ericson 26 circumnavatigation!

[Martin King]

Geoff,
The Frog Princess is a cold molded custom boat. The
larger stretch version will be a glass production boat.

Moisture meter readings are valuable during the dry
out prior to barrier coating. When done over time,
they indicate relative dryness such as above and
below the waterline for example. In my view,
water intrusion into a FRP laminate is a problem
and should be arrested to get maximum hull
lifespan.

To bring this discussion back to the original point-
I feel that all the boat prep in the world is
worthless if the global strength of the hull is
compromised enough to fail when encountering
loads found offshore, and the damn thing sinks
right out from under you. Wouldn't you agree?

Regards,
Martin

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Absolutely, but the point I am suggesting is that maybe water absoption by itself is not the culprit. Maybe you need the additional factor of poor layup/materials which give rise to the formation of solvents which lead to structural failure. I am sure its a question of degree, but otherwise you would expect to see all sailboats "fail". FWIW, Yachtworld lists 565 fiberglass sailboats built before 1970. I doubt that many of them were barrier coated.


According to Pascoe:

"No, the moisture meter isn't going to tell you whether a boat is likely to get blisters or not simply because most boat hulls are saturated with water. The reason why some blister and some don't is basically a matter of quality materials and good techniques. Even when saturated with water, quality hulls are far less prone to blistering.

If a hull is 5 years old or more and has no blisters whatever, there's about a 95% probability that it never will. If it has even one blister, the chances are very high that it will continue. The more blisters it has in inverse proportion to it's age, the more likely that the problem will worsen at a progressive rate. Here's why."

http://www.marinesurvey.com/yacht/blisters.htm



The other probelm, which hasn't been addressed, is what about the bilge water, which is going to penetrate the critical area around the turn of the bilge? Wouldn't an exterior barrier coat have the effect of keeping this moisture in the fiberglass when the boat is out of the water and otherwise drying out? For example, see this site:

http://marinesurvey.com/yacht/WetLaminate.htm

http://www.marinesurvey.com/yacht/BlisterRepairFail.htm

If I can get my hands on a moisture meter, maybe it would be worthwhile to check readings over the winter to see if there is a decrease (although they are apparently tricky to use).

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/moisturemeters.htm

 

[escapade]

Geoff;
You are correct in your observation that a moisture meter only gives you a realitive reading on the moisture content of your lay-up. As far as my experience goes I have found that some boats are prone to blister, but they ALL take on moisture. Martin's position, which I am in total support of is that weather you have visible blisters or not, moisture in the laminate is not a good thing. Jan Gougeon (West System Epoxys) stress to all of us here in Bay City, Mi. that a dry bilge is VERY important as well as drying the laminate before the barrier coat is applied.
That being said,the bottom line is you need to keep the outside water out, and the bilge's as dry as humanly posible. BTW I sail in fresh water (Great Lakes) and the boat is stored inside for the off season month's. This or a GOOD cover that keeps the water out of the bilge, I believe, is something often overlooked by boat owners. There are a lot of so called "expert opinions" on osmotic blistering but few backed up by actual testing and field experience. I have talked at length with the folks at Gougeon Bros. and also done quite a bit of research on my own and have found that the G.B. publication on osmosis is probably as concise a brief overview of the causes & repair methods as you will find anywhere. Weather or not you need to barrier coat your boat is obviously up to you, but before I did anything I would survey the hull w/moisture meter & sound it with a mallet to check for delamination. This will tell you exactly where you really are at, something that all the printed words cannot do. We can only speculate. At this point we have probably confused/scared quite a few people but a hull failure at sea scares me the most!
Sail fast Bud E34 "Escapade"

 

[Seth]

Moisture

Many of my clients keep a dehumidifier going in the off-season, and actually keep it going during the sailing season-just plug it in when you tie up at the dock (unless you are on a can!).

There is a product which has a VERY low power draw and is gold colored rod which also keeps the interior dry..If anyone knows what these are really called I would like to know. The DO work, though!

Seth

 

[Geoff Johnson]

You're right, there's a lot of confusing an contradictory information so I'm going to take Martin's advice and not worry about it (particularly as I have no plans to go to sea in my boat). I guess the future lies with the epoxy boats like the Tartan and the C&C. As for the bilge, I have a very expensive custom cover, but the water enters from inside the mast (a subject discussed at length on the Ericson forums) so water in the bilge is just an immutable fact of life.

PS, to respond to Seth, I am on a mooring.

 

[Martin King]

Well, we don't want to freak anybody out-just
get out some good info on the subject. If this
subject is of interest, the GB booklet has very
good info backed up by research and comprehensive
testing. I highly recommend it if you want to stay
informed.

Martin

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Here's a link:

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/epoxyworks/17/repairinggelcoat.html

 

[SingPilot]

Rod dehumidifier

It's called a "GoldenRod"

West used to carry them, I know a google search will get you to their site.

 

[Seth]

Correct

Thanks-it was on the tip of my tongue!

 

[Bob in Va]

More on blisters

While we are on the topic of blister repair, I'll offer a couple of observations for those who are considering doing their own blister repair:
1. Most authorities say to identify and mark blisters shortly after the boat is pulled - that they tend to shrink after the boat has been out of the water a while. I believe this is true for most blisters. However...
2. I have seen blisters that weren't obvious when the boat was pulled show up a week or more later. I think you need to check for and mark blisters several times to do a thorough job.
3. A real good way to see blisters is to look for them at night by shining a flashlight obliquely across the bottom - or even better, car headlights. They become very obvious using this method.
4. I once used a sandblaster to cut out the many blisters on my boat's hull. It worked, but was very time consuming and the sand didn't taste too good. A Dremel-type high speed cutter, carefully wielded, works better and much quicker.
5. Once the blister is cut out, you need to let the area dry as much as possible - just because you saw liquid come out doesn't mean it is completely dry.

 

[refugee]

Don't do it

While circumnavigating conjures up pleasant images of exotic places and spirited adventure, I for one cannot offer you any advice but the obvious: Don't do it in this boat, don't do it without at least some offshore experience in a force 6 or better blow, don't do it unless you're willing to feed yourself to the fishes.

Sorry if this sounds negative. I know you're looking for positive advice; what could be more positive than saving your life?

If you want to circumnavigate, I and others applaud that idea. But just like you wouldn't go ice climbing in tennis shoes, you shouldn't take on the briny deep without doing what you logically can to survive. This boat is technically capable of circumnavigating, but it'll need the weather gods to smile continuously. What do you think the chances of that are, on a trip around the globe? Hell, that doesn't even happen to me during a 2-hour race!

So, positive advice: 1. Get an offshore capable boat. You're going to live on it for years. If there is a sailing community in your area, talk to people who have offshore experience about what sort of boat you'll need. 2. Get experience offshore. Crew, to start, on a few offshore races or cruises. 3. With this experience fresh in your mind, equip your properly capable boat to suit your needs. 4. Take your boat for a week's test drive offshore to see what you forgot or what needs changing. 5. Don't expect to do this cheap. 6. And finally, if you insist on going in this boat, please DO NOT talk anyone else into going with you.

 

[Seth]

The truth

Brutal, but true. Refugee said what most of us were thinking: Wrong boat, wrong person. This is not to say you absolutely can't do it, but the boat would require massive upgrades-which would cost a lot more than buying a more suitable boat. That is point one. Point two is also true: Combining a marginal boat with an inexperienced sailor is an unhealthy combination.

If you really want this adventure, hookup with someone to share the experience with and go partners on a bigger, more suitable boat.

I would bet many of us who did not come out and say all this were thinking that the most likely scenario is you would get started, get maybe to the West Indies, have a "come to jesus" moment, stay there and enjoy the Islands, or realize the folly and come home.

Maybe your best bet is to start small- plan a Bahama trip or a trip down the coast of Mexico (depending on what coast you are on). Ease into it and see if it really for you. Being offshore in a small boat for weeks on end is not for everyone-

Good luck!

 

[Loren Beach]

On the size issue, alone....

Speaking of seaworthyness related to boat size...
Note that the Albin Vega 27 or Pacific Seacraft 20, 25, or 27, and Haida 26 are in this size range, as is the famous Contessa 26.
All have made notable (and multiple) ocean crossings.
I would agree that most production boats would need beefing up and that this would be very labor-intensive, and perhaps cost-prohibitive.

Hey, how many of you remember the two young guys that took an Islander 24 from California to HI in the 70's? The write up told of their strengthening the chainplates and adding a plywood dodger. They had no problems, but did report that they accumulated a lot of bruises!

The Mk1 E-26 appears to be a tough little pocket cruiser, but perhaps not a top choice for a circumnavigation.
OTOH, I have only coastal passages for experience.. so I am not very qualified to comment!


Best,
Loren in PDX

ps: I did transit the Washington coast (48 hours) in my old Niagara 26... in good weather...

 

[Martin King]

Size matters,

Loren,

We know a guy who kayaked from San Diego to
Hawaii! Granted, it was a big kayak but still.....

What would be your minimum boat length for offshore
passages?


Martin

 

[Seth]

Good points, but

Loren makes good points as usual, and the I 24 trip he refers to was a downwind leg-

Of course many small boats have made successful passages-some even did it with very inexperienced crew-that does make it a good idea.

I like to make the comparisons to the old Colin Archer boats-which led to the Westsail 32-how so many people thought because Slocum sailed a similar design it must be a good seaworthy boat-NOT!
\
I think Slocum made it IN SPITE of the boat-not because of it. A slow boat that won't go to weather is not my idea of "seaworthy". Yes, people has made big passages-so what?

So, just because little boats have made the trip, there are better and safer ways to do it.

My 2 cents for today! Had a rough week...

 

[Jim Payton]

OK here's my opinion, for what its worth. The Bahaha that leaves from San Diego to Cabo usually around Holoween each year has a variety of boats. According to "Lattitude 38" the recomended minimum size boat is 30 feet. Sounds good to me. I just looked at an article in "Lattitude" this month that lists all the small boats that have made the sail in the Bahaha over the past 11 years. In the early years there were a number of 26 and 27 foot boats. Last year there was only one boat less than 30 foot.
Since many newbies use Bahaha as a test run for starting their adventure in cruising life and the trend over the years has been to go to 30 feet or larger I would say, "sounds good to me!"

 

[Chad and Sandy]

E26 circumnavigation

Well Brien, It's been over two years since you posted your desire to circumnavigate this troubled world. I was just woundering how far you have gotten on your project. A small boat like that will still take much time to strengthen and to fit out and much planning and forethought. Let us know how it is going.

 

[Seth]

Circumnavigating

If have not been following this, you MUST check out the story of Roslin Forrest, a 23 year old girl from Vancouver who recently set out to become the youngest woman to go 'round solo nonstop-ala Ellen MacArthur.

She made it as far as San Francisco (about 10 days, I think), realized she was in WAY over her head, and quit.

It is facscinating becase she raised 100K from a sponsor, had the "support" team ashore, and yet she was hugely unqualified and unprepared-in the extreme!

There is a lot of the story written and commented on in sailinganarchy.com (a great site for irreverent sailing news), and her own site www.roslinforrest.com. Her site was changed today from a "watch me sail" story to a "how I failed" story.

There are a lot of lessons here-some funny, some sad. Shame on her "team" for even letting her go.

After a year of planning and rebuilding and modifying a production Columbia 34 (60's style), she lasted 10 days!

She learned the hard way what a truly serious undertaking this really is, and this should be required reading for those considering a trip like this..

As always, "Good Times"

Seth

 

[Mike.Gritten]

Roslin Forrest

I am jumping in on this thread because I actually know Roslin. She has been working part-time at the local West Marine store here in Vancouver. It was only recently that I learned of her quest to circumnavigate. I can tell you that she is not without experience. She has sailed the South Pacific from Mexico to New Zealand as crew on other small sailboats. (She may have gone as far as Oz. I just can't remember specifics.) As I remember, she "hitched" rides on a variety of boats in exchange for crewing. The point I'm making is that she had lots of offshore experience, just has NO solo offshore experience on this boat. She has done virtually the entire refit herself, using professional help where funds allowed. I know that she must be devastated with having to give up.

 

[Seth]

Roslin

Thanks for the comments Mike! I appreciate your point of view, and the fact that you know her. I was fortunate enough to correspond with her mother a few times during this thing as well.

You are correct that she hitched accross the ocean, and has some miles behind her-but one has to wonder what she learned on those trips.

The fact that once out in the ocean, she was faced with trying to remember how to REEF THE MAINSAIL says volumes. It would be hard to say this indicates anything faintly resembling real offshore experience...

Regardless of what she claims to have done in the past as qualifications, her own admissions of the reefing question, the jib sheets, halyard problems and the furling line being too short all are clear evidence she was completely unprepared. In fact, she admits this now.

Also the fact (and it IS a fact) that she did ZERO testing or shakedown cruises is a further indictment of both her thought process, planning, and ability-not to mention the people who should have known better-her shore crew!

My point here is that we need to call a spade a spade. I also feel for her and the loss of her dream, but we are all very lucky that this thing ended early safely-it was a recipe for disaster.

I have written here many times that I support short handed and singlehanded offshore sailing, but I do not support such voyages by the inexperienced and unprepared, and I worry that people like this will give other people who have this dream the idea that it is as simple as she seems to have thought it would be.

Sorry if I sound harsh, Mike-this story struck a cord with me, and although I am rarely opinionated (haha), I just had to weigh in on this one!

Have fun and be safe!