1976 E27 Rudder Leak fiberglass damage

[cworley]

Hello - Not sure how to approach this issue, see picture. The port side rudder obviously is leaking out of the rudder. There is prior evidence of patching, but does not appear to have been any significant cut outs made to explore the "real" problem. I am suspecting that there is rust on the rudder substructure (frame) somewhere that has pushed through an existing crack due to damage. I remember reading that the rudder frame is stainless steel, but not totally sure on that. Does anyone know it is made of or have a picture of the rudder frame superstructure? My thought is to grind away the damaged area and see what I find. Don't think I need to drop the rudder. Could there be water getting into the rudder from the top somewhere that is the actual root to this entire problem? The previous owner was not aware of any damage, and this has appeared within the last year. Any thoughts, suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks - Chuck

 

[Loren Beach]

First you need to go on the fact-finding mission.

Tyveck suit, face shield, grinder.

Once you can see what damage/corrosion is present in the armature and if there is any metal missing in the rudder shaft, you can plan the next move.
This 'out patient procedure' should also give an idea of amount of water intrusion inside the rudder.

 

[sailing42]

Rudder repair

Not sure how far you are into the repair but if you need to remove the rudder its fairly simple - assuming the boat is on stands. Removing the tiller head casting is all that's required - just make sure the rudder is supported from below. There is no stuffing box or anything on the rudder - just a tube. If I remember you would need a block of about 16 inches under the keel to get the whole rudder and shaft out, alternatively you could dig a hole below.

 

[Frank Langer]

I recently asked a local boatyard fibreglass pro whether he advised drilling a drain hole in the bottom of the rudder at haul out, and patching it before launching again. He said no, that most rudders will leak at the top of the rudder post when under way due to pressure on the rudder, so draining it on the hard is a waste of time and only adds an unnecessary hole to patch.
I would be interested in whether anyone else has been advised to drill a drain hole or not. Also would be interested in what you find when you grind the rusty area to begin your repair.
Frank

 

[frick]

Foss Foam Ericson Rudders

As far as I know all Ericson's had Foss Foam Rudders.... They are still in business in California.

Their Compressed Foam does not absorb water.
However, in wintry climates, water that get in between the rudder post and the Fiberglass skin, and freeze and crush the foam. In my case water came in around the top of the rudder at the post... as the water froze and over 39 years of so, I was getting play in the rudder.

You can take two paths (Via West System recommendations)...

1: A Barn Door Cut in the side and dig till you find the problem. (Fix, Re foam and re glass)
2: Drill and crap load of holes and find the SS inner Framing. (I did this method 3 years ago) I mushroomed the holes that hit the framing and filled with 5200, I foamed the read, patched the glass, and then used epoxy paint. I also put the rudder over my boiler for the winter and let the heat dry it out.

The Third path is a new rudder from Foss (for my E29 that was around 1500 dollars) thus I did the cheaper fix.

Rick+

https://epoxyworks.com/index.php/rudder-repair/

 

[toddster]

So he was saying that it's normal for rudders to be full of water?
FWIW, I thought (hoped) that removing the rudder and standing it upside down in the garage would let all the water out through the rudder post. Probably not really that easy...

 

[garryh]

That rudders are 'designed' to be full of water is total bull. What a ridiculous statement. Many many leak at the rudder post, and others through flaws in the layup or previous damage... but ridiculous to say they are supposed to be full of water. Another one of those so called 'experts' with an 'expert opinion'. There are several of these guys in every marina and I catch them just being blatantly wrong on so many occasions. This particular expert is telling you that a rudder full of water will not blow apart when it freezes... like duuuhhh.
Remedies as noted above... start small and go large as you need to... way easier with the rudder laying flat and not a big job removing it. With all that rust staining evident, you either have mild steel in there or possible crevice corrosion of the SS; therefore there may be some structural decay now and possibly into more than just excavating, filling and patching. Make sure properly sealed at the rudder post with epoxy.
I have often thought that rather than drilling a hole, the installation of a flush garboard plug in the base of a rudder (and also the bottom of an encapsulated keel) might be a good idea for easy annual inspection and draining any water that does find its way in. And you at least then would know there is a problem to be addressed.

 

[Loren Beach]

Another Rudder Data Point

Reply #5 is more 'real world' in my limited experience.
Our previous boat had a transom-mount rudder and I removed it to reinforce the center of the transom and check the gudgeons. I found moisture in the area where the gudgeon bolts send thru, and there was a thin crack down the leading edge for a foot or two.
(We get freezing for several weeks at a time in winter but not enough to have to remove boats from the water.)

So one winter I propped the rudder up inside a warm(-ish) garage, drilled a buncha holes and let it weep and finally get dry. Not being sure of my glassing skills I took it to a good boat builder and they injected some resin and then wrapped the cracked leading edge with veil cloth and then faired it all out. I took it home and painted it with epoxy paint. The thickness was a tad more than when we started but the gudgeon straps still went on. Many years of use with no further problems and the crack never reappeared. That type of rudder did not have an internal armature, but the foam and shell part was like my present spade rudder.

Also, not true that zero rudders are 'designed' to have water inside the shell... any more than any other coring in a deck or elsewhere should have any water in it.

 

[Frank Langer]

In my earlier post, I did not state that the yard expert thought rudders were designed to hold water, just that with the constant movement and pressure on the rudder, it is almost inevitable that over time it begins to leak water at the rudder post.
Frank

 

[supersailor]

Tapping the rudder with a mallet could show the path of the water by giving a different sound in the saturated areas. Foam does not absorb water so a drain at the bottom will not work unless the entire rudder is saturated. The fiberglass surface coat is actually quite thin and can suffer from relatively light blows like backing into something or a grounding.

In this case, one would suspect water entry at the rudder post causing expansion of the armature and the resulting pressure finding a path to the surface. Loren, in reply #2 has the proper idea with an exploratory probe to find out what is going on with the post and armature. It is obvious things are happening. I would be very nervous about this rudder the way it looks. If the post and armature look to be ok, I would follow Friks method in reply 5. If the post and armature don't look ok, spring for a new rudder. As one of the Olson's
in the fleet found out, the boat is mighty hard to handle if there is only a foot of rudder left after it breaks off. There is no more important piece of the boat than the one that makes it go in the proper direction.

For what it's worth, There is also a Foss Foam in Florida and the California shop makes some of the rudders and the Florida one makes others.

 

[frick]

West System Fiberglass Repair Manual

http://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

 

[supersailor]

Hey! Wonderful link. I have added it to my important links in my already vastly overweight file for Terra Nova.

 

[cworley]

Patched and semi-fixed for now...

Hello and thanks to everyone for their great suggestions. I was not able to remove the rudder now, will have to wait until the winter pull out. So, I had to make a temporary fix. I ended up drilling about 12 holes in and around the leaking area. The core is/was saturated with water. The boat had been sitting on the hard for 2 years and the rudder was still full of water. I think the rudder was dinged at this location and then water was allowed to seep into the crack. The metal rudder frame was corroded, but still structurally sound. I drilled a single hole at the bottom of the rudder and allowed water to drain. I also blew compressed air into the ~12 holes at the top and pushed the water out the rudder at the bottom. I let the rudder dry out for a couple weeks, under a tarp, then sprayed Acetone into the top holes to clean and separate any water that was remaining. I blew in more compressed air and made sure there was no more water at the top. I found that blowing air into the holes every couple days helped push air out of the core. I then epoxied the holes closed and put a layer of glass on top to seal it good, put some bottom paint on. Will put the entire rudder off in the winter to complete a permanent fix. Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Tom Metzger]

For what it's worth, There is also a Foss Foam in Florida and the California shop makes some of the rudders and the Florida one makes others.

The Foss Company in California http://www.boatrudder.com/index.htm made/makes Ericson rudders and has the molds, not the Foss Foam Products of Florida.

 

[garryh]

I do not think the acetone was a good idea... will quickly dissolve the foam and you may now have some large voids. But- done now : ) And back to an earlier suggestion... I think a garboard plug at the base of rudders could be a good idea. Even though the foam does not absorb water, water will find a way down to the tip of the rudder. Especially after a few freeze/thaw cycles which will create fissures in the foam and separation from the glass skin.

 

[Emerald]

You are really going to need to rebuild it. You need to do this for structural integrity if nothing else. Once they start delaminating and become water logged, they are a failure waiting to happen - I have a friend who had one half of the fiberglass shell split away from the rest of the rudder while sailing.... I completely rebuilt mine, and it's doable if you're ambitious and have some fiberglass experience. Foss Foam in California (not Florida) can do it for you if you can't. I had a website with all sorts of project info. Unfortunately, Comcast killed their webpages several years ago, and I haven't gotten my whatever sorted out to go put it back and host it some place. However, the wayback machine has a pretty good archive. You should be able to follow my rudder re-coring project here:

https://web.archive.org/web/2015100....net/~independence31/rudder/rudder-intro.html

 

[garryh]

Boatworks Today also has a good video on recoring a rudder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXNnFx7DBQ

 

[Mark F]

Plus 1 on the Boatworks video. I followed his example when I modified a spare e27 rudder. By the way the spare rudder I had was bone dry inside - top to bottom. I recommend modifying the shape if you have to rebuild it anyway. I ended up spending about $400 on materials to rebuild/modify my rudder. Someone posted the line drawing below years ago. I used that as a rough guide. I was out in some 35 knot winds yesterday and the rudder definitely makes an improvement in handling.

 

[Captain Bligh]

E29 Rudder

So he was saying that it's normal for rudders to be full of water?
FWIW, I thought (hoped) that removing the rudder and standing it upside down in the garage would let all the water out through the rudder post. Probably not really that easy...

Hi all. Having had some experience with this I'll share. We have owned a 1973 E29 for approx 25 yrs. I noticed hairline rudder cracks after a grounding years ago and fearing freeze damage, started removing the rudder after each fall haul out. When upside down aprox a cup of Lake Ontario drains out of the stock over three or four minutes. She's tiller steered so this is no big deal. I leave the rudder under the boat till spring then remount it which is the toughest task. I'd guess it weighs maybe 40lbs, and getting heavier as the years(mine not hers) go by. Attempts to seal out the water with several coats of VC Tar, and sealant around the stock-fiberglass interface have failed to keep water out. Even fitted a plug with removable drain screw into the ID of the stock, but no success, same amount of water each fall. Alternatively, I've attempted to drill a drain through the side of the rudder at the level of the bottom of the stock but hit solid metal so decided against further aggression and left well enough alone. So far no apparent free play, so I continue with this ritual each year.
We still love and enjoy our 29 but as stated, time is moving along. Attempts to convince my now adult children and son-in-laws of the joys of boat ownership have thus far, even as a gift, failed to tear them from their cell phones and latte's. Happy sailing to all whom know the good things!

 

[Captain Bligh]

Cal Rudder as E27 replacement.

The deeper draft of the Cal rudder exposes it to grounding damage. Looks like it would require approx 6 inches more draft than the protective keel so one would need to be extra careful in the shallows. Also, does anyone else recall reading of a California Rudder maker that remanufactured a rudder with the wrong diameter stock? May have been a dream I had.