Rudder Bushing, Vesconite Source
http://www.xpcbearings.com/home/what_are_vesconite_hilube
Interesting material. Sounds like a good material for a rudder bearing.
LB
Interesting material. Sounds like a good material for a rudder bearing.
LB
Desiderata
Member II
Commotion, Did you use Vesconite? If so how did it work out for you? We are on the hard now with the rudder pulled. We have a little play and would like to tighten in up. Thank for any help you can give us.
Commotion
Member II
Vesconite Bushings
Sorry for the delay... I have been traveling. I have not finalized my plans for the bushings yet. I still need to dry fit the new Foss rudder and evaluate the tolerances. I did source the Vesconite material and it is kind of pricey. You have to buy a minimum of 1' of the raw materail. Material is $136 plus freight from Texas to California. Then it has to be machined.
Ventura boat yard recommends Delrin, however, they machine is loose and Delrin does expand up to 3% in water. The material cost is less than $50, however, I am leaning toward the Vesconite. I will post my results as I finish over the next couple of weeks. Again, sorry for the delay getting back to you. Please let me know if you have any other questions or what you come up with to fix the tolerances.
Best regards,
Rick
Sorry for the delay... I have been traveling. I have not finalized my plans for the bushings yet. I still need to dry fit the new Foss rudder and evaluate the tolerances. I did source the Vesconite material and it is kind of pricey. You have to buy a minimum of 1' of the raw materail. Material is $136 plus freight from Texas to California. Then it has to be machined.
Ventura boat yard recommends Delrin, however, they machine is loose and Delrin does expand up to 3% in water. The material cost is less than $50, however, I am leaning toward the Vesconite. I will post my results as I finish over the next couple of weeks. Again, sorry for the delay getting back to you. Please let me know if you have any other questions or what you come up with to fix the tolerances.
Best regards,
Rick
Dave Neptune
Member II
Rudder?
Commotion, how hard was it to remove the original bushing? And did or are you replacing both the top and bottom?
Years ago I worked with B King and Norm Cross on modifying a E-27. We changed the keel quite a bit and what a differance in going to weather. We also changed the rudder angle by reducing it almost 15 degrees, and the boat was much easier to steer and far more responsive to rudder input.
I have looked at the Foss replacement and thought about modifying my 35 as I did the 27. I actually live just a couple of miles from Foss and have been involved with a few rudder projects on other boats. The added rudder area would be nice however changing the angle wasn't that big of a deal and it really helped.
Dave Neptune
Commotion, how hard was it to remove the original bushing? And did or are you replacing both the top and bottom?
Years ago I worked with B King and Norm Cross on modifying a E-27. We changed the keel quite a bit and what a differance in going to weather. We also changed the rudder angle by reducing it almost 15 degrees, and the boat was much easier to steer and far more responsive to rudder input.
I have looked at the Foss replacement and thought about modifying my 35 as I did the 27. I actually live just a couple of miles from Foss and have been involved with a few rudder projects on other boats. The added rudder area would be nice however changing the angle wasn't that big of a deal and it really helped.
Dave Neptune
Hi Dave,
I stumbled on your post about changing the keel and rudder on an E27 over at the A-4 site. How did you change the rudder angle? Did you move the rudder tube or just add to the leading edge of the rudder?
Do you know where that boat is today?
I stumbled on your post about changing the keel and rudder on an E27 over at the A-4 site. How did you change the rudder angle? Did you move the rudder tube or just add to the leading edge of the rudder?
Do you know where that boat is today?
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Dave Neptune
Member II
Anglle change
Mark, I cut the tube out by making an eliptical hole and rotated the tube a couple inches forward. I cut out the rudder post at the deck the same way and slid it back about an inch and cut a teak wood wedge to place under the rudder post. I had to do a bit of feathering and filling on the bottom and the rudder to match the bottom. I also cut away the leading edge of the rudder and fabricated a short skeg ahead of where I cut the leading edge away. Worked great and was much easier to steer and tracked much better but the tracking had more to do with the keel mod.
There was actually very little to remove from the leading edge and the skeg was about 10" deep and 16" long triangle ahead of the rudder. I never did measure how much the angle changed but it was at least 15~18 degrees.
Dave Neptune
Mark, I cut the tube out by making an eliptical hole and rotated the tube a couple inches forward. I cut out the rudder post at the deck the same way and slid it back about an inch and cut a teak wood wedge to place under the rudder post. I had to do a bit of feathering and filling on the bottom and the rudder to match the bottom. I also cut away the leading edge of the rudder and fabricated a short skeg ahead of where I cut the leading edge away. Worked great and was much easier to steer and tracked much better but the tracking had more to do with the keel mod.
There was actually very little to remove from the leading edge and the skeg was about 10" deep and 16" long triangle ahead of the rudder. I never did measure how much the angle changed but it was at least 15~18 degrees.
Dave Neptune
Commotion
Member II
Vesconite Bushings (Cost)
The local boat yard here in Ventura recommended Delrin. They said it swells up to 3% in water. The material cost for Delrin is 1/4 th the price of Vesconite. I decided, however, to go for the Vesconite. The manufacturer said this material will not swell more than one third of one percent. It will be delivered in a few days. $146 for 1' of 90mm OD X 40mm ID. I am replacing the lower bearing. I carefully cut the old bronze bushing out with a saws-all and worked it out. I am also machining the top bronze deck plate that receives the rudder post to accept a vesconite sleeve as a bearing. I will let you know how it goes and post photos.
Also, the new Foss rudder is a beautiful shape... like a pectoral fin on a gray whale. The top leading edge of the new Foss rudder is 4.75" in front of the rudder post, the factory rudder top leading edge is 7.5" in front of the post. The trailing top edge (back) is 15" from the post on the Foss and 15.5" on the factory rudder. The overall length of the factory rudder, from where the shaft enters is about 48" and the Foss is 54" with a lot more surface area on the lower wet end. Several people familiar with this setup tell me it makes a world of difference. Unfortunately, I have no sailing experience with the old set up to compare.
The local boat yard here in Ventura recommended Delrin. They said it swells up to 3% in water. The material cost for Delrin is 1/4 th the price of Vesconite. I decided, however, to go for the Vesconite. The manufacturer said this material will not swell more than one third of one percent. It will be delivered in a few days. $146 for 1' of 90mm OD X 40mm ID. I am replacing the lower bearing. I carefully cut the old bronze bushing out with a saws-all and worked it out. I am also machining the top bronze deck plate that receives the rudder post to accept a vesconite sleeve as a bearing. I will let you know how it goes and post photos.
Also, the new Foss rudder is a beautiful shape... like a pectoral fin on a gray whale. The top leading edge of the new Foss rudder is 4.75" in front of the rudder post, the factory rudder top leading edge is 7.5" in front of the post. The trailing top edge (back) is 15" from the post on the Foss and 15.5" on the factory rudder. The overall length of the factory rudder, from where the shaft enters is about 48" and the Foss is 54" with a lot more surface area on the lower wet end. Several people familiar with this setup tell me it makes a world of difference. Unfortunately, I have no sailing experience with the old set up to compare.
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I have a 1974 Ericson 35 and will soon be pulling the boat to replace the rudder bushings. The thread on Vesconite is very interesting. I live in Vancouver, BC so would probably have to source from the same source you used. Also, did you have them machine the bushing or did you get the raw material and have it machined locally?? If you had any pictures of the process it would be really appreciated. I also want to replace the upper bushing as well so any info on doing that would also be appreciated. Thanks, David
Commotion
Member II
Vesconite Bushings
<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 251); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 251);" size="1"> http://www.xpcbearings.com/home/what...sconite_hilube
This is considered an exotic plastic and is expensive. $200 for just the material then I had it machined at a local machine shop. I bought a 90mm OD by 45mm ID X 18" long as raw material. I then machined it down for the lower hull bushing. I also made a bushing to fit in the bronze/chrome casting that bolts to the cockpit floor and another that I glassed into the top of the new rudder. I also made a thrust bearing to space the rudder away from the hull and add give it a little more bearing surface. It turned out perfect, however, I have not put the boat in the water yet. The biggest problem I had was the new rudder post was not 90 degrees to the bearing surface when I bought it, however, after I glassed in the vesconite bushing, it's perfect. I will attach photos... the other problem you run into with tight tollerances... The new rudder post is a 304 stainless pipe and not exactly round. I think I would have tried something different, like machine the high spots on the post, before they glassed the rudder. You can call me if you need to discuss.
<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 251); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 251);" size="1"> http://www.xpcbearings.com/home/what...sconite_hilube
This is considered an exotic plastic and is expensive. $200 for just the material then I had it machined at a local machine shop. I bought a 90mm OD by 45mm ID X 18" long as raw material. I then machined it down for the lower hull bushing. I also made a bushing to fit in the bronze/chrome casting that bolts to the cockpit floor and another that I glassed into the top of the new rudder. I also made a thrust bearing to space the rudder away from the hull and add give it a little more bearing surface. It turned out perfect, however, I have not put the boat in the water yet. The biggest problem I had was the new rudder post was not 90 degrees to the bearing surface when I bought it, however, after I glassed in the vesconite bushing, it's perfect. I will attach photos... the other problem you run into with tight tollerances... The new rudder post is a 304 stainless pipe and not exactly round. I think I would have tried something different, like machine the high spots on the post, before they glassed the rudder. You can call me if you need to discuss.
Attachments
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Rudder Bearing.jpg
Words to live by for anyone contemplating replacing their rudder. New stainless
pipe for the rudderstock most definitely needs to be turned round and to
spec before being welded up.
Commotion
Member II
Foss Rudder Company in Southern California
I have trouble understanding how Foss Rudder company would build such a sloppy tolerance without warning it's customer of what to expect? I work in the office furniture industry and like many other industries, "Quality Is Assumed". In the case of this rudder, the the old adage regarding "Assume" applies. YES... Very important to check the specs at Foss. I am disappointed with what I received.
I have trouble understanding how Foss Rudder company would build such a sloppy tolerance without warning it's customer of what to expect? I work in the office furniture industry and like many other industries, "Quality Is Assumed". In the case of this rudder, the the old adage regarding "Assume" applies. YES... Very important to check the specs at Foss. I am disappointed with what I received.
Amazing isn't it? I don't think Foss made much money on me as they
had to build my rudder twice because of this very issue.
In my biz,you are only as good as your last job, and you better do it right
the first time because there are no second chances.
had to build my rudder twice because of this very issue.
In my biz,you are only as good as your last job, and you better do it right
the first time because there are no second chances.
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Lots of issues
There have been a lot of issues with people dealing with Foss.... I could elaborate, but it would go on for pages and pages.....
I don't know how they stay in business.
Guy
There have been a lot of issues with people dealing with Foss.... I could elaborate, but it would go on for pages and pages.....
I don't know how they stay in business.
Guy
robjpowell
Member II
As another 35-2 owner I too have been thinking of a rudder replacement. Seeing this list of concerns about Foss' ability to turn out quality product raises the question -Is there anyone else to turn to? Or, is this a niche in need?
robjpowell
Member II
Commotion,
Did you have to remove material to increase the bore in order to make your bushing fit on the cockpit sole chrome/brass fitting? I have my rudder and that fitting here at home and if I am lucky I have 1/32" clearance. I don't see a 1/64" thickness bushing being a good idea -both from a manufacturing and a tolerance/wear/rigidity point of view. The photos you posted certainly seem to show a much thicker section. With my sole fitting cleaned up I still can't see any indentation/ridge to suggest that I can get the brass out. Was it a sleeve for you or one piece? The other problem I am having is getting the old 'derlin?' out of the lower shaft. Even with it cut in a couple of places it doesn't want to budge. While I am a Kiwi and well versed in the #8 fencing wire/brute force and ignorance approaches this just doesn't seem like a good one to use either. Any pointers would be appreciated.
Cheers
Rob
Thanks
Rob
Did you have to remove material to increase the bore in order to make your bushing fit on the cockpit sole chrome/brass fitting? I have my rudder and that fitting here at home and if I am lucky I have 1/32" clearance. I don't see a 1/64" thickness bushing being a good idea -both from a manufacturing and a tolerance/wear/rigidity point of view. The photos you posted certainly seem to show a much thicker section. With my sole fitting cleaned up I still can't see any indentation/ridge to suggest that I can get the brass out. Was it a sleeve for you or one piece? The other problem I am having is getting the old 'derlin?' out of the lower shaft. Even with it cut in a couple of places it doesn't want to budge. While I am a Kiwi and well versed in the #8 fencing wire/brute force and ignorance approaches this just doesn't seem like a good one to use either. Any pointers would be appreciated.
Cheers
Rob
Thanks
Rob
robjpowell
Member II
Good experiance: Vesconite supply, milling and service
I wanted to share with you all how positive an experience I had dealing with Vesconite, South Africa. It is, as has been noted not cheap material with a roughly $200 price for delivered tube in sufficient size to make an upper and lower bushing. What was surprising was that the price premium to have them actually turn it to my measurements was only ~$115 (2 pieces, 100mm long, OD=82.00, ID=74.09 AND 175mm long, OD=88.52 ID=74.09 -they can work in imperial units but I grew up with metric and that is what I still measure in. divide by 25.4 to get inches). Time from putting in a web request to sales contact less than 2 days, total time from ordering to delivery was 8 days. Dry fit is great. Just need to get it installed now.
Rob
I wanted to share with you all how positive an experience I had dealing with Vesconite, South Africa. It is, as has been noted not cheap material with a roughly $200 price for delivered tube in sufficient size to make an upper and lower bushing. What was surprising was that the price premium to have them actually turn it to my measurements was only ~$115 (2 pieces, 100mm long, OD=82.00, ID=74.09 AND 175mm long, OD=88.52 ID=74.09 -they can work in imperial units but I grew up with metric and that is what I still measure in. divide by 25.4 to get inches). Time from putting in a web request to sales contact less than 2 days, total time from ordering to delivery was 8 days. Dry fit is great. Just need to get it installed now.
Rob
Rob:
Thanks for the info. I am also planning on using Vesconite to replace my bushings and was undecided whether to order the material in and have it turned locally or have Vesconite do it. I'm in Vancouver, BC and was curious as to what the turnaround would be from order to delivery. The concern I have is I can't do the measurements until the boat is out of the water and then have to pay dry storage until the parts come in. One other question, how much clearance did you allow on the ID measurement?
Thanks,
David
Thanks for the info. I am also planning on using Vesconite to replace my bushings and was undecided whether to order the material in and have it turned locally or have Vesconite do it. I'm in Vancouver, BC and was curious as to what the turnaround would be from order to delivery. The concern I have is I can't do the measurements until the boat is out of the water and then have to pay dry storage until the parts come in. One other question, how much clearance did you allow on the ID measurement?
Thanks,
David