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Shadowfax
Member III
Yes there has to be a material involved that conducts electricity. Fiberglass is a poor conductor, so if you have any metal in the water, i.e prop, prop shaft, etc. these would be conductors. They in themselves do not cause stray current. They will conduct it to outside your boat if you are the source, or receive it if the current is outside your boat, the source then being a neighbor, or neighbors, or the marina itself. This is what electrolysis is all about and has been handled here in great depth. Check out the archives and you will have it explained much better then I can
Thanks Paul,
I'm trying to get the harbor that I berth in to allow an exemption for the "unattended vessel" electrical use fee for boats that use electric for auxiliary power. I charge three 12 volt batteries for auxiliary power and for the first time in two years the harbor charged me the extra fee. My charger is a three step unit and it is recommended to leave the charger hooked up all the time (requires a really long cord when sailing
for battery health and maintenance. I understand it takes pennies worth of electricity to charge and maintain the batteries. The extra fee for utilities is $35 per month plus $3 for an electrolysis monitoring program, I could by a lot of gas at $456 a year. One of the concerns for the harbor is stray current. My particular propulsion is a trolling motor and as you say there has to be a metal connection to the water which I don't have when I'm in my slip with the motor raised.
I'm trying to get the harbor that I berth in to allow an exemption for the "unattended vessel" electrical use fee for boats that use electric for auxiliary power. I charge three 12 volt batteries for auxiliary power and for the first time in two years the harbor charged me the extra fee. My charger is a three step unit and it is recommended to leave the charger hooked up all the time (requires a really long cord when sailing
for battery health and maintenance. I understand it takes pennies worth of electricity to charge and maintain the batteries. The extra fee for utilities is $35 per month plus $3 for an electrolysis monitoring program, I could by a lot of gas at $456 a year. One of the concerns for the harbor is stray current. My particular propulsion is a trolling motor and as you say there has to be a metal connection to the water which I don't have when I'm in my slip with the motor raised.
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Get yourself a small solar panel. I keep two 12 volt batteries charged with a 0.5 amp panel. However, my boat is in SoCal and might get more sun than your area.
A panel my size is probably around $100 these days. You might need the next size up. The larger output might also require a controller. However, once you make the investment, it's $0/month. My panel is over 20 years old and still putting out those free milliamps.
A panel my size is probably around $100 these days. You might need the next size up. The larger output might also require a controller. However, once you make the investment, it's $0/month. My panel is over 20 years old and still putting out those free milliamps.
Captain Crunch
Member II
Stray Current?
The interior port side lights on my boat have been acting funny. The quarter berth light meters a little over 11 volts. As I move forward with the meter the lights seem to have less and less voltage to them(with all the lights turned off). Until I get to the forward V berth where the last light in the chain reads 8 ish volts. Is this what you mean by stray voltage? What may cause this? I was thinking maybe water in the deck core and a bad connection is causing the voltage to stray. Anybody here have any other thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
The interior port side lights on my boat have been acting funny. The quarter berth light meters a little over 11 volts. As I move forward with the meter the lights seem to have less and less voltage to them(with all the lights turned off). Until I get to the forward V berth where the last light in the chain reads 8 ish volts. Is this what you mean by stray voltage? What may cause this? I was thinking maybe water in the deck core and a bad connection is causing the voltage to stray. Anybody here have any other thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
Captain-
This is not stray current you are experiencing. It is voltage drop, and is caused by too many lights on a wire not adequately sized to handle the load (amps).
Each light draws a certain number of amps, which is the bulb wattage divided by the voltage. A 20W bulb served by a 12V battery draws 1.66A based on the definition of an Amp =W/V.
Add all those amp requirements up for all lights on the same circuit, then figure out how long of a wire needs to be run to reach all those lights, and finally consult the following table to determine your AWG wire size: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm
5 Lights each drawing 1.66A being served by 25' of wire would require 10AWG wire to achieve a 3% Max voltage drop at 12V. My guess is you've got 14AWG or 16AWG wire serving this circuit, and there is too much resistance for the demand.
Hope this helps.
This is not stray current you are experiencing. It is voltage drop, and is caused by too many lights on a wire not adequately sized to handle the load (amps).
Each light draws a certain number of amps, which is the bulb wattage divided by the voltage. A 20W bulb served by a 12V battery draws 1.66A based on the definition of an Amp =W/V.
Add all those amp requirements up for all lights on the same circuit, then figure out how long of a wire needs to be run to reach all those lights, and finally consult the following table to determine your AWG wire size: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm
5 Lights each drawing 1.66A being served by 25' of wire would require 10AWG wire to achieve a 3% Max voltage drop at 12V. My guess is you've got 14AWG or 16AWG wire serving this circuit, and there is too much resistance for the demand.
Hope this helps.
Hi Ralph,
I agree solar would be the optimum setup. But for my needs I think I would need a pretty large array of panels, mainly because I draw a fair amount of current to motor and I get out quite frequently. I would not like to go out with less than full batteries.
My ultimate goal is to provide incentive for other people to "go" electric. I feel governing bodies can help promote technology - not discourage it by doing things like charging $35 for $2 (?) worth of electricity.
I feel my generation (I'm 50) has largely been asleep at the wheel regarding alternative power sources and the current state of affairs has happened on our watch. Sure there is research going on and there have been technologies developed but until government (local and other) affords the infrastructure to take advantage of them they will not see much growth.
Sorry about that rant, I guess that should have been in the Raft Up forum
http://www.ozecodrive.com/OZecoDrive/Eng/IndexOZecoDriveEng.html
I agree solar would be the optimum setup. But for my needs I think I would need a pretty large array of panels, mainly because I draw a fair amount of current to motor and I get out quite frequently. I would not like to go out with less than full batteries.
My ultimate goal is to provide incentive for other people to "go" electric. I feel governing bodies can help promote technology - not discourage it by doing things like charging $35 for $2 (?) worth of electricity.
I feel my generation (I'm 50) has largely been asleep at the wheel regarding alternative power sources and the current state of affairs has happened on our watch. Sure there is research going on and there have been technologies developed but until government (local and other) affords the infrastructure to take advantage of them they will not see much growth.
Sorry about that rant, I guess that should have been in the Raft Up forum
http://www.ozecodrive.com/OZecoDrive/Eng/IndexOZecoDriveEng.html
admirals barge
Member III
electricity charge
ralph
when i had my boat at the marina cortez in san diego they put meters at the slip and you were charged for what ever you used. you might want to meet with other boat owners and suggest that your marina install meters and charge accordingly....
happy sailing
greg
s/v dalliance
74 35II # 325
wilmingtonm,ca
ralph
when i had my boat at the marina cortez in san diego they put meters at the slip and you were charged for what ever you used. you might want to meet with other boat owners and suggest that your marina install meters and charge accordingly....
happy sailing
greg
s/v dalliance
74 35II # 325
wilmingtonm,ca
Wind above, Electric engine inside...
Hi Mark,
I watched this boat being constructed in our fair city.
Quite Interesting.
http://huberman.org/prestissimo/
You might want to correspond with the owner to rap about electric aux. power...
:nerd:
Best,
Loren in PDX
Hi Mark,
I watched this boat being constructed in our fair city.
Quite Interesting.
http://huberman.org/prestissimo/
You might want to correspond with the owner to rap about electric aux. power...
:nerd:
Best,
Loren in PDX
Mark,
I didn't notice in your post that you had electrical propulsion, else I wouldn't have suggest a "small" solar panel.
Captain,
If all the lights are off and you are seeing a voltage drop from one light fixture to another, that means there is something else "downstream" of the lights that is drawing power from that circuit. There would be no voltage drop unless amps are flowing through the wire (unless the Supreme Court has repealed Ohm's Law).
I didn't notice in your post that you had electrical propulsion, else I wouldn't have suggest a "small" solar panel.
Captain,
If all the lights are off and you are seeing a voltage drop from one light fixture to another, that means there is something else "downstream" of the lights that is drawing power from that circuit. There would be no voltage drop unless amps are flowing through the wire (unless the Supreme Court has repealed Ohm's Law).
Howard Keiper
Moderator
John is right on the money.
Also, if you're connected to shore power for significant periods, you should consider a permanently installed isolation transformer to protect your boat...in any marina. They're fairly cheap, too, but be sure to get a 'marine' variety, sized to your boat...probably 30A.
I'm a strong advocate for Galvanic Isolators as well but, for permanence, I'm more comfortable with the transformer...no special reason that I can think of, just personal bias.
Anyway, if you are connected to shore there's no reason you couldn't keep your charger connected all the time, given that your charger and batteries are comfortable with each other. The monthly cost is insignificant. I keep the reefer running, and two 25W bulbs, all the time. My monthly bill for that is about $5.00.
howard keiper
Berkeley
Also, if you're connected to shore power for significant periods, you should consider a permanently installed isolation transformer to protect your boat...in any marina. They're fairly cheap, too, but be sure to get a 'marine' variety, sized to your boat...probably 30A.
I'm a strong advocate for Galvanic Isolators as well but, for permanence, I'm more comfortable with the transformer...no special reason that I can think of, just personal bias.
Anyway, if you are connected to shore there's no reason you couldn't keep your charger connected all the time, given that your charger and batteries are comfortable with each other. The monthly cost is insignificant. I keep the reefer running, and two 25W bulbs, all the time. My monthly bill for that is about $5.00.
howard keiper
Berkeley
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
The above is spot on; be aware that it is very common on older Ericsons, where the original wiring was not good quality, and has had three decades to corrode. If you are measuring that much voltage drop without the components running, i.e. with just the tiny current used by the voltmeter, then the condition of your wiring is very bad indeed. The only permanent fix is to install new wiring, which a number of E35 owners here (including myself) have had to do.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
My charger is a three step unit and it is recommended to leave the charger hooked up all the time (requires a really long cord when sailing
If you can stay with your boat long enough after every outing to let the charger run through steps one and two from the mains, a solar cell would not have to be very large to power the float charge of step three.
I agree with you entirely about the long overlooked benefits of other than oil powered engines. A few years ago there were prototypes built using hydrogen fuel cells, but the price was astronomic, and it would appear they have dropped out of development, at least for now. The only option for storing energy available right not appears to be lead acid, which is not practical for boats much larger than yours, sadly. If you ever hear otherwise, be sure to keep me informed.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
Captain Crunch
Member II
Replacing old wiring?
Sorry for trying to hijack this thread.
Is it possible to replace the wiring internally through the decking or does it need to be run externally?
Sorry for trying to hijack this thread.
Is it possible to replace the wiring internally through the decking or does it need to be run externally?
Captain Crunch
Member II
Replacing old wiring?
Sorry for trying to hijack this thread.
Is it possible to replace the wiring internally through the decking or does it need to be run externally?
Sorry for trying to hijack this thread.
Is it possible to replace the wiring internally through the decking or does it need to be run externally?
What I would like to see is affordable diesel electric solutions. In my case I only need propulsion for 5 minutes or so to clear the harbor. However I would be loath to count on an electric only system since in a boat my size I need to be able to steam for hours on end. A diesel genset and electric propulsion motor would work great for a few reasons. I could use the electric motor for brief periods to get in and out of harbors and still have the genset to keep the batteries up and allow for extended steaming. I am guessing the house bank could serve double duty. RT
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
So essentially two engines, one diesel, one electric? The power required to drive out of your slip would not be excessive, so it sounds practical for that; but an expensive piece of extra gear for limited purpose, and a lot of extra space would be taken up.
What is needed on sailboats is a means to store power than can be generated by towing a prop when under sail, and enough power to motor for hours when necessary. Hydrogen fuel cells seemed ideal, but were going for about $60000 each when I checked.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
Possible? Maybe. Practical? No. I ran most of mine along the underside of the headliner at the edge of the cabin. I thought it better than running it through the bilge, even if more unsightly. Eventually, it will be hidden by something.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
While I agree with you the fuel cell is a long way off from practical application. For now just making hydrogen is expensive and then there is the distribution necessary to get to the consumer. Diesel/electric IIRC is common in commercial applications. RT
Diesel Electric example
For a look at a real world sailboat with a diesel-electric set up, don't forget this one;
http://huberman.org/sailboat/
There is a section of his site with some details on the drive and power system.
The boat was constructed in our fair city, so a lot of us got to go aboard ane/or look at the project as it moved from epoxy and wood strips to a sail-away (and motoring) stage.
The Wylie design is really good looking, strictly IMO.
Loren
For a look at a real world sailboat with a diesel-electric set up, don't forget this one;
http://huberman.org/sailboat/
There is a section of his site with some details on the drive and power system.
The boat was constructed in our fair city, so a lot of us got to go aboard ane/or look at the project as it moved from epoxy and wood strips to a sail-away (and motoring) stage.
The Wylie design is really good looking, strictly IMO.
Loren