Universal diesel--as good as a Yanmar?

[Frank Langer]

Not knowing much about diesel engines when I bought my boat earlier this year, and as is probably typical of many of us sailors, I focused more on the condition of the hull, rigging, woodwork, instrumentation and sails than I did on the diesel motor, other than to note that it started easily, sounded "normal" (whatever that is!), and didn't smoke.

So now that I am trying to understand the finer details of the boat, after a few months of ownership and increasing familiarity with the boat's systems and operations, I am wondering two things:

Firstly, are the various models of Universal diesels in the Ericson line basically all the same, and of similar quality, or are there good/bad ones? Mine has the 5416 (I think it's about 16 or 18 h.p.)?

Secondly, how do these motors compare with the popular Yanmar, Bukh, Volvo and other makes of diesels for sailboats?

Any information/opinions appreciated.

Frank.

 

[wurzner]

I think anyone would be hard pressed to make a case for or against any of those engines. They are typically based on Volvo, Beta and Kubota (Universal), Mitsubishi (Westerbeeke) or Yanmar engines. Kubota is the worlds largest manufacturer of light duty diesels, so they know something about building them. Yanmar engines are used in John Deere which are very well regarded for their reliability. That being said, it has to do with choices. I went with a Universal for a few reasons. The newer Yanmars in my HP range are turbo charged. This means more parts to break, higher revving, and MORE noise. Also, I wanted a 4 cylinder since I thought it would be smoother (maybe this is a myth, who knows).

The old 5432 and many others are very well regarded (read reliable) engines that are still in service 25 years later. Yanmars, I don't know about but I'm sure they are the same.

In short, good maintenance, clean fuel, and no water = lots of good engine hours. Look at it this way. An aircraft engine (light duty) undergoes a TBO (total breakdown overhaul) ever 1800 hours. They are air cooled and need to be extremely high reliability. That being said, you could easily expect 5,000 hours plus out of your diesel if you do the appropriate PM work on it.

To summarize, I'd be less concerned about the brand and more concerned about the maintenance history.

Good luck and welcome to the list.

shaun

 

[rwthomas1]

Shaun said most everything needed. I have lots of experience with high-mileage land based diesels. I have no problem owning and driving diesel vehicles with 300+K on them. PM is the key to longevity. It is very hard to hurt a diesel. Change the oil, fresh fuel, etc and they will reward you with very long service life. 5000hrs easily, some can hit 10,000. Yanmar is a big question mark in the powerboating world. I know a few marine mechs and they worry about Yanmar longevity compared to Caterpillar, Detroit, MAN, etc. I guess that Yanmar's weigh about half of comparable other engines and that weight is related to lifespan? Time will tell. I don't think this a particular problem for sailboat powerplants. I would own a Yanmar in a heartbeat but my Universal is just fine and I expect it to continue for the foreseeable future. The nice thing about older diesels is that they have NO electronic controls. I know newer diesels can have considerable electronic control and while this is great for efficiency and emissions reasons I don't completely trust electronics in a marine environment, on an engine. Too many variables and you can't fix it yourself. RT

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Fully concur with all being said here. The only other factor is whether you are talking about raw water cooling. If so lifespan will be reduced in a salt water environment due to corrosion. This is what kills the Atomic 4s. Basically a bullet proof motor but they tend to rust out before the wear out. If I were looking to repower I would weigh the options of simplicity (less electronic and turbo) with weight. HP for HP you can find engines that are 100-200 lbs different in weight maybe more. I am always looking at performance implications for the boat and would love a new motor that delivers the same or more hp as my 5432 but was say 200lbs lighter. Lighter may also = shorter lifespan but I would guess improvements in technology on these motors in the past 30 years may have overcome that, but YMMV...

 

[therapidone]

And you can modify THAT, too!

Greetings Frank,

I don't have much to add except to say that even a raw-water cooled engine could be modified to handle fresh-water cooling without switching out the whole power plant.

Not that it matters to this discussion, but if I remember correctly, Moyer even had either a kit or something to modify an Atomic 4 gasoline-fuelled engine to be fresh water cooled, thereby extending the life span of that little 4-banger another lifetime or two. Incidentally, while this isn't strictly a mechanical maintenance item on the diesel itself, the heat exchanger needs to be maintained (it's in an absolutely horrible location, especially if you vessel still has the hot water heater centered below the cockpit floor as does ours) 'cuz it can rust out without proper maintenance...I had ours replaced last year...it was one of the items that the surveyor guessed needed to be looked after when he saw where it was located while completing our survey to purchase Spirit. Rather than squeeze my fat butt into an impossible space to tend to the heat exchanger and then take 3 times the time needed to tend to it, I asked that the heat exhanger be maintained & was told that it was beyond maintaining and needed to be replaced!

Btw, I never understood why gasoline powered cars are ok, but they are to be feared in a sailboat (by some)...especially since I've never heard of nor seen anyone's sailboat ceasing to exist because it had an A-4 in it...having said that, our E/30+'s sport a 2-cylinder diesel & I'm pretty certain they only muster 14 hp...I think auxillary power plans in the earlier ones generated 16hp. Somewhere (the documents that came with out boat?, this website?, the Pacific Seacraft website?, some site on the web for Universal engines?) I came across a document that explains what you need to do to maintain that baby & has the part numbers (e.g., oil filter), suggested oil weight, etc. for all of the models at that time, including the ones in our E/30+'s.

For the 2.5 seasons we've had ours, I change the oil at the end of the season & again just before or immediately after launching & keep good, clean fuel in the tank...she starts up first time, every time (so far).

Good luck in your learning process!

Regards,

Ed

 

[Loren Beach]

A quick note on heat exchangers:
While the exchanger on the marinized Kubota's is hard to service on some boats, at least it *can* be dealt with separately. Engines like the Yanmars combine this function with the manifold on many of their models and the replacement is more complicated and expensive.

I agree with the other posters here that with good routine maint. all these small diesels can outlast several owners.

After we got our boat in '94 (our first inboard engine and first diesel engine boat) I called one of the technitions at Universal/Westerbeke and asked how long before any major service might be needed --- he said that it should be fine until at least 4500 hours, and probably a lot longer.

Loren

 

[CaptnNero]

longevity projection

... he said that it should be fine until at least 4500 hours, and probably a lot longer.

Loren

We do 60-80 hours on our engine per year, so at that rate the engine should be good for at least another 30 years. I know I'll be out of that boat by then.

 

[Captron]

Sailboat Auxiliaries

I'm a bit late on this thread but here's another 2 cents worth ...

My Universal 5432 is the boat's original engine. The engine was made in 1982 the boat is an '83 381 ... I have no idea how many hours are on the engine. The hour meter had 1600 or so on it when we bought the boat but the meter failed soon after. We have put about 400 hours per year on the boat since we've owned it, so the engine has at least 3000 hours now and is still starting easily and running strong although it does emit a little white smoke (always has) ...

One issue for someone buying a new engine would be parts availability in the cruising area ... probably worldwide, Yanmar will have better parts availability although Volvos are common in the Caribbean and Med. (I've also owned Volvo diesels and I wouldn't have another one but that's a long story)

I once owned a Tartan 34 with a gas Atomic 4 ,raw water cooled ... nothing wrong with that set-up either... the engine is smooth, quiet and reliable. Gas is only a problem in a boat because gasoline trapped in the bilge can generate an explosive air-fuel mixture that can be ignited by a spark. Diesel on the other hand won't generate explosive mixtures. It will however, catch fire and a spark could start a diesel fire in a boat bilge. In either case proper maintenance will prevent a catastrophe. Gas engines are common in powerboats where they give excellent performance and longevity without blowing up. While gas explosions happen in boats, if they happened commonly, you wouldn't be able to get insurance on a boat with a gas engine.

Anyway, David Pascoe a marine surveyor whose opinions I respect, has an article on the web concerning sailboat engines that I think is very worth reading.

If you're interested try http://www.docksidereports.com/sail_boat_auxiliaries.htm

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Thanks Capt. Ron,

Great article. I had to go through the re design of my exhaust system he speaks of. The PO had no riser installed from the manifold. I have a little Yanmar 1GM10 and is cost almost 3K for a new head, piston, riser, valves and so on because salt water was flushing back into the cylinder. Rusted out and died! I was at a point where there was a fine line of weather to replace the entire engine. A new one would have probably cost around 7K un installed. I do wish sometimes that I had a bit more that 8.3 hp that my little 1GM10 puts out. There is actually a E-27 on yacht world.com now that has the little Yanmar GM10 that only puts out 6.5 hp. I do love the reliability of my Yanmar. The maintenance really is minimal. Just change the oil, filters, zincs. Keep an eye on the hoses, water pump & belt and flush with fresh water after every use. It is a bit noisy, but not bad now that I have insulated the engine compartment.

 

[Richard Elliott]

Universal vs. Yanmar

Looking to replace an A4 in 1988 I favored Yanmar since most charter boats use Yanmars (read reliable?). I swayed to Universal because at that time, Yanmars did not have glow plugs and were difficult to start in cold weather. I beleive the new Yanmars have glow plugs. However, my M3-18B performed flawlessly for years.