How fast is too fast?

[Loren Beach]

Many sailboats will lose rudder 'grip' on the water at steeper heel angles, and then there is the change in water plane that happens. Rounding up or even an unplanned tack can result from a puff that puts the rail under. I agree that 15 degrees is a good practical max.

Aside: a lot of newer designs with a huge and wide stern section - giving a large "bedroom" aft - have had to go to twin rudders in order to restore control to the boat that was badly compromised by the hull shape that helped sell those hulls to non sailors. And then, the builders used a bucket of marketing dollars to bamboozle buyers into believing that the resulting expensive rudder system made the design superior to earlier sailing designs. (sigh...)

 

[Christian Williams]

Also, it is almost always the mainsail that is overtrimmed. Especially when reaching, ease or reef the main when steering becomes effortful.

 

[Bolo]

You can say that boat control is far more important than a "speed limit". Keeping excessive heel angles down by way of reefing and traveler control keep a boat on track and reducing weather helm. Doesn't matter how fast you can go if you're uncontrollably rounding up with the rail constantly in the water. Years ago when I first got into sailing, even after taking ASA classes, I rarely reefing and suffered for it. Once, on my previous boat a Hunter 285, I broached so bad in a stiff wind that I almost ran into a boat sailing nearby. Control is the key and with that also comes your best speed, IMO.

 

[LameBMX]

I don't recall noting the heel angle at the time, it was definitely not extreme. it wasn't rails near water (except the waves after i dropped the sails) or anything. I sail for virtually 0 helm effort because I am lazy and like to watch the boat sail itself. If the weight of the disengaged autopilot cannot hold back the rounding force left that the headsail don't cancel out, its time to work on my sail trim. One thing I have noted and need to work on, is I normally cannot find a nice trim that doesn't have the headsail ever so slightly back winding the main.

Edit: i do shoot to have to occasionally correct to point back down off the wind. I would rather a random gust round me up than run me downwind.

 

[Christian Williams]

headsail ever so slightly back winding the main.

Sounds about right.

 

[jtsai]

Any chance you can point me to an older member to discuss this "speed limit"? I could have swore I lost my rudder the other evening during a good run of sailing in decent winds. I was unable to steer, but could trim the sails to control direction a bit. Turned out when I stopped, while bobbing about in the waves, i was able to visibly see the rudder when the aft rose on waves, and confirm it still worked. Rudder continued to work under motor and reefed sails (sun was setting at this point) until i got back to the dock the next morning.

Think this way: the rudder movements do not "steer" the boat, it creates "drag" that encourages the boat toward the direction with more drag. When the relatively small drag-induced force is overwhelmed by the sail power, then you lose rudder control. Try to drop the traveler to leeward to spill force from the main sail as a start to gain rudder control.

Place a tape on the wheel spoke to mark the position when rudder is centered and avoid exaggerated use of rudder.

 

[supersailor]

Burying the rail is slow! Drag goes up exponentially. You have to play with your boat in higher winds to know what works best. I found on the 34 that dropping the main and running under jib only in over 18 knots is just as fast and a lot more fun than running under a jib and two reefs. Each boat is different, so you have to experiment.

 

[LameBMX]

Think this way: the rudder movements do not "steer" the boat, it creates "drag" that encourages the boat toward the direction with more drag. When the relatively small drag-induced force is overwhelmed by the sail power, then you lose rudder control. Try to drop the traveler to leeward to spill force from the main sail as a start to gain rudder control.

Place a tape on the wheel spoke to mark the position when rudder is centered and avoid exaggerated use of rudder.

The wheel is marked between the spokes for center, oddly enough the spoke starboard of center offsets the motor to go in a straight line in calm waters. I am really feeling that overwhelming is what happened. I need to find/make a better setup for these traveler cleats. They are pretty much useless for single handing as they are so flat to the cockpit seats. Almost have to go ahead of wheel and poke the sheets into the cleat with your finger to ensure it engages. A few degrees of kick up would make a world of difference. Some sort of redirect would enable proper cushioned seats.

 

[Christian Williams]

Eyeball your rudder position at the dock. The center mark on the wheel often becomes incorrect for various reasons.

Got a photo of your traveler cleats (cams?}. Adjustment is often possible.

And of course, traveler position is a subtlety of mainsail trim. When heeling is excessive, luffing the main or reefing is required.

Most casual sailors reef far too late in the game. Typical Ericsons start to ask for mainsail reef at 17 knots apparent, to windward. That's just lots of whitecaps on a nice day. Old sails greatly worsen the situation and call for even earlier reefing.

It is really apparent, when sailing behind another boat, to see old bagged-out sails overtrimmed, the boat on its ear, sagging to leeward , throwing spray from its bow and with the crew grinning happily and feeling fast

 

[Stuphoto]

I'd very much recommend AGAINST this. One reason is the old "If it isn't broke then don't fix it." Fiberglass can flex repeatedly without hazard.

The bigger reason to me is the potential for the foam to do extreme damage. These boats have been working the hull-liner adhesive for decades and there is so much square footage to press against that I could easily see the expanding foam break adhesive hull-liner bonds then push the liner and hull apart.

I look at it from another viewpoint,
I have seen several people using that spray foam in just about anything you can imagine.

I know the companies all claim their products don't absorb water, however when you look at it a year or more later it's always soaked.

Besides I think our boats were designed for all the water to drain past the liner and into the bilge.
Adding the foam would trap it.

There are of course ways to stiffen our boats, such as replace the bulkheads with something thicker and more Ridgid.
However our boats were also designed with a certain amount of flex in mind.

 

[Kenneth K]

So I pulled the speed through water gauge from the pod and replaced it with the Raymarine p70s control head which just fit.

Nice job. I like the old white instrument "pods." I modified one of mine to take an I-40 display when replacing my depth gauge.




I could use a third one like you have. In fact, if anyone has an extra one, I'll make them an offer on it.

 

[LameBMX]

Eyeball your rudder position at the dock. The center mark on the wheel often becomes incorrect for various reasons.

Did that on the water, center mark is correct and visually confirmed with healthy chunk of rudder out of the water.

Got a photo of your traveler cleats (cams?}. Adjustment is often possible.

Attached. Barely visible. Cockpit seats mashes right into the cam cleats. Rescued that bird from drowning, it was so thankful it pooped on my boat and then my hand.

the boat on its ear, sagging to leeward

I have no clue what this means lol.

 

[Bepi]

Did that on the water, center mark is correct and visually confirmed with healthy chunk of rudder out of the water.



Attached. Barely visible. Cockpit seats mashes right into the cam cleats. Rescued that bird from drowning, it was so thankful it pooped on my boat and then my hand.
View attachment 43521



I have no clue what this means lol.

On it's ear, the boat is leaning over a lot, Windward is where the wind is hitting you. Leeward is the other side.

 

[Bolo]

Nice job. I like the old white instrument "pods." I modified one of mine to take an I-40 display when replacing my depth gauge.


View attachment 43520

I could use a third one like you have. In fact, if anyone has an extra one, I'll make them an offer on it.

I like the “classic“ look of the pods too. So much so that a few years back I had a local shop repair the binnacle and pods. There is a great source near me call Bacon Sails who deal with used sailing gear, bits and pieces. It’s a consignment shop. I’ll keep a look out when I’m there next to see if they have some of the same pods. They ship used stuff out all the time.

 

[supersailor]

When it comes to speed limits, five years ago in November I decided to take a cruise in November when five days of sun was projected. I had a great sail from Port Angeles across the straights to Friday Harbor arriving well after dark. the log in the water avoidance systems were successful. The next morning, I left Friday Harbor in eight knots of wind. halfway out the wind increased to 16 knots. At the turning point to go hard on the wind, it was twenty-three. Being incredibly bright, I pressed on. easing over the top of the island, it had increased to thirty- seven or eight. Over the top it increased to the forties. Great position. On a lee shore in storm force winds. Terra Nova had a patch of a jib up on a beam reach with the rail buried and averaged 11.9 knots. I didn't die from the adrenalin hit but it was close. There is more to that story, and it is on a Power Point I posted to the site.

The point if this windy discussion is that don't think your boat is limited to six knots.

 

[Christian Williams]

LameBMX (this is a bike term?), I see you have a cockpit traveler. Maybe somebody has improved the leads and can help.

By "sagging to leeward" I just meant leeway, the side-slipping that results from too much heel and rudder angle.

 

[LameBMX]

LameBMX (this is a bike term?), I see you have a cockpit traveler. Maybe somebody has improved the leads and can help.

By "sagging to leeward" I just meant leeway, the side-slipping that results from too much heel and rudder angle.

Yes, I spent most of my life exploring land on little kids bikes. travelling to different cities and cruising around. Failed at renting a power boat for a weekend by buying a sailboat. Enjoying the journey(s) that has set me off on. Good bonus is I can rebuild winches in my sleep, as they are functionally the same as cassette hubs except less bloody if you slack on maintenance.

That makes sense about sagging to leeward. I'll make sure to pay more attention if I am yawing (normally a sign my sails aren't trimmed right and I need to pay attention to how far I have moved the wheel), slipping, or both. Most of my sailing winds up around 10-15 degrees. As mentioned, not trying to race or heel the boat, just learning to get these sails cooperating with the with the wind, without the feedback a tiller gave me.

 

[bgary]

I need to find/make a better setup for these traveler cleats. They are pretty much useless for single handing as they are so flat to the cockpit seats.

One alternative approach is what racers call "vang sheeting". The idea is to have a boom vang that you can adjust to have the shape you want in the mainsail.... and then from there, easing the mainsheet will let the main "out" without letting it rise. It's quick and easy and you never have to touch the traveler.

It does require a boom vang that is strong and easy to adjust, but... that might be an easier project than figuring out a better setup for the traveler cleats.

 

[Mark F]

A few years ago, I decided my E27 wasn't heavy enough and added paneling and enclosed storage to the vee berth. The liner was quite loose (not attached to the hull) and I wanted a more stable surface to attach the mahogany. I drilled a few holes in the liner with a 3/4" forstner bit maybe 5 per side. Then squirted in a little construction adhesive in each of the holes that effectively created flexible standoffs. After finishing the project and sailing in the typical wind chop waters on the outside (Santa Cruz) I realized the sound that I thought was oil-canning from the front of the boat was gone. I think what happens in the case of the E27 (likely other 70's vintage Ericsons) is the liner slams on the hull when crashing through waves.

 

[Bepi]

A few years ago, I decided my E27 wasn't heavy enough and added paneling and enclosed storage to the vee berth. The liner was quite loose (not attached to the hull) and I wanted a more stable surface to attach the mahogany. I drilled a few holes in the liner with a 3/4" forstner bit maybe 5 per side. Then squirted in a little construction adhesive in each of the holes that effectively created flexible standoffs. After finishing the project and sailing in the typical wind chop waters on the outside (Santa Cruz) I realized the sound that I thought was oil-canning from the front of the boat was gone. I think what happens in the case of the E27 (likely other 70's vintage Ericsons) is the liner slams on the hull when crashing through waves.

Liner? There is no sign of any liner anywhere on my 27, all I see is heavy weave fiberglass. I wonder if mine was removed in a 2004 refit, or did all 27s have liners?