Fuel Cell Technology

[gareth harris]

One of the things you see from time to time in boating papers is emerging technology for sailboat power using fuel cells. As far as I can figure out from an internet search, it will be several years before they are available for repowers on an affordable basis. Does anyone know anything more specific - have any companies made any projections on them coming onto the general market? And if so, at what order of magnitude of price?
I currently have not engine, but I will not spend thousands on a new diesel if there is a much better technology just around the corner.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[chrism]

Solomon Technologies has teamed up with Catalina...
http://www.technipowersystems.com/marine-solutions-overview

I doubt that it will be better than a diesel within the next ten years, but then again, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

 

[Chris Miller]

I'd be fine with it as generator...

Couldn't we just use the technology to power up our batteries as a generator? I'm not too familiar with the tech, but seems like a great thing for sailors if it's not too big. Good idea, Gareth!
Chris

 

[Mark F]

Here are a couple of other electric auxiliary options. You could go this route (electric w/ batteries) then when the fuel cell technology becomes practical switch out the batteries for the fuel cell.

http://www.ozecodrive.com/OZecoDrive/Eng/IndexOZecoDriveEng.html

http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf

I’ve got a 105# thrust trolling motor (36 volt) on my E23 and love it. Always starts, no fumes, no noise and the batteries which are most of the weight are low and farther forward than an outboard hanging off of the stern.

Mark

 

[Randy Rutledge]

fuelcell????

Sounds like you have or had a inboard, I had thought about an electric golfcart motor coupled to the propshaft on my E-29 if I could not revive the A4 (would be a silent partner in a race also, just kidding). This would require 6 6V batteries but would get you in and out of the slip and work well for no wind returns of reasonable distance. On a lake this would be OK I wouldn't want to be in heavy waves with this as power. If you have a gen set you could recharge as you go.

I also hear years ago they sailed without motors, probably a bad rumor.

Randy

 

[u079721]

Fascinating technology

I am fascinated by this technology, especially the developments being offered by Catalina.

BUT, my impression is that this is still not quite "ready for prime time" yet. Last time I check the range was still limited to a couple of hours of motoring, which would be fine for getting out to the bouys for a race or a daysail, but hardly adequate for cruising.

I had a friend who was VERY excited about this technology. He was telling everyone that you would power the boat with an electic motor with the electicity that came from a fuel cell powered by hydrogen that was produced by electrolysis of water using electicity that came from the alternator that would run off the engine that was powered by the electicity that came from from the fuel cell that used hydrogen that was produced by the electolysis of water using the electicity that came from the alternator..........

I gently tried to explain that it was a bit more complicated than that, and that the system actually required input from a solar panel, or shoreside power, or a wind generator, or a prop driven generator.....but I gave up.

 

[Bob in Va]

The Romans had 'em

They used a system involving inputs of atmospheric oxygen as well as carefully selected hydrocarbons, which were then converted in the cells into motion and heat. There was some waste produced, but back then holding tanks were not required. When they wore out, they were scrapped and new units were substituted, since replacements were very cheap and in plentiful supply . They were called 'galley slaves.'

 

[clayton]

As a parallel to this, there is a paragraph long description and photo on p.84 in the September issue of Sail magazine of a 'MaxPower' fuel cell that runs on methanol to produce electricity for boat electrical needs (not propulsion).

Clayton

 

[Loren Beach]

Diesel Electric idea in use

http://huberman.org/sailboat/
Click on Propulsion and see what this actual in-use boat is using for a diesel-electric system with prop generation. Word around here is that he will never actually recover the additional cost of the system... but that he knew that going in and wanted to use the technology anyway.
I have been aboard and it is one beautiful boat, and very fast under sail.
Loren

 

[Randy Rutledge]

web site pictures of power system

Yeah! looks like what I was planning with the golfcart motor and batteries, well almost.

 

[gareth harris]

Having chased up those leads, these seem to be the options:

1. An electric engine, along the lines of the solomon technologies that Loren gave the link to, or the ozeco drive that Mark gave the link to. This would allow conversion to hydrogen cell fuel storage sometime down the road, most likely in the 5 year time frame. In the mean time, although generation from the prop under sail is an option, to carry enough batteries to motor all day into a breeze is not practical, so some kind of generation system would be needed, the overall cost probably more than diesel.

2. In a year or so, an engine that burns hydrogen may be on the market. I could not get a price projection, but the feeling was it would be comparable to a new diesel. Storing the hydrogen would be safer than propane, although there would still be safety concerns. The hydrogen could be created on board from energy generated by the prop under sail, or solar cells or a wind mill, so there would be no need to pull in to port for fuel, the system would also have to create very pure water, so the system would work very well for cruisers. Much quieter and cleaner than diesel.
There is potential for using this hydrogen for the stove, but nothing is on the market now - burning hydrogen is nigh impossible to see in daylight (one of the problems they had on Apollo 1) and there are not yet any safe systems for enclosed spaces in production.

3. The best solution, an electric motor powered using hydrogen fuel cell energy storage which regenerates through the prop under sail, with no need for batteries. Available now, price $300000.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[CaptnNero]

Nigel Calder's experiment

Pushing this thread a bit, there was an article in March '06 Sail by Nigel Calder. See page 98, "Hybrid Power". He's equipped his new Malo 45 (what the heck is a Malo anyway ?) with diesel-electric propulsion. He's been impressed with some diesel electric conversions that he's seen and breaks it down into some nice bullets. The major heavy engineering players in the small cruise boat diesel electric market are Glacier Bay (OSSA POWERLITE), Fisher Panda (the WhisperProp), and Solomon Technologies (the Electric Wheel). Glacier Bay and Fischer Panda are doing some expanded field testing on production boats this year in fact. Solomon has lost it's founders by some means and borrowed money to sue Toyota for patent infringement on it's hybrids in January of this year.

When I checked Solomon last year they wanted way over $30K to convert a 30 plus foot vessel. Get outta here ! They add a dozen AGM batteries (heavy!) and those things aren't going to last nearly as long as a diesel engine. Just think about the replacement cost after 500 cycles even if you take good care of them. They supposedly do include a properly sized generator for sustaining cruise speed.

There are many other lightweights in this market, including Thoosa, but they are offering little more than what amounts to a battle-bot type DC electric motor with a bunch of batteries. Practically speaking, you can't afford to carry enough batteries to propel the boat fast more than an hour or two and even at that short time frame the sailing performance will suffer from the extra weight.

To some extent it is possible to tune the battery pack capacity to your typical motoring needs, say in and out of the anchorage. However, if you're twenty miles away from the slip and are becalmed, you'll need a diesel generator almost as big as your old diesel direct drive in order to sustain a respectable cruise speed.

Another issue that quickly comes into play with any electric propulsion is the fundamental design incentive to use high voltage, say 120-800 volts as hybrid electric cars do for the same efficiency reason. Personally I'm not crazy about experimenting on my boat with high voltage. It may be viable but those voltages are getting beyond the experience and building guidlines for small vessels. The industry and marketplace need to sort this out and find out the right way to do it.

I would forget about straight hydrogen systems on boats for many years to come. It would be a risky experiment, not exactly like the Hindenburg but similar enough none the less. Need I say more ? Daimler-Chrysler and GM have bet the farm on fuel cell technologies for cars. If something good is going to happen with fuel cells and/or hydrogen, I think we will see it there in several more years at least or perhaps the further demise of both companies. They've hired some third company in Germany to work it out.

There are some production methanol powered fuel cells available. They are expensive though and run on some highly pure and hard to get and expensive methanol. Their output is very low compared to any kind of propulsion demands. They are suitable for battery charging for house demands for a few days between fuelings. I think there was an article in one of the DIY type magazines this last winter about one used by a cruising couple.

Someone mentioned using a golf cart motor and some batteries. Believe it or not there is a fellow on our pier with about a 35 foot sailboat. When the engine died, he removed it and put in a 36volt golf cart motor with six 6volt golf cart batteries. He now gets a whopping 2 knots under power ! He has also been seen being towed in from depleted batteries. I have also seen boats passing him in our rather restricted harbor entrance channel. I looked into this and their are some substantially larger golf cart motors that would probably get him cruise speed for a few hundred bucks more, but then you need more batteries too. But that brings me back to the need for a big fat generator. Oh well, dream on...

 

[rwthomas1]

Allow me to point this out:
Take your new "hybrid" all-electric whiz-bang boat out for a long cruise. Get caught in an unexpected/unforcasted/unavoidable storm. Get knocked down, take on a load of nice salty seawater. How about a lightning strike? Poof, you're screwed. Better yet, wait 10 or 20 years and think how tough it will be to work on all that "outdated" tech, etc.

Diesels are way easier. Easier to fix. Easier to jury rig to run after a serious problem like a knockdown, lightning strike, etc. Why not buy a nice new diesel or even cheaper but a longblock rebuild in. Learn how to make biodiesel if you want to to the eco-thing.

RT

 

[CaptnNero]

Diesels chug on

Allow me to point this out:
Take your new "hybrid" all-electric whiz-bang boat out for a long cruise. Get caught in an unexpected/unforcasted/unavoidable storm. Get knocked down, take on a load of nice salty seawater. How about a lightning strike? Poof, you're screwed. Better yet, wait 10 or 20 years and think how tough it will be to work on all that "outdated" tech, etc.

Diesels are way easier. Easier to fix. Easier to jury rig to run after a serious problem like a knockdown, lightning strike, etc. Why not buy a nice new diesel or even cheaper but a longblock rebuild in. Learn how to make biodiesel if you want to to the eco-thing.

RT

Indeed Rob, we once had a boat take a direct lightning strike undeway. VHF aerial was vaporized, almost all electronics arced, burned out, dead, the bilge pump found its own ground and ran on and on. Yet the diesel chugged on without skipping a beat. Fortunately the alternator was ok.

I heard a similar story about a fancy Bristol 40-something that took a hit offshore and lost everything but the diesel itself.