E29 sails for S.F. Bay cruising/racing

[SFWindChaser]

Hi all. I'm interested in a new or used set of sails for my E29. For one, I'm not sure what sail size and material I should consider for general S.F. Bay cruising and racing. I plan to race very casually, and I have a genoa furler on the boat, which I plan on using for racing as well. I know this is slower than a non-furling genoa, but that's why I said "casual racing." Also, I'm on a tight budget, so I am considering used sails. Anyone know of a good place to find them?

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Used/New Sails

Hi,
Your are looking at both ends of the spectrum at the same time. New sails, purpose built for your boat to the specs that you and a reputable sailmaker agree upon will give you all that you want in terms of performance. However, the question you have to ask yourself is this: Are you a good enough sailor to recognize the difference?
Seeing as this is your first post to the list, maybe you are a little green. We all were at one time, so that's no big thing. Unless the sails that came with your boat are totally blown out and are no better than rags, why don't you wait a while and sail with them until you are familiar with the boat and know where your limitations are. Racing is a fine art, but it requires good sailing ability, a good set of sails and a smart skipper to keep one from finishing back with the dogs and the cats. It takes a number of years to get good, because the variables are so immense. Good sailors are subtle and crafty. And they attract people of a like caliber to race with them. I'd suggest you give it some time, then go for the best sails you can afford. Buy from people who really know their trade, who will be sure of what you want and be prepared to pay for their services. North is a good loft all over the country. Service and a clear understanding of what your goals and limitations are will make you far happier than the best price.
I used to do a lot of racing. But I don't anymore. I think that age is part of the reason. I'm 72. But I find that I am just as happy sailing with a working jib these days. I leave my 155 gennie in a locker ashore. When I raced, which was for about 30 years, I finished in the money most of the time. Now, I just settle for a comfortable sail, good friends, average winds and a nice time. I've had the same boat since 1976. It will cruise fine and it's rather deadly in a race.
Racing is an art form and a worthy endeavor. Good luck.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[SFWindChaser]

used/new sails

Hi Morgan. Thanks for the reply. I have several years of experience racing dinghies when I was younger, but I am fairly green to the big boat experience. In my opionion however, racing dinghies will teach you more about sailing than racing a larger keelboat. My sails are in pretty sorry shape - I think they are original to the 1972 boat. The fabric is falling apart a little in some places and seams ripping. Most battens in the main are missing. My original plan was to keep these sails for a while, but I've already put so much time and energy into fixing up my boat that it bothers me to to have one of the most inportant things for performance, the sails, be in terrible shape. The boat is having trouble pointing well, and I think it's partially because of the sails. Anyways, even with my limited big boat experience, I think I can already notice the poor performance of my sails. Also, I plan to single-hand my boat out past the Golden Gate sometimes, and I don't fully trust the integrity of my current sails, but was thinking they would make a good backup set. I appreciate your thoughts though, and may end up taking your advice and keeping my ratty sails a long time to avoid expenses.

 

[Loren Beach]

From your assessment of the old sail cloth, your best bet may be to try for an economical upgrade. Buying a used sail has always seemed like kind of a crap shoot to me, but also check with all the local lofts for their unadvertised specials -- sails that were finished out to an incorrect size and can often be bought for half price. I know someone that got a terrific deal on such a sail from a major name loft... even with a slight recut the loft did to make it fit his boat it was still a huge discount off of a new price.

Get the word out to all the sailmakers and reps and perhaps think a little outside the triangle.

And, "just one thing"... look over the used sails list here: http://www.sailmaker.com/usedsail/index.htm
or: http://www.pineapplesails.com/usedsail/index.htm

Good luck,

Loren

 

[ChrisS]

I'd call around to a few lofts and see what they say about pricing. If you get the measurements, Minney's in Newport Beach may have something for you.

I have 110% jib, in the summer I reef the main often (sometimes to the second reef). Blown out sails will exacerbate any boat's bad habits; alternately, nice sails will make the experience all the better. Given all the ways to spend money when owning a boat, the return on new sails is pretty nice.

 

[SFWindChaser]

E27 sails

Thank you very much for the advice and seller suggestions Loren and Chris. As for Bay Area sail makers, does anyone have any particular suggestions, other than North and Neil Pryde (because I already know of them)? Also, I'm trying to figure out what information a sailmaker would want from me in terms of sizing - the measurements of my current sails? The measurement of my mast and boom? Furthermore, is Dacron generally the only economical choice?

Evan

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Hi WindChaser,

I see you would like to do the SSS trans pac. Good for you. Call Synthia Petroka at UK Halsey SF @ 1-510-523-3966.
She is my sail maker and I've done three SSS trans pacs and she has done one single handed one double handed and one or two crewed trans pacs. She is a great sail sales person ie gets the measurements spot on.
You may decide to get something else and that's ok it won't hurt to talk with her. By the way, she was the race chair for last years single handed trans pac so she can offer a lot more useful info than just sails.

Good Luck

Phil

 

[SFWindChaser]

E29 sails

Maybe the transpac one day Phil, but I'm a long way from that now and my boat is currently many a dollar underworthy of an ocean passage. Thank you very much for the sailmaker suggestion; I will at least call Synthia.

Evan

 

[Emerald]

I wouldn't rule out finding nice used sails. I made huge improvements over my old rags this way. I know that they're the opposite coast, but I know they actively ship sails all over the world, so give Bacon's a call. Their website is here:

http://baconsails.com/

You can search inventory based on dimension or boat type, and if you call and explain your goal, you'll get some good guidance.

Also, I don't have the first hand experience buying sails from them, but you've got Minney's down the coast from you:

http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Evan,
Well, you got a lot of advice, in addition to my own. With your dinghy background, you have enough salt to make good decisions. The sails are your engines. Better is worth the money. I've always thought that Dacron was better than the shiny stuff, because it gives you better value.
I sailed to Cuba five years ago. I was surprised that, while crossing the Straits of Florida in 20+ knots of wind, my working jib blew out. It was only 30 years old. Luckily for me, there was an ancient sailmaker in Cuba who fixed the thing for $30 US. We used it all the way home. Then I bought new. What was I thinking? There's a moral in that story. Hope you find it, because you sail in the SF Bay area.
May good fortune always be a shipmate.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[Seth]

Sails in SF

The good news is there are many good ones in town. The UK loft there has a good rep, and so does the Quantum loft and the Doyle loft. However-all of them have some dirty laundry as well- so be sure and spend some time them to see what kind of vibe you get from them to see if they are really interested in your business.

One of the non-major brands up there with a GREAT reputation is Pinapple Sails-I would give them a try as well..
Good luck

 

[ref_123]

Come to the Strictly Sail show

Just one word of advice: wait for a few weeks and come to the Strictly Sail at Jack London Square. You will meet all the reps there and can get a quote from every sailmaker. On top of that they typically will give you a 10% "show" discount. You can also attempt to convince them to give you a "cash-only" discount, i.e. to pay by check. When numbers are in, choose wisely . I remember Pineapple giving me a great quote but I also remember that the lady was looking at me as if I was crazy when I asked for a third reef in the main... So, UK Sails won .

I second Synthia Petroka from UK Sails - she listens well and typically does not "upsell" people. We made 3 sails with her already, always great service. Her partner Sylvain is great too.

As for the sails themselves, from the "green" point of view, you can't go wrong with cross-cut dacron... For the next better technology there is a serious price step-up.

Regards,
Stan

 

[Seth]

Good advice for sure!

Although, I must admit I have given "that look" when asked for a 3rd reef on more than one occasion-the reason being that experience tells us if you really want 3 reefs you should be considering a trysail or no mainsail at all-at least for most boats.

In my case, it was an effort to be ethical and not take someone's hard eraned $ for something they really do not (in all likelihood) need....

But, the customer is always right, so if they really wanted one I would do it...



S

 

[ref_123]

Trysail

Hi Seth,

you are the guru . Seriously, I greatly respect your opinion.

Regarding the "customer who is always right"... You know the old saying - the fact that one has a paranoya does not mean he is not being followed?

I know why 3rd reefs are bad. I may need it only once in a decade, but I want it to be an option - same as EPIRB: you know deep down you do not need this thing... and it's a waste of money... But when you do need it, you better have it! And 3rd reef is cheaper then a trysail anyway .

Note that I do not have EPIRB.

Just my $0.02... or, may be, 0.01 - corrected on recession .

Regards,
Stan

 

[SFWindChaser]

E29 sails

Wow. Thanks everyone for your input. I'm really glad I posted an inquiry. I think I will start by getting several quotes. Strictly Sail sounded like a good recommendation. I would wait for it, but I'd like to have my sails before racing season starts in early April if possible. Regarding the third reef/trysail issue, does adding a third reef significantly reduce the efficiency of the mainsail under normal conditions? Depending on expense, I might consider adding a third reef as it seems it might be a lot easier to set up in heavy conditions than a trysail. Alternatively, does anyone have any experience unfurling only a small amount of a furling jib in heavy weather without the use of a main or trysail at all? Does doing this generally make it too difficult to point in high winds?

Evan

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Hi Evan,

The third reef in the main makes it heavier and that makes it worse for light air. The first main I had UK make was a tape drive with a third reef. I wanted the third reef because the single handed trans pac required it, or a tri sail. After two trips to Hawaii and back with that main I had them make me a new tape drive main with only two reefs and I bought a tri sail from the sail warehouse, brand new and cheap. I never rigged my boat for the third reef. I can’t imagine that if I was in conditions that required a third reef I would put one in. I would just drop the main altogether and sail under storm jib alone. I have actually done this in races in the south Bay. Yes the boat does not point as high and it takes longer to come back up to weather after a tack. But besides that it’s not much slower than sailing with the main mostly backed and flogging around.
I would not recommend the third reef.
As for sailing with a partly furled jib. You will not be able to point much at all. You can run down wind with it but the shape of a partially furled jib is not good for going to weather.
Just as a side note. I put a brand new profurl roller furler on Sail a Vie. One size bigger than profurl recommended. I wore it out. It was complete trash in about five years and 17,000 miles. I decided to go back to hank on sails and have never looked back. I like hanks over something like a tuff luff because I’m a single hander and when you drop hank on sails they stay on the boat as opposed to going over the side. With roller furling you give up a lot of sail area to make room for the drum at the bottom and the swivel at the top. If you going racing this area is important. Just something to consider.


Phil

 

[Matey]

Sails for SF

Evan,

Lots of good opinions and advise .. Here's another 2 cents.

As for buying used..
I have had some sucess. With sails for One Design Racing, built at a quality loft (the UK loft of John Bartlett in Austin,Tx in my case) and purchased from an honest fellow racer with known use. Both the main & genoa worked out really well. But I've tryed some sight unseen purchases that were a poor choice. Someone earlier mentioned blown out sails that exagerate the boat's bad habits.. I think that is often what you end up with. It could be a crap shoot.

New sails..
There are an abundance of lofts, as you know. I personally would'nt buy from one that won't measure, fit to my boat and sail with me on the Bay or coast as part of the purchase. I think all the Bay Area Sailmakers will. They also are intimately familiar with the conditions in which you plan to sail. San Francisco's conditions are unique.
I have had great experiences with Robin at Hood Sails in Sausilito, Kame Richards at Pineapple in Alameda (my current sails) and Synthia as mentioned, at UK. That's where my next purchase(s) with come from. Are they the cheapest ? Likely not. Are they the safest, best perfoming sails I can get for my dollars spent by people who understand my venue ? My experience over the last 40 years has been yes. Will they last ?
I have a mainsail built by Kame at Pineapple that has a decent shape after 20 years. My good friend Charlie has sailed his E38 on the Bay four times a week for the last dozen years and his many sets of Hood sails have amazed me in their duability and performance.
As for sailing fast. Find a way to get on the water every week..and sail with anyone better than you, that you can.

Just some more opinion,
Greg

 

[SFWindChaser]

E29 sails

Thanks for the additional advice Phil and Greg. I will forget the third reef and possibly one day purchase a storm jib. I think I'm going to try to keep using the jib furling system since I love its convenience for single-handing and it's in good condition. Is it possible to use a non-furling sail on a boat with a furling system set up (but just not roll it)? What is the best option for a racing headsail while keeping the furler?

Evan

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

Yes, you can put up any sail that has a luff tape as long as the tape is the right size for the extrusion on the roller furler. But, unless you have a furler drum that splits in half and comes off, like I think Harkins do, there would be no point. If you can’t remove the drum then the sail still has to be small enough to fit within the hoist of the furler unit.
That’s fine, just keep your roller furler, there’s nothing wrong with that. If you did have one that split and you hoisted a sail up on it to race with, when you went to drop it after setting the spinnaker while single handed it “could” fall over board except at the head, tack and clues which presumably would still be attached to the boat. This ( sail in water) is a very s l o w setup. Ask me how I know. There are plenty of great race boats using roller furling.
Keep your furling unit and get a good sail or two for it. I would not recommend a padded luff either. Some sail makers will tell you this will allow you to roll up the sail part way and still have a good shape. I have had these sails and I didn’t like them.
If you decide to have one new head sail made I would recommend a 101%. This is what I use most often on the Bay. 101% because you might get a break on the price when it is bigger than 100%. Later when you can afford it and after you have a new main get your self a 125%. Nor Cal phrf gives you a 3 second a mile credit if you don’t use anything bigger than a 125%. On SF Bay single-handing it’s rare you would want to use anything much bigger so it’s a good deal. So, use smaller headsails while going to weather and learn how to use a spinnaker off the wind, this is the ticket.
Like Greg said, the key to sailing fast is to sail a lot, a whole lot and always try to sail faster, it’s always a race even when no one else is around.

Phil

 

[CaptDan]

[/QUOTE=SFWindChaser;46314
does anyone have any experience unfurling only a small amount of a furling jib in heavy weather without the use of a main or trysail at all? Does doing this generally make it too difficult to point in high winds?

Evan[/QUOTE]

Personal opinion, and based upon experience with two boats owned on SF Bay - yes.

Depending upon other factors like an adverse current, or a pressing need to return to one's berth in a timely fashion, even a reefed main/shortened head sail aren't enough without the aid of I. Ron Genny.:

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"