E-38 Major Leak!

[sleather]

I can remember ericsons falling off trailers (being delivered) a few times..going around freeway cloverleafs too fast...anyway..falling off the trailers onto concret and being only cosmetically dinged up...

.......and the drivers were FIRED!
I watched a NEW 26' S2 being launched buy the DEALER. They disconnected the winch(on the level) and when they backed'r down the ramp it "scooted" off the trailer(roller) and landed on the HARD! They dragged/pushed it into the water and back on the trailer it went. Back to the shop!

 

[Seth]

Thank you, Guy!

Exactly-The 38's are in no way similar to the 37/39's and while they (the 37/39's) have some isolated issues-those were very rare and extreme.

For the newer 32/34/35/38 series of boats, apart from a hole, or the keel stub/keel bond issue, these boats are way too tough to have any of the problems initially rasied as concerns just from being "pushed too hard".

The only possible cause for taking on significant water "down there", apart from a hole, is the well documented problem with that keel to stub joining-which is not a structural problem and would not result in a sinking (unless being sailed or operated by a total incompetent).

'Nuff said!

S

 

[Frank Langer]

Seth, I'm just wondering....

Seth, I'm just wondering if any of these structural issues (including the hull/keel joint) were a problem on the 1984 E30+ boats (my hull # is 637). We have had the boat since Apr. 2006, and are delighted with her so far in terms of her condition and sailing performance. But I tend to be quite perfectionistic about my boats, so want to be proactive in knowing if there are any potential "problem areas" that I should monitor more carefully.

In particular, the pre-purchase survey noted about a foot long crack at the aft end of the hull/keel joint (recommended re-caulking at next haul-out). This didn't sound serious, and I know from the previous owner that he had the keel rebedded at a California marina where they used 5200 in 2001 to seal it. I will check it at haul-out this spring, but I'm not too worried about it.

I have searched and read many of the posts on this site about the hull/keel joint, and have read almost everything about the E30+. But if you can shed any more light on potential problem areas for this boat, or offer any other comments about how they were built, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Frank.

 

[ragamuffin]

Where are the Pics? they are not there?

 

[celtium]

My pics

Hmmm, will have to figure this out, sorry!

 

[celtium]

38-200 pics

 

[Martin King]

My tired old eyes can't tell much from those pics. If you have a bigger
file size, would you mind reposting them?

Martin

 

[celtium]

Pics

I'll try, had enough trouble getting those pictures on, basically your looking at a 2 1/12" x 3/16" hole on the starboard side, the gelcoat crack travels around the front of the keel to the port side back about 8". In addition, the aft portion of the keel has a crack running horizontally about 2' - 3' forward of the aft section of the keel around both sides. We did an emergency haul at about 5:30p, the hole was still leaking the next morning albeit slightly.

At this point I think the surveyor will suggest that the stick be pulled, torque the keel bolts, then grind the partner of the hull and hull and wrap it with 3 ply and gelcoat. Still haven't gotten the final report from the surveyor. I had my own surveyor look at it and he said it was probably 'hull flex' due to the conditions plus the boat had never been really sailed hard.

 

[FullTilt E28]

Hey -- looks like it got pretty rough out there

From the looks of it - I think your Surveyor is right. The boat took a good pounding and it hasn't experienced that before - keel was shook hard and the keel bolts might have been a little loose - the joint cracked the filler came off where the hole is and hey we have a leak. Shouldn't be a big deal - a pain to fix but shouldn't be anything major.

 

[Loren Beach]

This is no time for half measures...

If it were my boat:
having already hauled it out, I would have the keel dropped so that the threaded rods (aka keel bolts) could all be inspected. Clean up the mating surfaces, check over the inner structure where the loads are transferred to the hull and grid, and then re-attach.
Use lots of 5200.
Might as well "do it right" ... you're already 90% of the way there, anyway.

My .02 worth,
Loren

 

[Frank Langer]

Loren, if he uses 5200 to rebed the keel, won't that create a problem for him trying to get it apart if he wants to check the keel bolts a few years down the road? Is 5200 the preferred approach when rebedding the keel?

Frank.

 

[Loren Beach]

The yard that did mine is an OEM as well as a repair yard and seem knowledgeable. They advise a really good adhesive-sealant, and 5200 is that, for sure.
Note that most owners, despite what they read and see on forums like this will never have a keel rebedded while they own their boat. Preventative Maintenance is not a hot conversation topic around the ol' yacht club bar!

With a schedule of, say 15 to 20 years, for a keel rebed, I would prefer to go with the highest grade of sealant available. OTOH, you might certainly have to drive some wood or plastic wedges in after the nuts are off to get 'er to drop, next time around.

Having seen how well ours was re-attached, I would be inclined to wait the full 20 years to repeat that process... to express it in round numbers.

After seeing those pics on this site of badly-corroded bolts, after a bit over 20 years of salt water festering within the mating surface area, periodic rebedding just seems like something that should be done -- before you have a "problem." I liken it to replacing my standing rigging well before it fails or threatens to fail.

Advice free, and worth about what you pay.


Loren

 

[noproblemo2]

With all your recent "haul outs" you must be more than ready to just get her to her new home!! Would also agree with Loren's suggestion at this point just as a safety measure.

 

[celtium]

Rebedding

Now this is getting interesting, how to execute the repair. So...excuse my ignorance, is the keel to hull partner bonded or is it a pressure connection due to the keel bolts?

It's my understanding that the keel bolts have an approximate 300# torque, you would think that would be adequate, again I don't know.

My concern is that the insurance company do the right thing, obviously. The owner of the yard where the vessel is located doesn't think the keel needs to be dropped. I'm guessing that if the keel needed to be dropped he would if for nothing else that it's more work for him.

And yes, I'm ready to get her home! But, now I also have to decide to either truck her or drive her, if I drive her I'll do it with a delivery captain as my crew is no longer available. I may have no good choice but to truck her considering the winter storms may be here by the time the repair is complete.

 

[Cory B]

Drop It

My suggestion would be to drop and rebed the keel, and replace the (barely adequate) washers that Ericson used (at least on our boat) with something more substantial. And you can't really inspect the condition of the keel bolts unless you drop the keel - and based on the problem you've had I'd consider them suspect until proven otherwise. We went through all this a while back (see http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3448&referrerid=1311). Just tightening the bolts and throwing some goop on the outside may work as a temporary bandaid, but for me at least, there would be a constant nag in the back of mind that if I were in a nasty seaway that the problem might reappear.

As far as bedding material goes, we went with epoxy instead of 5200. It was the yards suggestion, and after doing a little bit of research I agreed with it, as thats what a lot of boat manufacturers recommend nowadays, although either would be an improvement from the crappy latex we found on ours. Between the epoxy, our repaired keel bolts, and our massive keel-bolt backing plates, I know we're stronger than new, and problems with the keel never enter our minds when we are bouncing around offshore of the NW coast... now we just have to worry about crab pots & fishing nets.

- Cory

Now this is getting interesting, how to execute the repair. So...excuse my ignorance, is the keel to hull partner bonded or is it a pressure connection due to the keel bolts?

It's my understanding that the keel bolts have an approximate 300# torque, you would think that would be adequate, again I don't know.

My concern is that the insurance company do the right thing, obviously. The owner of the yard where the vessel is located doesn't think the keel needs to be dropped. I'm guessing that if the keel needed to be dropped he would if for nothing else that it's more work for him.

And yes, I'm ready to get her home! But, now I also have to decide to either truck her or drive her, if I drive her I'll do it with a delivery captain as my crew is no longer available. I may have no good choice but to truck her considering the winter storms may be here by the time the repair is complete.

 

[Loren Beach]

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4679&highlight=olson+34+keel+bolts

This much corrosion (scroll down that thread for the pics) is probably rare, but years of salt water intrusion can lead to real problems...
Whatever adhesive you choose to rebed around those bolts, the bolts are still the thing that holds the keel on.

Take note of Cory's advice. He has definately been there and bought the T shirt.


Here is another related (E38) thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=614&highlight=olson+34+keel

Regards,
Loren

 

[rwthomas1]

In my searching for a local yard that I trust to do the keel rebedding job on my E38 this winter I found there are several ideas on keel rebedding methods. If the keel has to be removed on a semi-regular basis, like the Swan 42 racer's that one yard services, they recommended 3M 101. Seals well but the parts will come apart again. Another yard recommended epoxy for a permanent attachment. Most however recommended 5200. Keels are not removed regularly. Even 10 years is not regular enough to want any less of an adhesive. I am hoping for a 20year interval given the properties in the new adhesives such as 5200.

Some folks don't like 5200 but it all depends on application. For a below the waterline bond that requires a very aggressive adhesive on a part that should rarely or never come apart yet still requires a small degree of flexibility for expansion/contraction while maintaining a perfect water seal, it meets all these criteria. 5200 is the product for this application.

RT

 

[Martin King]

It's been interesting watching this thread develop. I'd agree with
Loren, that if it were my boat, I'd drop the keel and rebed. Torqueing
the bolts might band aid the problem but eventually it will come back.
Yeah it's a lot more money, but peace of mind is hard to put a price
on. Me, I like to sleep as well as I possibly can. I tend to worry
about alot of stuff when aboard, and I surely don 't want the keel
on the list.

As a side note (though not really Ericson related) the large cruising
designs my father has designed usually have the keel bolt holes
drilled oversize and the bolt threads are bedded in epoxy. Washers
and nuts may be added on top, but they are mostly decorative
after the resin kicks.

Martin

 

[JMCronan]

Just dropped my keel and rebedded. I used 5200 (yard recommended).
No keel bolt problems, the only corrosion was on the alignment bolt on the aft end of the keel. But very minor.

I believe that dropping the keel rather than just some sort of patch would be sensible. It would be better to spend the extra effort now and have it done the right way the first time. If for nothing else your piece of mind.

 

[celtium]

rebedding

It would appear that conventional Ericson wisdom dictates the I rebed the keel-hull partner in 5200 or epoxy. I appreciate the input.

It will be intereting to see what the insurance surveyor reccomends. The surveyor I personally hired said only re-torque and wrap the joint in glass. I agree with you guys that the keel should be dropped, but... convince the insurance company. Albeit in their best interest to do the proper repair now rather than do it again! If their surveyor doesn't make the reccomendation to drop the keel it might get ugly.

As a side note, the yard owner doesn't think the keel needs to be dropped, plus he says he's never worked for this insurance company (Travellers).

Could match up to an epic fight.