Alan Gomes
Sustaining Partner
I don't see how the flatness of the water and the headwinds would affect the fuel burn rate. It would certainly affect the number of miles you can traverse in a given time, though.
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Atomic 4 Died. What next?
- Thread starter Katie Jennings
- Start date
kapnkd
kapnkd
Amazing A-4 economy for sure…The ‘burn’ with our old A-4 in our 32-II averaged 1 gph. Our replacement Westerbeke 20B averages 1/2 gph.
Maybe I could have done that good by power-sailing the A-4 and running the engine just above idle (???).
…Is there such a thing as boating “down hill” on the water???
I have heard of many many sailboats with an A4, that burned about one gallon per hour. Over the decades, our several diesels use about 1/2 to 2/3 Gallon per hour at cruising rpm's. More fuel if bucking into head seas.
I have accurate records of diesel fuel burn, 80 concentrated hours (i.e. over one summer) for the M25 and 140 for the 4-cylinder Universal 5432.
The M25 on the E32-3 burned just under 1/2 gallon/hour at a hull speed of 5 knots (about 1700 rpms, or just above half throttle). Throttle was restrained for economy and noise.
The 5432 burned just over 1/2 gallon an hour under similar throttle restraints at a target speed of 5 knots.
Nearly all motoring was in light or no air and near-flat sea conditions.
The range of the 5432 on the E381 with 70 gallons fuel is a remarkable 700 miles.
The M25 on the E32-3 burned just under 1/2 gallon/hour at a hull speed of 5 knots (about 1700 rpms, or just above half throttle). Throttle was restrained for economy and noise.
The 5432 burned just over 1/2 gallon an hour under similar throttle restraints at a target speed of 5 knots.
Nearly all motoring was in light or no air and near-flat sea conditions.
The range of the 5432 on the E381 with 70 gallons fuel is a remarkable 700 miles.
I haven’t seen 1/2 gallon. 3/4 yes, with some attention to set-up. Or easing back to 4-5 knots. Beyond that, incremental improvements are said to be possible by leaning out the carb (with the optional adjustable main jet) and paying attention to the (optional) vacuum gauge. Cases can be made for even more exotic feedback such as (IIRC) exhaust manifold temperature. A gear-heads joy but possibly a nightmare for others. None of it seems worth bothering with unless a long trip under engine power is contemplated. And far out-weighed if you don’t maintain a clean bottom. Various discourses can be found on the topic, for example.
Hmm… Indigo used to have a oil heat exchanger that was supposed to help manage oil pressure and a long disquisition on how it “corrects” the fact that the A4 was never intended to operate for long distances. But it seems to be gone from the web. (Um… I have one, never installed. I hope I can figure out how it goes. But I’m sure they’ll provide instructions if I don’t wait too much longer.)
In fact, legend has it that the Atomic 4 (or its immediate predecessor) was only ever intended to operate for one day: June 6, 1944. Hence it was the simplest possible design. Which turned out to be a great feature for typical sailboat use. But making it work like a high-mileage diesel apparently takes a few tweaks.
For the E29 BTW, motoring “at hull speed” results in enormous prop wash force on the tiller. I wouldn’t even think about it for more than a short distance without the auto-tiller engaged. And I wonder if it shortens the life of the auto-tiller. But sometimes you need all the ponies, for example when approaching Columbia River hydroelectric dams and locks. Or perhaps mis-timing Deception Pass.
Atomic 4 Fuel Consumption - Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians
www.moyermarineforum.com
In fact, legend has it that the Atomic 4 (or its immediate predecessor) was only ever intended to operate for one day: June 6, 1944. Hence it was the simplest possible design. Which turned out to be a great feature for typical sailboat use. But making it work like a high-mileage diesel apparently takes a few tweaks.
For the E29 BTW, motoring “at hull speed” results in enormous prop wash force on the tiller. I wouldn’t even think about it for more than a short distance without the auto-tiller engaged. And I wonder if it shortens the life of the auto-tiller. But sometimes you need all the ponies, for example when approaching Columbia River hydroelectric dams and locks. Or perhaps mis-timing Deception Pass.
paul's project
Junior Member
Previous owner of my E 27 replaced the Atomic with a 9hp Merc. I sold that for 1500 and replaced it with a new Toatsu 20 (smalest outboard with elect start and auto lift. Also decided to strengthen the transom with a larger and thicker marine plywood and fiberglass backing plate. Amazing maneuverability in tight spots at the marina, can turn on its own circle, good top speed of 7, sips gas, 5 yr warranty.
Thank you for this! Very useful and I appreciate the information!
Thank you very much indeed!Hi Kaitie and Fanfan,
I posted a few blogs on this site about the electric propulsion system I installed on Lotus Flower a while ago. I'm not sure how you search Blogs but I think this will get you there. I do need to do an update....
Electric repower of Lotus Flower a 1976 Ericson 27
Well, three and half years into life with electric propulsion (EP) on Lotus Flower a 1976 E27 I think it's time to log some thoughts on the web. I will start with a timeline of the process.ericsonyachts.org
LeifThor
Member III
Loren, did you get the Beta 25 that's got the mounts same as the Atomic? Also, I'm curious how much taller it is, and if your engine is mounted in the cabin like my 1972 E35-2 is?? Sorry I have a million questions.
Like does your boat have a 3/4 shaft?
Did your Kubota (Beta) 25 come with a warranty?
Have you written about your repower experience?
It's an odd similarity, but my iphone 7 just died, and I could keep it going for maybe a year with a fair bit of effort, and then it would die permanently, or get a new phone. I chose to get a new phone. It works, and will work for hopefully some years (the 7 lasted 6 years)
Now my engine has died, and I could spend 500 to maybe fix it, for ? knows how long it will run. Ken from Moyer says it's had a lot of hands on it doing awful work to it, and so I'm faced with a similar decision. Fix it which may work for ? how long, or go for a diesel beta 25, preferably new, which if well maintained (which I would) could last a long time.
Thanks
Parrothead
Member III
Any advice you get from Ken at Moyer Marine is golden. One option I don't see mentioned is a Moyer rebuilt engine or a Moyer new block engine. Both are tuned and tested before leaving the rebuild facility on Universal's original dynamometer, come with a warranty and are exact drop-in replacements that will not require new fuel, electrical, shift and throttle control systems, prop shaft or new prop. Dropping it in is a weekend project, tops. If you get one with antifreeze cooling it will last virtually forever. Note that the defining problem with your existing engine was salt water corrosion which antifreeze cooling eliminates.
As for what makes the most financial sense, that flew out the window the day we bought our boats.
As for what makes the most financial sense, that flew out the window the day we bought our boats.
I did not buy the B-25 with the A-4 mounts, because I was replacing a Universal M25XP. Height appears to be about the same, maybe a bit less; actually the whole 'footprint' is a bit smaller and lighter weight than our former engine. You can d/l the Betamarine dimensions from their web site. Take careful measurements, and measure every which way -- twice!Loren, did you get the Beta 25 that's got the mounts same as the Atomic? Also, I'm curious how much taller it is, and if your engine is mounted in the cabin like my 1972 E35-2 is?? Sorry I have a million questions.
Like does your boat have a 3/4 shaft?
Did your Kubota (Beta) 25 come with a warranty?
Have you written about your repower experience?
It's an odd similarity, but my iphone 7 just died, and I could keep it going for maybe a year with a fair bit of effort, and then it would die permanently, or get a new phone. I chose to get a new phone. It works, and will work for hopefully some years (the 7 lasted 6 years)
Now my engine has died, and I could spend 500 to maybe fix it, for ? knows how long it will run. Ken from Moyer says it's had a lot of hands on it doing awful work to it, and so I'm faced with a similar decision. Fix it which may work for ? how long, or go for a diesel beta 25, preferably new, which if well maintained (which I would) could last a long time.
Thanks
Like other similar late-80's Ericson's our boat uses a one inch shaft. The warranty is a good reason to move up, and I like the terms of the Betamarine warranty better than (what I know) those of the Yanmar warranty.
If you click on Blogs on this site, I have a number of entries regarding our upgrade to the new engine in 2018.
I do get the idea of getting the last bit of utility out of things! I only bought an iPhone 12, when the old 3G tower scheme went away and I finally had to recycle my old flip phone. (I figure the money I had 'saved' on phones in the prior decades would buy me iPhone's for the rest of my life. So far, so good... )
About the money, yup, I knew I could rebuilt all of the parts of my 1988 engine for less money than buying a new one. But, when done I would still have a noisy old-technology 1988 engine. It's a decision that's parsed out a little different for every owner of a Good Old Boat.
Best of luck!
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p.gazibara
Member III
There is always the electric option, that is of course if you are willing to give up needing to do engine maintanence.
Yes, the biggest drawback of repowering with electric is how boring the maintenance schedule is. ;-)
Pete the Cat
Sustaining Member
I have had the opportunity to work on Westerbeke, Perkins, and several of the various marinized tractor engines, and that has made me respectful of Yanmar. Yanmar's engineering for marine use is not an afterthought like the others--they invest in the metals that resist degradation and corrosion that probably cost a bit more than black iron pipe and mild steel elbows we see on most tractor engines. Yanmar cooling systems are integrated into the engine design. My 25XP runs fine for what it is, but requires a lot more intervention to keep it that way because the dissimilar metals in the cobbled cooling system and the whole thing is tied to a transmission that is questionably adequate for its application (an HBW 50--for which parts are no longer available). My Yanmar has never needed a glow plug to start instantly in any weather--which testifies to the precision and tightness of the mechanical parts. Yanmar's customer service for small marine diesels stinks and folks like Beta Marine have managed to do a much better job of working with customers both in advertising, sales and service. I installed a Yanmar in my Tartan 37 ten years and 1200 hours ago, and would go that route again. I would likely go to Yanmar if my 25XP ever gives up the ghost. But I do not expect that, as most of these small diesels will run longer than my life expectation if I keep it in clean fuel, lubrication, and babysit the cobbled cooling system. I appreciate that maintaining it keeps me from straying into drug use in my spare time.
The world of small diesels is about to change with the advent of common rail technology. I am surmising that this is much like the transition from carburetors to electronic ignition in cars that we have gone through without much attention in the last 40 years. The common rail diesels will be cleaner burning, more efficient and eventually less likely to break down (just as cars have evolved if you are old enough to remember) but when they fail they may require diagnostic tools that may not be portable and the intellect of someone with digital skills and contemporary training. I am not planning to be working on these.
And therein lies the potential problem. Both an expert shipwright and the Betamarine dealer for this area are friends and members of our little YC in Portland. I was able to do the engine changeout at our slip, with help in many key parts.
I understand that another site member had help/advice from his local Betamarine dealer up in the San Juan Islands (WA).
One possible help may be to ask your dealer for local references, whether electric, Betamarine, or Yanmar. Ask around your YC, and post up a request on the marina cork board and on-line if they have a chat forum (marina or YC).
And perhaps some other owners logging in here can help.
And... and... I have had excellent luck asking for references from NW surveyors, as well. They always have to be circumspect and not say anything negative about a yard or a mechanic, but are adroit about putting recommendations 'between the lines' in conversations...
Regards,
Loren
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Hi Steve,
You can check in with https://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/our-company.php
Sally has been in the sailboat EP repower world for a while. I’m not sure what the company is up to these days but a good place to start. Any of the suppliers should have local contacts.
You can check in with https://www.annapolishybridmarine.com/our-company.php
Sally has been in the sailboat EP repower world for a while. I’m not sure what the company is up to these days but a good place to start. Any of the suppliers should have local contacts.
LeifThor
Member III
My Atomic 4 I thought was dead, may still be alive woo hoo!
I first want to say Ken at Moyer Marine is awesome. He's really helped me get more life out of this motor I've had for 4 years, and sailing it 3.
Having said that, like anyone, we're not perfect. Ken felt my engine was toast, and he had good reason. Some really bad engine work was done on my engine, and it's a wonder it's survived as long as it has.
Once the compression test came back with one cylinder at 40psi (the one spitting water out as well), I thought it was game over.
But two good mechanic friends of mine said to not give up.
So we took the head off, replaced the head gasket after finding the gasket compromised in at least two spots (attached photos), and bought the proper nuts to tighten the head down without washers (as it had washers under the wrong nuts before dying, a double no no).
First after cleaning it up, we ran the engine to make sure all the pistons were functioning well, and the valves were doing what they're supposed to do. Then after putting the head back on with a new gasket, it passed the compression test with flying colors. In addition, marvel mystery oil sitting in the pistons didn't leak through suggesting they're still pretty tight.
Everyone felt the low compression was also how the water was getting into the engine, via either a cracked head, block, or compromised head gasket. I got lucky, it was the gasket.
I still need to test the water jacket, but I'm confident it will pass. The honest truth is the engine was deeply put together wrong, and hopefully when I'm done it will be a lot better. It's quite the cleaning job (pics attached).
Hopefully this Atomic 4 will live to see another day. Yes I'd love to have a diesel engine, but I can't afford the 15k, and $800 instead for my engine all cleaned up with some nifty new parts and a paint job thrown in sounds a whole lot better. I just want to go sailing in the end, whatever gets me there faster, I'm all about that.
I first want to say Ken at Moyer Marine is awesome. He's really helped me get more life out of this motor I've had for 4 years, and sailing it 3.
Having said that, like anyone, we're not perfect. Ken felt my engine was toast, and he had good reason. Some really bad engine work was done on my engine, and it's a wonder it's survived as long as it has.
Once the compression test came back with one cylinder at 40psi (the one spitting water out as well), I thought it was game over.
But two good mechanic friends of mine said to not give up.
So we took the head off, replaced the head gasket after finding the gasket compromised in at least two spots (attached photos), and bought the proper nuts to tighten the head down without washers (as it had washers under the wrong nuts before dying, a double no no).
First after cleaning it up, we ran the engine to make sure all the pistons were functioning well, and the valves were doing what they're supposed to do. Then after putting the head back on with a new gasket, it passed the compression test with flying colors. In addition, marvel mystery oil sitting in the pistons didn't leak through suggesting they're still pretty tight.
Everyone felt the low compression was also how the water was getting into the engine, via either a cracked head, block, or compromised head gasket. I got lucky, it was the gasket.
I still need to test the water jacket, but I'm confident it will pass. The honest truth is the engine was deeply put together wrong, and hopefully when I'm done it will be a lot better. It's quite the cleaning job (pics attached).
Hopefully this Atomic 4 will live to see another day. Yes I'd love to have a diesel engine, but I can't afford the 15k, and $800 instead for my engine all cleaned up with some nifty new parts and a paint job thrown in sounds a whole lot better. I just want to go sailing in the end, whatever gets me there faster, I'm all about that.
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