. If you have the mast raked (not bent, mind you-there is a difference) way aft you will get more helm than you want-but you would see this all the time, and excessive weight forward of the mast will aslo cause this problem (again-this will be present all the time).

Check the rake and weight issue, try a bit more headsail size relative to the main, keep the mainsheet just a tad looser, and drop the jib leads back a few inches-and call us in the morning!

Good luck!

S

 

[SeaRogue]

Weather helm

I am reviving this old thread because it is relevant to the topic I am interested in and to keep information on the topic consolidated for readers.

I just finished the Bone Island Regatta from Naples to Key West as well as the return race from Key West to Naples. The distance was 97.5 nm. Winds were generally high. It blew 25 kts or so for 6.5 hours and at other times the wind was a sustained 15-20 kts. I was using a brand new 145 genoa as a headsail.

I was the last boat in my class in both directions. Although I claim no skill as a racing skipper I had a very capable crew and I think we sailed the boat as well as we could. My sail trimmer is a naval architect and boat designer who has won his share of races and writes articles for sailing magazines.

It high winds we had tremendous weather helm and had to fight the boat, finding it impossible to keep it from yawing rather wildly. No doubt that the rudder input required to keep the boat somewhat on track slowed the boat significantly. Even with the main cracked off until it had lost its drive, the weather helm was severe.

I love my 32-3 but this is a very significant issue that I need to find a correction for.

I hope someone here on the forum has information that will help address this issue.

 

[Loren Beach]

Overpowered?

With the true wind continuously over 20, I would want a reef in the main combined with a full-hoist 100% jib.

To me, your chosen genoa was way too much area for heavy air sailing.
Slow, hard to helm, and suffering a lot of premature stretch in what should be a light-air sail.

Were you in a "white sails" class or a flying sails class?
All my sympathies if you started out in light air with a roller-furled headsail and were faced with the hassle of changing down in the middle of the hurly-burly of racing.
Probably worth the effort though (observed with the usual 20-20 hind sight!)to keep your boat moving at full speed in big air.

edit: here is our head sail, in reply #32 in this prior thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?1729-Self-Tacking-Jibs-anyone/page3

Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

Well, it sounds to me like you were carrying too much sail. In 25 knots on a beam reach, the E32-3 is comfortable with a double reef in the main and maybe a jib at J or less.

In 30 knots, a third reef in the main and scrap of jib.

In 40 knots, a scrap of jib gives complete control and a fairly comfortable ride.

Few boats steer well when heeled far over, and our boat doesn't like it at all. The 32-3 heels quickly to 15 degrees, and more than that is nearly always detrimental. Reduce sail accordingly. Other boats may not be reefed yhet.

The design is well rounded, meaning it does nearly everything well, and performs under either main or jib alone. But it doesn't stand up to clouds of sail, and downwind it doesn't surf to achieve the high momentary speeds of more recent hull shapes.

It's not a racing boat in any sense of the word. Six or 7 knots is the best to expect, and in a seaway that will be an active ride.

Dead downwind in heavy air the design rolls enthusiastically. I think a spinnaker would help, don't have one myself.

The wild yawing you experienced is the result of imbalanced sails. For any given condition, try more main and less jib, or less main and more jib.

Do whatever is necessary to reduce or eliminate weather helm, which makes the rudder a brake.

 

[e38 owner]

I can't agree more with what has been said about the proper sail area and trim. We often sail at altitude on a mountain lake and 30 is not uncommon. Although 30 at altitude without major rollers is completely different than 30 out in the middle of the ocean. That being said the 38 points well and handles well with a jib only. I am a big fan in wind of the right headsail not a partially furled headsail. A big ballooning headsail with the stress in the wrong points does not make for a comfortable ride. In addition we have a well cut headsail and can point quite well with headsail alone. Our cruising headsail is a 120 and it works fine. If there is not enough wind to move the boat with that who wants to sail anyway and under headsail alone it is good upto the high twenties

 

[Seth]

way, way too much sail

As our colleagues have said, you had WAY too much sail up. A 145 maxes out upwind at about 12 knots of TWS on this generation of Ericsons. Even on a broad reach, in 20 to 25 you are overpowered, especially if you haven't reefed the main. I would expect everything you described on most any point of sail with this configuration. BTW, only very heavy, full keel designs could carry this sailplan in this amount of breeze. ANY modern boat should have had at most a 100 % headsail and probably 1 to 2 reefs. I am surprised your experienced crew did not realize this. Shorten down sooner and you will be faster and happier. Cheers

 

[SeaRogue]

too much sail

Thanks for the comments, they are helpful.

I understand the opinions that I had too much sail up and that is probably true. We were actually in a lull when a sudden blow came up. At first I thought that it was just a squall line and that it would last 20 minutes or so....it actually lasted 6.5 hours. If I had known or suspected that it would blow so hard for so long I would have changed to a smaller headsail. Later I did roll some of it in. I did reef the main. We were on a reach. The boat stayed on its feet and only once did the rail get near the water, that being in a gust.

With regard to balance, I would expect that having a larger headsail would cause lee helm as opposed to weather helm. To reduce weather helm I first travel the main down to reduce its drive....if that doesn't do the trick I ease the main to take out drive. With the drive of the main gone the center of effort should shift forward thereby reducing weather helm. None of that worked. So, with the main not driving I would expect the boat to have lee helm or at least weather helm as the CE shifts forward.

Since I wrote the original post I looked over the diagram of the underbody of the E32-3 SD and discovered that the rudder is just about the same depth as the bottom of the keel. On my boat, the rudder seems to be shorter than the bottom of the keel. When I had it hauled out last time I discovered that the bottom of the rudder had opened up and the rudder was saturated with water. I had the water removed and the bottom sealed up. There was old repaired damage to the bottom of the boat around the rudder as well. If the rudder had been damaged and repaired by cutting off a foot or so from the bottom that might explain some of the boats behavior. A shorter rudder would have to be deflected to a greater degree to have the same authority to overcome weather helm perhaps??? Just thinking

 

[Christian Williams]

Here's the stock rudder:
[/ATTACH=CONFIG]16497[/ATTACH]

 

[SeaRogue]

rudder pic

Christian,

Thanks for posting the rudder pic.

It appears that someone whacked off the bottom foot or so of my rudder! Although that certainly helps with the issue of rudder damage by grounding it plays hell with rudder authority. I suspect that the PO who must have done it or authorized it, had no idea of the consequences.

I am trying to sort out what impact that would have on weather helm. It is the opinion of at least one naval architect that the boats balance can be changed in a way that reduces weather helm by increasing the surface area of the rudder.

 

[Christian Williams]

I doubt the area of the rudder is the issue. The faster you go the less rudder you need.

The rudder isn't there to keep you on course, it is there to change the course.

Fast sailing is technique as well as sail plan. I was once handed the helm of the 12-meter Courageous off Newport going to windward on a breezy day. The boat immediately flopped over on its side and the guys all started yelling at me.

I had let the sails fill too much. Twelve Meter boats are always sailed feathered into the wind, and the correct heel is never allowed to change.

So, first find the sail plan that matches the polar--the theoretical best hull speed for angle and wind.

Then steer it like a racing dinghy that will capsize if you screw up.

Do that, and you'll beat another 32-3 every time.

 

[SeaRogue]

cruising class

Loren,

Forgive me for not responding until now to your question about what class I was sailing in during the race. It was cruising class and I was using dacron sails.

The weather was forecast for 15 kts. I intended to use the 145 genoa up to 15 kts but change to a smaller headsail above that. It blew about 15 or less for awhile, the became calm. Quite suddenly a squall line came through with winds at 40 or over for a short period, maybe 5 minutes. We rolled in the jib and dropped the main, motored into the wind at full throttle making a half knot until it settled down to about 25 kts and stayed that way. We reefed the main but felt it unsafe to try to change the jib so I stuck with what I had.

Ironically I had just recieved the new jib and switched out my old, perhaps original equipment 122% heavier jib. If I had kept the original jib I would have rated better and sailed better.

 

[Dan Callen]

Ericson 32-3 Tender

This question is a takeoff from the rudder post/question. I didn’t want to change the subject so I started a new thread. Seth, when in 24-26 knots of wind I had the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> reef in and my 90% jib about 50% rolled up and was still fighting to keep from rounding up into the wind. Loads of weather helm and major heeling. This makes me wonder how I would handle 30-35 knot winds. Bare poles? I have to believe the E32 MK III can handle these winds and it is myself that needs to figure out how to handle it. Your and/ or others experience would be greatly appreciated.
West

Since my Ericson32-3 is for sale, I do have a few comments regarding the sailing qualities of this boat. I bought this boat new in 1989 and have been it's only owner. We do sail on a fresh water lake so my comments would be relative to this situation. We sail in either light air or very heavy air with very little in between. My boat has the wing keel which I have been very pleased with. I agree with most of the comments regarding sail trim, reefing etc. I have found this boat to do extremely well in light air and does need to be properly reefed in heavy wind. I can not imagine this boat being manageable with a foot cut off the rudder and I am referring obviously to the fin keel. I have raced with a 155% norlam jib and have done very well. The boat is not a J boat but I have never had a problem competing with boats its size......Catalina 30 and 34, Sabre 30, San Juans and so on just to mention a few. I am probably biased, but to me, this one of the best 32ft. boats ever designed. Plenty of storage for its size, great sailing performance and so easy to handle. I get comments all the time about design and looks. Do I sound like a salesman or what!
One thing of interest is the 32-3 has the same rudder and engine as the 35-3. Dan Callen Ericon 32-3 Andiamo #753

 

[mkollerjr]

Went sailing last night under only my 130 Genoa in about 10 knots to see how she felt. I know, not that much wind, but I didn't feel the slightest bit of lee or weather helm. The boat pretty much steered herself.

Mark

 

[Christian Williams]

For the record: if you want a virtual encyclopedia of the 32-3 under various sailing conditions and rigs, the video of my Hawaii sail is pretty much it. Conditions ranged from dead downwind in constant 20-25 knots (winged out, often 135 Genoa alone) to beating against strong trades on the return leg (third reef, 90-percent jib) to a gale of 30-40 knots (scrap of jib only).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28T..._comment_id=z13lyjlqmymjx3qde22odl4gnrfttphu4

 

[Rick R.]

I don't think anyone has logged more miles in an Ercison 32 than Christian.

Our boat needs a first reef around 15kts then it tracks fine without weather helm. When the wind pipes up we then take in the Genoa to about 100%. After that, the second reef.

Great boats!

Mark we enjoy sailing with the Genoa downwind.

 

[SeaRogue]

Christians Hawaii trip

For the record: if you want a virtual encyclopedia of the 32-3 under various sailing conditions and rigs, the video of my Hawaii sail is pretty much it. Conditions ranged from dead downwind in constant 20-25 knots (winged out, often 135 Genoa alone) to beating against strong trades on the return leg (third reef, 90-percent jib) to a gale of 30-40 knots (scrap of jib only).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28T..._comment_id=z13lyjlqmymjx3qde22odl4gnrfttphu4

Christian,

I have watched the video of your single handed trip to Hawaii a couple of times previously. I particularly enjoyed your dancing on the cabin top

I did notice you going wing and wing as well as with the jib alone. In the 40 kts. did you simply roll up the jib or or arrange to have the "scrap" of jib or did you use a separate storm jib?