Replacing Fixed Windows Research [Master Thread]

[mherrcat]

Here are a couple of additional pics, one of another view of the interior of the cutout and one of all the sealant that was on the windows when I pulled them.

I'm not sure what the other white sealant is. It wasn't as stretchy as silicone. A friend thought it might be 5200, but I haven't ever worked with it so I didn't know.

 

[Sven]

Mark,

What thickness did you measure for the cabin sides ?

Ours are between 2/3" to 3/4" ... not as uniform as one would have hoped.



-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

I didn't actually measure it but the fiberglass looked like it varied between about 1/4" and 5/16". The panelling and the filler between the panelling and the fiberglass are each 1/4"; it isn't as high quality as say, Baltic Birch. It appears to be a luan type plywood. The total thickness of all three layers is +/- 3/4". The filler only appears to be around the outside of the cutout; it does not appear to run the full length and width behind the panelling.

 

[Sven]

Mark,

...

When I went to clean up our traced ports i found that the bottom edge is really far from straight. It dips down quite noticeably towards the center, about 1/4" or just a tad more, making for what is really a 5-sided rectangle. Was your bottom edge truly straight ? It was the same with all four of ours.

The cabin side is not noticeably curved so it is not to account for that curvature.





-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

Funny that you just posted this; I received drawings today from Bomon (attached) that they made from my latest measurements. I am trying to sort out the type of glass I want. I like the dark Graylite 14, but Bomon says it is 8% light transmission and everything I can find on the web says it is 14%...

Are you referring to the cutouts or the frames themselves? (I guess it would have to be both for the windows to fit...) My frames are pretty straight on the bottom; they may bow slightly, but not 1/4"; maybe 1/16" at the most. The cutouts themselves are another story; they were clearly cut freehand with a jig saw of some sort. With the windows in place and the interior trim ring removed I can see places where the gap between the hull and the part of the frame that fits into the cutout is almost 1/4"; in other spots it is very tight.

The drawings I have attached enlarge the cutout by 1/2" both vertically and horizontally (1/4" on each side); the pointy end is a little more because of the curve. My plan is to make two router templates from the new windows to re-cut the cutouts and make them nice and smooth all the way around. That will also allow for a tighter, more accurate fit between the frame and the cutout. (I hope!)

 

[Sven]

Mark,

Are you referring to the cutouts or the frames themselves?

I went by the screw-heads on the inside. Created a trace from those heads and was going to just add 1/4" all around to allow for the distance between the screw and what it implied the cutout had to be.

I'll have to go back down tomorrow and check again. The bend in the bottom of all the frames is where the frame comes back to join itself. I really don't want to unscrew the frame and have even more exposed port leaks for six weeks of sailing

Thanks for the info.


-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

I would not rely on those screws on the interior trim ring for a measurement. Now that I understand what you are referring to, yes, that point at the bottom of the trim ring where it joins does seem to drop down a little. In removing the four trim rings on my windows I have also noticed that the screws are not necessarily all square to the window frame; in other words I have found some that go in at an angle.

A more accurate way to measure would be from the outside. Measure 13/32" in from the edge of the frame flange on the straight parts; the top the bottom the vertical side and the sloping side. (I think I posted that measurement as 7/16" in an earlier post, but it is more accurately 13/32")That is where the part of the frame that fits through the cutout is on the opposite side of the flange. On the radiuses the measurement is more like 3/8" because the distortion in the aluminum when it was bent makes it a little narrower.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the only reason I am being so anal about my measurements is I want to remove as little material as is necessary to clean up the cutout and make the hull, spacer and interior paneling flush.

I am fairly certain that your windows have the same measurements as mine. If you want to take outside measurements of your windows based on the drawing I have attached, I will check them against my windows this weekend. (Measure the vertical dimensions to the side of the radius where the frame is straight.)

You might be able to use the same measurements that I sent to Bomon...

 

[Sven]

Mark,

I would not rely on those screws on the interior trim ring for a measurement.

I'll use a tracing on the outside instead, as you suggest. Except for the bend in the bottom frame your measurements did indeed seem to match mine pretty accurately when just adding 1/4" as I described so they may be ~ identical.

I've got so many projects on my plate now that I'll soon start hyperventilating

Thanks,



-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

Don't know why I didn't think to suggest this yesterday; you should just remove the interior trim ring from the port or starboard side windows. Then you will be able to get the exact tracing or measurements you are looking for. You will also be able to see what the gap is like between the frame and the interior paneling.

The trim rings are easy to reinstall and I don't think removing them will affect the integrity of the current seal; there was plenty of sealant applied when they were installed and a previous owner probably added some silicone as well. I removed a couple of mine and reinstalled them prior to going whole hog and removing the window completely for rebedding.

 

[mherrcat]

Time to bite the bullet...

OK. One last check with the templates this weekend and then I'll probably order the windows on Monday based on the latest measurements.

I am going to use the Graylite 14 glass, which is very dark, like the glass in my current windows. I like it because from the outside you really can't see into the boat, but you can see out. (Also looks cool during the day with those dark windows!) I have left lights on in the boat at night and from the outside you still can't see in, unless you put your face right up to the window I guess. I looked at a sample today at a glass shop in town; in full sunlight it does not look as dark as in this picture:

http://www.grayglass.net/product.cfm/GrayGlass/GRAYLITE-14/product_id/4173

 

[Sven]

Mark,

I just compared my measurements with yours. Your measurements (back from Bomon) are about an inch more than what I came up with all around (varies with measurement direction of course, but order of magnitude). I'm going to go with your measurements as slightly larger would let me too get a nice tight fit after router-cutting the hole with a template.

Thanks for doing all the hard work

Re. tint: Do you have curtains for the fixed ports ? We were going to add them (there are holes from old ones) but your idea of using tinting might be a good alternative. The NFM opening ports will have curtains and are not tinted.


-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

Yes, some of the measurements on the last Bomon drawing (my measurements) are between about 1/2" to almost 1" larger in some dimensions than on the drawings that Bomon initially sent me from their files. I just compared my template cutout to a tracing of the port side forward and aft cutouts I made last weekend while the windows were out. The new cutouts are 1/4" to 3/8" larger on the top and bottom and 1/4" to about 1/2" larger at the back and front, depending on how you position the template. I knew the angled side and the curve at the front and back were going to be a little larger.

All my windows have Ocean Air shades on them. I guess I don't particularly need the darker glass, but I like it. On a sunny day it still lets in a good deal of light, but really cuts down on glare. Not that anyone is usually inside the cabin looking out those windows anyway...

 

[Sven]

All my windows have Ocean Air shades on them.

I'd considered those but am not sure it would work since the NFM opening ports probably protrude 2-3 inches inside the cabin. Of course, putting in a spacer above and below the port might solve that problem but I don't know how that would look.

Edit ... BTW: I am asking them for a quote based on your measurements and their reply to you. I'm going with 3/8" gray (28 %) glass but otherwise it will probably be an identical order.



-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

IIRC Alain told me that the frames for the 3/8" glass have to be made in two pieces, so essentially they would be the same design as the originals, just different extrusion.

Maybe if we got a couple more people to place orders we could get a price break...



The quote they gave me for 1/4" glass was $288 ea. With Graylite 14 glass the price was $312 ea. Estimated shipping to Bakersfield was $190.

 

[Sven]

IIRC Alain told me that the frames for the 3/8" glass have to be made in two pieces, so essentially they would be the same design as the originals, just different extrusion.

That's interesting. Did you measure the original glass ?

I'm asking because when we cracked one of the ports on La Petite in heavy going many years ago it was only one layer of at least two that cracked. That makes me wonder if the original ones here are dual layer too ?

3/8ths may be overkill but since we're preparing for open ocean I'd rather go too heavy than too light if we can afford it.

You should ask them for a kickback to compensate you for all the work



-Sven

 

[mherrcat]

I have not taken my own windows apart, but the glass in the salvaged windows I have is 3/16" tempered; it is not laminated safety glass.

I thought about the 3/8" glass but figured for my purposes 1/4" would be fine since it is thicker than the original anyway. For the kind of offshore sailing you will be doing I would opt for the 3/8" as well, although I have no offshore experience, so I may be talking through my hat so to speak.

I wish I could get a discount...but I don't think that will happen unless I can get a few more Ericson owners to spring for some windows...hint, hint!

Bomon could have easily and happily created the enlarged drawings themselves based on my instructions. I think I really did it because deep down I must wish I was an architect or mechanical engineer...

 

[sailbags]

Any luck w/ replacement windows?

Hi, Did you have any luck with finding replacement windows that fit, or someone who can fabricate new ones. My frames are in good shape (no corrosion) but the rubber seals are getting old and the plexiglass is checked/cracked. Do you know if it's possible to rebuild these? I did not check the dimensions but my windows look to be the same as yours (from a 1990 38-200). Thanks.

Mark

 

[RobG]

Hey gang

Select Plastics in CT now re-builds the fixed ports for Ericsons. They are well known for re-building the Lewmar "Super Hatches" we all have. I did my hatches last year and they are fantastic. The folks there are great to work with.
http://www.selectplastics.com/

 

[mherrcat]

I checked the Select Plastics site and they are rebuilding the old Lewmar fixed portlights, not the original equipment Ericson portlights.

I believe the original portlights were glass, not plastic. If yours are plastic they may be Lewmar portlights, or a previous owner replaced the glass for some reason. If your original portlights are not Lewmar but are in excellent condition with the exception of the lens, then you should be able to rebuild them yourself and replace the lens and the glazing that holds it in place. If there is any substantial corrosion of the frames (possibly not visible from the outside) then, personally, I don't think it is worth trying to save them...I ventured down this path and, to me, it was not worth the expense in time and materials.

 

[sailbags]

Thanks Rob. Thanks Mark. I'll give them a buzz anyway. I'm pretty sure mine are glass - I've removed them from the boat already and cleaned them up - no corrosion visible so far (nice thing about fresh water boats!). Outer layer of glass is checked/cross-hatched and seal/glazing may be suspect.
I'll post again after talking to them.