Raritan PH2 decisions...

[Loren Beach]

We replaced this head in '94, and this was the factory head for our '88 boat, AFAIK.
No problems, per se, but this season it has been getting harder to pump and makes a loud whistling sound when pumped. As seems common for these, the turn valve for dry bowling is hard to rotate. My wife has a weak wrist and is starting to bring this whole situation to my attention. Being oblivious to minor irritations like this, I probably would just live with its faults until it fails and then replace or rebuild it!

In doing a bit of research, I find that a new head complete is about $300., give or take, and I can source a whole new pump assembly for around $160. from Defender. (Having rebuilt the head on our prior boat a whole buncha times I am quite unenthused about that option...)

What say ye about just bolting on a whole new pump assembly? The bowl, lid, and base are still looking great -- no need to change them.

I do realize that there are other head choices, like the wonderous vacuum head, but sticking with this normally-trouble-free-for-a-decade model seems like a good choice for us.

Thanks,
Loren

 

[stbdtack]

Loren,
Dump a tablespoon of corn oil or olive oil in the head and pump on dry. That should do a lot to make the pumping easier. For the selector, take off the knob and unscrew the large cap that holds the assembly in. Lube all the o-rings and surfaces with silicone grease and it should be much easier to turn.

Also a new pump assembly will certainly take care of the problem.

Unless the base is leaking there is no reason to replace it or the bowl.

I have these toilets on both my boats and I think they are one of the best for the money.

 

[Shadowfax]

I agree. Olive oil, or mineral oil [olive oil is cheaper] into the head works wonders. Also I don't know if you have the old style selector dial, but the newer one, with wings is much easier to operate.

 

[wurzner]

Stick with the Raritan. You can buy a Jabsco for less than the pump assembly, but I've heard nothing but bad things about them. I purchased a new Raritan PHII for around 270. Given the cost of a a rebuild kit (80) and turn key pump assembly (160) and the head, I decided to go all the way. I know why they call it a jocker valve (the jokes on you if you need to be down there) and decided to go new. I did, however rebuild the pump on my 32 and it worked fine afterwards. On my new head, the plastic hinged part that attaches to the pump lever was looking old and figured just go new. If your parts look strong, just a rebuild kit for the pump!

good luck.
shaun

 

[CaptnNero]

Jabsco, the bareboat choice

After doing a few Raritan head rebuilds on various boats and never being happy with the results, I picked up a Jabsco pump for about $100. Then I made an adaptor plate out of starboard to mate it with the factory head assembly. No more problems. I choose the Jabsco because I noticed that all of the Sunsail bareboats I chartered used the Jabsco pump and it was easier to use. I figured that is one area the charter company wouldn't skimp on their boats.

Making the adaptor was a little tricky to get the screws to hold but it worked out.

 

[Tom Metzger]

A half hour with a tube of grease is usually all it takes to keep a PHII working smoothly. The rebuild kit is not required unless there are specific problems which I have never encountered. The joker valve can be obtained without the rest of the kit.

Installing a lousy pump on a good head doesn't sound like the Ericson way of doing things.

 

[CaptnNero]

I agree

...Installing a lousy pump on a good head doesn't sound like the Ericson way of doing things.

Precisely! I asked myself "Why would there be a lousy pump there to begin with ?", so I just replaced it .

The last straw was when a dainty guest sheared the poorly marked intake valve handle one otherwise beautiful Sunday morning on anchor (picture that scene, guests on board). When I looked at how it was made it was not surprising that the valve handle could shear. Previously there was a problem with the pump handle but I don't recall exactly what now.

The Jabsco uses a simpler and sturdy lever control for the valve. You can operate it with a flick of one finger. Externally its also easier to clean without all the nooks and crannys of the original pump. I wonder how many people have been surprised by the pins on the handle mechanism while cleaning around the original pump.

 

[wurzner]

Gents,

Not to turn this into a mud slinging contest (or worse)..and also I have never owned a jopsco but... I can tell you a lot of folks in our marina have had a lot of problems with them. Maybe they need to eat more fiber and I have used Jobsco a lot with not issues. The only point I was trying to make is you tend to get what you pay for and the Raritan has been fine. I was recently at the cross roads of what to do and REALLY wanted to go another route since the parts kit from Raritan is grossly over priced. After talking to the folks on the dock and my previous experiances, I opted for the Raritian both for the rebuild on my 32 and installing new on my 38. I have a friend with a brand new Jeaneau SF 37 and the head has been a nitmare. Also, don't think that because a boat you chartered has it means anything. Boat set up for chartering are made to make money and that means what is the best deal in high volume. I'm sure if you read the fine print, a non functioning head May give you a discount, but not a free week. For $150, they would just change the who unit. I will say that I DO prefer the Jabsco pump mechanism with the up/down plunger opposed to the lever style. At the end of the day though, I would stay with my raritan.

shaun

 

[CaptnNero]

From your gut to your head

If things seem heated here just remember that this thread was started by a moderator.

Switching pumps wasn't a decision based on price. I've read elsewhere about some other head that the offshore guys swear buy but was hard to find. In my case I ignored that and went with my own experience. Besides the issues with my three boats, I had the good Jabsco experiences with 7 bareboats, 4 of which were full cabin 50 footers. For me, that was plenty of data to compare to my own boats. One bareboat trip I talked to a local fellow who worked on the bareboats in a large maintenance facility on Tortola. He said "Almote all dee head problems on dee boats were from tings dat weren't supposed to be in dee head anyway, Mon".

Again, I haven't seen anything but a Jabsco on a bareboat, including the one ten year old whipped Beneteau that I was invited on. Maybe the heads had been replaced by then but the Jabscos were one of the few things that were working right.

The thing I wanted to get across in my original post was that a Jabsco can be mated to the Raritan assembly with a simple home made adaptor plate with a good result. After a few minutes with the table saw and drill press, the starboard adaptor plate was done and blends right in. In fact, the plate combined with the Jabsco pump is less odd looking than the contours of the original pump. When an old system on an 18 year boat is having problems, replacing with new is considered. When I made the pump switch I was already planning on keeping a spare pump assembly on board anyway so I wouldn't ever have to rebuild underway. Now that the Jabsco has been working for a few seasons, I'm going to pick up a spare.

When it comes down to it, you have to go with what your gut tells you, particularly when it comes to your head

Gents,

Not to turn this into a mud slinging contest (or worse)..and also I have never owned a jopsco but... I can tell you a lot of folks in our marina have had a lot of problems with them. Maybe they need to eat more fiber and I have used Jobsco a lot with not issues. The only point I was trying to make is you tend to get what you pay for and the Raritan has been fine. I was recently at the cross roads of what to do and REALLY wanted to go another route since the parts kit from Raritan is grossly over priced. After talking to the folks on the dock and my previous experiances, I opted for the Raritian both for the rebuild on my 32 and installing new on my 38. I have a friend with a brand new Jeaneau SF 37 and the head has been a nitmare. Also, don't think that because a boat you chartered has it means anything. Boat set up for chartering are made to make money and that means what is the best deal in high volume. I'm sure if you read the fine print, a non functioning head May give you a discount, but not a free week. For $150, they would just change the who unit. I will say that I DO prefer the Jabsco pump mechanism with the up/down plunger opposed to the lever style. At the end of the day though, I would stay with my raritan.

shaun

 

[wurzner]

Neal,

I think I'm getting it after your last email. Are you saying you used a Jabsco pump on a raritan head? If so, I would definately go that route in the future. I do like the compactness of the jabsco assembly opposed to the raritan. If that is what you did, I think a few photos would be beneficial to the list or even posted as an owner upgrade. I do think raritan is out of their mind for what they charge for a rebuild kit or new pump.

thanks
shaun

 

[CaptnNero]

Are you from Missouri ?

Yes indeed, the Jabsco pump can learn to talk to the rest of the Raritan plumbing. After all it's the same old protocol.

Ok Shaun, I'll come up with some pics. I guess it's time to polish the head.

Neal,

I think I'm getting it after your last email. Are you saying you used a Jabsco pump on a raritan head? If so, I would definately go that route in the future. I do like the compactness of the jabsco assembly opposed to the raritan. If that is what you did, I think a few photos would be beneficial to the list or even posted as an owner upgrade. I do think raritan is out of their mind for what they charge for a rebuild kit or new pump.

thanks
shaun

 

[Mike.Gritten]

Raritan PHII

We live aboard our 35 mkII and have done so for over 3 years now. She had an old, leaking, smelly Raritan head installed when we purchased her, and the first order of business on the Admiral's list was to fix the head. I replaced the toilet seat and purchased the complete pump assembly from WM. I redesigned and replaced all the head/holding tank hoses and fittings and installed vented loops in the appropriate spots. It has all worked great and has been a really "sweet" upgrade. As others have suggested, we do the cooking oil for lubrication thing every once in a while and fill all the hoses and the head itself with vinegar once every 4 to 6 weeks to keep things moving. As per the Raritan instructions, we lube the stainless plunger shaft with Super Lube every couple of weeks to protect the o-ring seals at the top of the piston. We keep an overhaul parts kit aboard and have replaced a couple of leaking o-rings on the pump body. We have found that disassembling and lubing the "stuff" under the "flush/empty" twist knob keeps that working smoothly. We use ours probably more than most people on this list and think that the Raritan has been an excellent choice. I would not consider switching on this boat (I might be co-erced [sp?] into a vacuflush or electric head if we were on a much bigger boat [44+ ft]).

 

[stbdtack]

Mike, Dont go with a vacuflush, too expensive and too many potential problems.
I love this debate.....

Charter boats use the head that was installed by the builder. I just came back from a moorings charter and the boat had 4 jabsco heads, none of which worked smoothly.

I'm not saying they are bad heads just that I replace parts way too often on jabscos. And I deal with the 2nd largest Catalina dealer in the country. They all come with jabscos when a manual toilet is installed. Mostly because they cost less.

Both toilets work well if they are maintained properly. (lubrication)

FYI: Raritan has a new style piston ring for those of you with old PHIIs. Its worth the rebuild to use the new style

Havent heard from the Groco or Wilcox Crittenden contingent yet.....

 

[CaptnNero]

which ones ?

Ben, can you tell us if there are particular parts that you tend to replace on the Jabsco ?

...I'm not saying they are bad heads just that I replace parts way too often on jabscos. And I deal with the 2nd largest Catalina dealer in the country. They all come with jabscos when a manual toilet is installed. Mostly because they cost less.

Both toilets work well if they are maintained properly. (lubrication)
...

 

[stbdtack]

Neal,
Mostly its the gasket on the top cap. Overly aggressive pumping will cause the gasket to leak around the edges. Owners will attempt to stop it by tightening the screws and either crack the cap or strip the screws.
The valve manifold is all in the top and the one piece gasket can take a set so that the lever doesnt activate the the flapper to seal the intake port.
Have replaced several handles that seem to break at the brass insert.
Since the pump handle is connected directly to the top of the piston rod any side loading can cause the upper guide to wear and the seal will start to leak.

The upper gasket is easy to replace and I suggest owners do that at least every 2 years. Better is once a season if the head is used often.

 

[CaptnNero]

Terrific, thanks for all the details about what to look for.

Neal,
Mostly its the gasket on the top cap. Overly aggressive pumping will cause the gasket to leak around the edges. Owners will attempt to stop it by tightening the screws and either crack the cap or strip the screws.
The valve manifold is all in the top and the one piece gasket can take a set so that the lever doesnt activate the the flapper to seal the intake port.
Have replaced several handles that seem to break at the brass insert.
Since the pump handle is connected directly to the top of the piston rod any side loading can cause the upper guide to wear and the seal will start to leak.

The upper gasket is easy to replace and I suggest owners do that at least every 2 years. Better is once a season if the head is used often.

 

[CaptnNero]

Charters, heads, and the walkthru

...Charter boats use the head that was installed by the builder. I just came back from a moorings charter and the boat had 4 jabsco heads, none of which worked smoothly.
...

Of course the charter boat uses the head installed by the builder but the real question is why did the builder install that head ? In this case I doubt it's as simple as "it was less expensive" if the charterer experience is impacted poorly by that choice. Besides the major charter companies are pretty clever about getting indviduals to buy or lease the boats up front, so purchase price isn't really charter company money. I hope you are not saying that the large charter companies do not have considerable influence with a builder on simple to substiture items such as a head when it is impacting the core charter company business. At this point Sunsail and Moorings, the largest, are even owned by the same entity. Having problematic heads is not going to fit the charter company marketing plan very well. I know that broken, smelly heads will cause highly dissatisfied customers. Second, the charter business like so many others is heavily dependent on return customers, and dissatisfied customers are much less likely to return. Populating the major charter company fleets was a powerful marketing strategy that worked hugely for Beneteau, so I expect that the charter companies have at least had the attention of Beneteau. If the Jabsco was so poor that it was making unhappy charterers, it would quickly disappear from that marketplace.

As to the matter of your bad experience with an incredible four non-smoothly working heads, I have some ideas there. Not knowing how your boat preparation was handled, I'll just provide my strategy. On each of the several charters I have skippered, I always spend the night before departure on the vessel along with the whole crew. I have seen charterers on other boats arrive from the airport and jump on the boat the morning of departure. Little time is left to prepare and accept the boat. I explain to everyone right away on arrival day when we first climb on the vessel that time is of the essence with respect to reporting any defects to me so that I can in turn handle the necessary maintenance transactions with the marina staff sooner rather than later. I encourage people to try everything in their cabin including the head and get back to me with defects. Then strategically I can apply more pressure for items reported on the arrival day that aren't fixed by early on the departure morning, plus the maintenance staff has more time to deal with it. As I stated in a previous post, I just haven't seen a head pump problem on any bareboat. In your case it would seem that with so many problematic heads one would expect that at least some of those problems would be apparent if one stayed on board the night before departure and could be addressed before leaving the base. That is why I would question the process that was used to prepare this vessel, including the charterer's walkthru and acceptance of the vessel. I always end up with a significant punchlist on arrival day so as skipper my vacation doesn't really start until that list is complete the day of departure. In the end, the attention to the punchlist is worth it for the rest of the charter.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Another dead one

FWIW, I encountered another dead Jabsco head pump yesterday on a 2002 fresh water Jenneau. I'll stick with my 19* year old PHII.

*Full disclosure: Half of life in fresh water.

 

[CaptnNero]

DOA Jabsco

You encountered ? Do you work on other peoples' boats ?

FWIW, I encountered another dead Jabsco head pump yesterday on a 2002 fresh water Jenneau. I'll stick with my 19* year old PHII.

*Full disclosure: Half of life in fresh water.

 

[Tom Metzger]

You encountered ? Do you work on other peoples' boats ?

Don't we all? That's what friends are for. I try to keep the marina mechanics off of my dock. Please don't tell the IRS that I earned, or at least got paid, a bottle of St James rum for some engine work this week. I told the victim to replace his own damn head pump. He wasn't THAT good a friend.

Sunday was a strange day. Two friends, each with a 3GM30F, lost their raw water impellers on the same day. We don't loose many impellers in fresh water. I got to change them both after searching for the pieces.