New owners - water in keel underneath bilge

[Jaybee]

Jaybee, congrats on the new boat! Post up some photos of her!

As with all newly purchased used boats you have also purchased the previous owners neglected maintenance items. This is nothing to be disconcerted about and is totally normal. We have all been there. You will find that most of the problems you will encounter have already been solved and documented by others on this site, and if not you will get lots of advice on what to do.

For the issue at hand, I don’t have any photos but I do get some water in that same location. I believe on mine (later 1984 model hull 651 with cabin top traveler should be the same as yours) there is a small round hole in the TAFG (tri axial force grid) to access that keel bolt. Looks like someone enlarged that hole for better access. I use a turkey baster (thanks to Loren Beach for that tip!) to remove water from this area. I have also installed weatherstripping on the cockpit lockers. I believe most of my water ingress is from the dorades on the stern or from replacing the knot meter paddle wheel. I don’t get much water in general and it’s mostly in the winter when it rains. Agree you should find out if it’s salt water. If not it’s probably not worth worrying too much about, or simply re-plumbing the bilge pump as per Franks suggestion.

I’m not sure any additional work is needed to fix that bilge area. You say you have a fiberglass sole? Do you have photos of it? That sounds different than mine which is 1/4 inch teak and holly plywood over the TAFG. Here is what the TAFG looks like underneath the teak and holly plywood. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/e30-tafg-structure.14448/

Also it looks like you may have had some oil or diesel in the bilge at one time. Mine was the same way when I got it (leaking diesel tank). Suggest you add some degreaser to the bilge and sail around a bit. Turn the bilge pump off before hand so you don’t end up pumping the resulting gunk into open water. Then pump it into a container and wipe everything down. Might take a couple tries but it really helps for reducing bilge smells and finding stuff that drops into it.

Congrats again and enjoy the process of finding all these little problems!

My floor looks like yours does, I reckon what I've been referring to as the sole is in fact the TAFG - still learning here! I just got down perusing the owner's manual getting more familiar with the Ericson.

Do you happen to have a picture of what your engine cover/stair set up looks like?

 

[bigd14]

My floor looks like yours does, I reckon what I've been referring to as the sole is in fact the TAFG - still learning here! I just got down perusing the owner's manual getting more familiar with the Ericson.

Do you happen to have a picture of what your engine cover/stair set up looks like?

Here is what I could find, and a shot of the mostly finished sole over the TAFG.

 

[Jaybee]

Here is what I could find, and a shot of the mostly finished sole over the TAFG.

View attachment 43795
View attachment 43797
View attachment 43799

That looks good !

Interesting, I was asking because I downloaded the brochure from this website and it had a completely different doghouse on the engine and a totally different stair configuration. My stairs look like your stairs and it's a little tight to get past the stairs into the quarter berth/nav station. The one in the picture from the brochure(doghouse) is squared off and as tall as the kitchen counter. My doghouse is angled like yours is however mine does not have an access door, the whole thing gets pulled off if you need to get in there.

Thank you very much !

PS - edit, is that your A/C panel next to the battery switch?

 

[bigd14]

My engine cover pulls off as a unit like yours does, no door. The brochure is of the earlier generation of 30+. In mid-1984 they updated the deck and interior to match their newer model boats. Of the 1984 boats it looks like Dave G has the earlier version and Frank and you and I have the updated version. The hull is the same. The earlier generation has a bridge-deck traveler and squared off seats in the cockpit and lots more teak veneer surfaces in the interior (and apparently 10 keel bolts as opposed to 7!).

A previous owner located the AC panel next to the battery switch, so I reused that location when updating all the wiring. The battery charger is located on the outside of the quarter berth on the aft end of the cubbies.

There are some photos of my electrical system in this thread. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/ericson-30-fuel-tank-replacement.18261/page-3

And if you plan on doing much work in the aft end of the boat I highly recommend this mod: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/e30-stern-access-pt-1.717/

 

[Dave G.]

(and apparently 10 keel bolts as opposed to 7!

Bigd & Frank, do you guys have deep or shoal draft keels ?

 

[bigd14]

Deep keel here. If yours is a shoal keel that would certainly explain the 10 bolts!

 

[Frank Langer]

Deep keel here. If yours is a shoal keel that would certainly explain the 10 bolts!

Mine is also deep draft fun keel.
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Deep keel here.

Same here, so no obvious reason for the difference...

 

[Jaybee]

My engine cover pulls off as a unit like yours does, no door. The brochure is of the earlier generation of 30+. In mid-1984 they updated the deck and interior to match their newer model boats. Of the 1984 boats it looks like Dave G has the earlier version and Frank and you and I have the updated version. The hull is the same. The earlier generation has a bridge-deck traveler and squared off seats in the cockpit and lots more teak veneer surfaces in the interior (and apparently 10 keel bolts as opposed to 7!).

A previous owner located the AC panel next to the battery switch, so I reused that location when updating all the wiring. The battery charger is located on the outside of the quarter berth on the aft end of the cubbies.

There are some photos of my electrical system in this thread. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/ericson-30-fuel-tank-replacement.18261/page-3

And if you plan on doing much work in the aft end of the boat I highly recommend this mod: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/e30-stern-access-pt-1.717/

I will definitely be checking out those links.

I don't plan on doing anything crazy right now but having poked around through all the systems the other day I'm thinking over the long term some refitting is in order. I'm not a fan of the "false floor bilge" where water can still get underneath it. The A/C electrical box is under the kitchen cabinet next to the sink, not a fan of that either. Also, I'd like to move the batter switch to where you have yours as well, easier to get to in an emergency type situation. Anyhow, that will be a ways off in the future but I'm starting the planning now. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Jaybee]

So looking at the photos again I think my boat does have a similar cutout. The settee was removed by a previous owner so they could install a cabin heater. See bottom of this photo. Look similar?

I was wrong, the water collects near the aft keel bolt on my boat not the forward one.
View attachment 43784

Looking at your photo here, where is your bilge pump normally drawing from?

Mine is located in the finished bilge area where the keel bolts are closest to the front of the boat on the right in my first photo. Also you can see with bilge pump moved out of the way the water I thought was "under the bilge in the access hole" that prompted my initial post was actually in there due to the holes drilled through the wall of the bilge area - does this have holes like that? Lastly in the last photo, it looks like someone may have added fiberglass to the bilge areas, it's really discolored but also it looks like they cut drainage holes into it away well. I do see a similar cut in your picture but all of the hidden bilge area are like this on my boat. Again is this how it was from the factory?
Thanks !

 

[Christian Williams]

The mid 80s Ericsons used a heavy strengthening hull insert called the Tri-Axial Force Grid (TAFG). It was placed into the hull and secured to it by a system of tabs.

The dark areas in the photos are the tab attachments. The central part of the rectangle is the hull itself. The perimeter is the fiberglass tape.

The TAFG is gelcoated smooth, which is one way to identify it. It has sumps molded in for bilge water, as under your table base above.

The structure is a big success. It strengthens the boat and provides design attachment points for furniture and rigging.

It has one unintended effect, which is to create a grid of compartments that can trap water. It is pretty much impossible, at least on some models, to prevent water getting under and into the TAFG, where it's harmless but can reside for decades and be difficult to remove.

To drain the voids in the TAFG the factory sometimes provided holes in the vertical grid wall, sealed with screw-in plugs. Some models have them, some don't.

Many owners have drilled drain holes in the vertical TAFG structure, to let the water drain out. However, that means bilge water also goes in.

It's something we deal with.

If an oil or fuel spill leak occurs, which is inevitable, the mess gets into the TAFG, requiring either fanatical patience and multiple flooding with detergent, or a mature recognition that bilges were not designed to be spotless, or a therapist who is willing to help owners confront the ingrained and pathological expectations that make boat owners dissatisfied with imperfection.

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[Loren Beach]

...or a therapist who is willing to help owners confront the ingrained and pathological expectations that make boat owners dissatisfied with imperfection.

Guilty, to some extent, your honor.

 

[bgary]

Guilty, to some extent, your honor.

Ditto.

 

[Jaybee]

The mid 80s Ericsons used a heavy strengthening hull insert called the Tri-Axial Force Grid (TAFG). It was placed into the hull and secured to it by a system of tabs.

The dark areas in the photos are the tab attachments. The central part of the rectangle is the hull itself. The perimeter is the fiberglass tape.

The TAFG is gelcoated smooth, which is one way to identify it. It has sumps molded in for bilge water, as under your table base above.

The structure is a big success. It strengthens the boat and provides design attachment points for furniture and rigging.

It has one unintended effect, which is to create a grid of compartments that can trap water. It is pretty much impossible, at least on some models, to prevent water getting under and into the TAFG, where it's harmless but can reside for decades and be difficult to remove.

To drain the voids in the TAFG the factory sometimes provided holes in the vertical grid wall, sealed with screw-in plugs. Some boats have them, some don't.

Many owners have drilled drain holes in the vertical TAFG structure, to let the water drain out. However, that means bilge water also goes in.

It's something we deal with.

If an oil or fuel spill leak occurs, which is inevitable, the mess gets into the TAFG, requiring either fanatical patience and multiple flooding with detergent, or a mature recognition that bilges were not designed to be spotless, or a therapist who is willing to help owners confront the ingrained and pathological expectations that make boat owners dissatisfied with imperfection.

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Last edited: Aug 26, 2015

Roger that is understood, hence the question - my TAFG is dark brown in color and not gel coated, so my assumption of being repaired?

I was just trying to get a feel for how many people had extra holes in their grid as well, good to know it is a fairly common thing. The problem for me is all the water goes towards the front most keel bolt instead of the bilge area which is why I was asking how others were set up. I'm not concerned with having a spotless bilge just trying to figure out what I personally like and don't like about what the factory or aftermarket did to my boat and how I want to approach making it how I want it to be.

 

[Christian Williams]

The pictures show that your TAFG is white, and gelcoated. Everything in the photos that's white is TAFG. I can't see evidence of a repair, looks normal to me.

I don't know why the tabbing goes dark. Maybe it's the resin, maybe just oil picked up over the years.

Here's a photo of the tabbing on my boat, under a sole section that was delaminated.

 

[Jaybee]

The pictures show that your TAFG is white, and gelcoated. Everything in the photos that's white is TAFG. I can't see evidence of a repair, looks normal to me.

I don't know why the tabbing goes dark. Maybe it's the resin, maybe just oil picked up over the years.

Here's a photo of the tabbing on my boat, under a sole section that was delaminated.

View attachment 43883

Ok, the picture in the post that I quoted, thiers was still white - hence the query. Thanks, good to know I'm not alone! haha

 

[bigd14]

Ok, the picture in the post that I quoted, thiers was still white - hence the query.

That was my boat and a PO had painted or gel coated those tabs sometime in the past. Other tabs (under the settee for example) are raw unpainted fiberglass stained with oil/diesel/gunk like yours. I did spend some time getting as much of the grease and funk out of the bilge as possible mainly to reduce the very strong and distinctive diesel bilge odor that permeated the entire boat. I also spent lots of time chasing leaks because they annoy me and I want to prevent damage to the boat. Now the only water in the boat comes from around the two dorades on the taffrail and it finds it’s way to a low spot beneath and aft of the main bilge compartments with no bilge pump pickup. I have to remove it with a turkey baster, but normally I just don’t worry about it and it dries up in the summer anyway.

In the photo on the first page I have the cockpit manual bilge pump pickup in the main bilge compartment in front of the settee, and the electric diaphragm pump plumbed to the deeper bilge compartment just aft of the compression post. The electric pump uses a water witch electronic switch also located with the pickup tube.

 

[Kenneth K]

Now the only water in the boat comes from around the two dorades on the taffrail and it finds it’s way to a low spot beneath and aft of the main bilge compartments with no bilge pump pickup. I have to remove it with a turkey baster.....
.

Before refinishing my taffrail, I sanded it and did 2 treatments of TeKa cleaner. TeKa requires lots of rinsing so I was sure I would find water in my aft bilge, but, no, it was dry.

Two days later, with lots of waves from weekend boat traffic, I had 1/4" water in the aft bilge so I went to investigate. There is a pocket formed by the hull sides and the "lump" of fiberglass over the top of the prop strut. This pocket was full of about 8 oz of water. It took two days and some agitation for water to migrate from the aft cowl vent holes to the bilge.

 

[bigd14]

There is a pocket formed by the hull sides and the "lump" of fiberglass over the top of the prop strut.

Yes, I have that same spot that collects water which is now slightly flatter since I replaced the strut. Unfortunately it’s impossible to see under the fuel tank. But there are other more visible collection spots on the 30+ (and likely other models) that can help identify stern area leaks- one right under the shaft log and one just aft of the rudder post.

 

[Jaybee]

In the photo on the first page I have the cockpit manual bilge pump pickup in the main bilge compartment in front of the settee, and the electric diaphragm pump plumbed to the deeper bilge compartment just aft of the compression post. The electric pump uses a water witch electronic switch also located with the pickup tube.

That's how I was thinking of configuring my bilge pumps. Thanks !