1981 E38 anchor locker / bow cleats advice w/pictures

[Bryissa]

1981 E38 anchor locker / bow cleats advice (PICTURES)

So as most projects go I started this with the intent of finishing in a day. I wanted to replace the forward bow cleats and re-bed all forward hardware. The PO has installed a custom aluminum bracket under the weak anchor pan. He wanted it to be extra stout for a below deck windless. It is a pretty well thought out and well built bracket. He exclaimed that in order to tear out the windless the entire bow would have to come off. The forces he didn't fully think out was the downward forces of 150' 5/16 chain, 400' if rode, the weight of the windless (20-30lbs) and the weight of the bracket (30-40lbs). All this weight over the last 20-30 years of beating has pulled down on the cleats and stanchion bases he used to connect the bracket.

After digging out the thin anchor pan, I was able to get to the bolts for the bracket and loosen and remove it. Just to find out while removing all the hardware that the outer two bolts on both cleats where under the fiber glass. I have read a few posts from several years ago about this but the died out without much conversation.

Please look through the photos I have provided and give thoughts, ideas, and what you would do's. I'm a bit worried to cut into the fiberglass, I'm not happy with the bracket pulling down on the cleats and stanchion bases compressing the deck, and I'm not sure if I can properly mount the new cleats over the divots created by the old ones.

My thoughts so far are to try to get the outboard bolts out from topside hoping the fiber will hold the nut underneath. Then clean and re-bed into the existing hole. I'm not completely comfortable with this method since I do use these cleats often for anchoring and need them to be well secured. It makes me nervous to not know what is behind the glass.

In regards the bracket, I'm thinking of taking threads advice and installing marine ply on the bottom and glassing it in. I do not intend to remount the windless since it is virtually useless in such a shallow pan. I need the added space for the two bow anchor chains and rode and don't need the additional weight of the windless. With this said, I haven't ruled out cutting a hole for the chain and rode to drop all the way down into the bow locker. Not sure about how to keep deck wash out of the bilges though since the bow lock doesn't drain out but in.

Please take a look at the pictures I provided as well on the bow chain plate. This might be a good time to re-bed the forstay chain plate.

Cheers,

Bryan

 

[mherrcat]

Your pictures are not showing up...

 

[Loren Beach]

Links (not pork)

It takes the photos about 2 mins to load. I shrank them as much as possible but it takes a few minutes. There are about 34 photos.
Bryan

The site software will allow five attached pics per reply.
If you are loading links to an outside web site, they sometimes display ok and sometimes not... until the link breaks someday, and then ... not at all!

For me, they do not load at all.

Better, if at all possible to keep the size under 800 by 800 or so and post up directly to your reply here, IMHO.

Cheers,
Loren

 

[treilley]

I would advise you to cut out the thin bit of FG under the cleats. It should only be a single layer. I ran across this on my 35-3 last year. I cut mine out with a Dremel and a flexible extension. You will want to remove those nuts so you can overdrill those holes and fill them with thickened epoxy. If that area has moved that much than there is sure to be moisture in the deck. This will make your cleats very weak and likely to pull out under load. Have you metered this area for moisture? The impressions in the deck could be caused from mushy plywood under the cleat.

As long as you have gone this far, do the job correctly and you will sleep better at night.

 

[Bryissa]

I got the photos working.....I think

Here are a few more

 

[Bryissa]

Few More....

I hope these help.

 

[treilley]

That extension on the bow roller is a real Rube Goldberg. What is the point of the pins and chocks? It looks like the lines rub on the toe rail anyway. It would be better to attach the lines to the existing cleats as designed.

 

[Bryissa]

I'm not sure what or who a real Rube Goldberg is but I really like the double bow roller setup.

The posts and chocks have been used to guide the rode onto the cleat. The pins also have a section of pvc tube that goes over them to act as a guide roller when deploying either anchor. I temporarily threw the dock ones around the pins for taking a picture of the port cleat.

When the 5/16 chains are attached to the anchors they both fit in between the posts and into the anchor locker.

 

[Loren Beach]

"pointlessly complicated..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg

Lots of fun cartoon references on the web when you search on his name, too.


And, one of the most famous car commercials in the world is quite a tribute to ol' Rube;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7hGQqxd_C8
(you can check with Snopes.com if you doubt this ... it's all real...)

Loren

 

[Bryissa]

I would advise you to cut out the thin bit of FG under the cleats. It should only be a single layer. I ran across this on my 35-3 last year. I cut mine out with a Dremel and a flexible extension. You will want to remove those nuts so you can overdrill those holes and fill them with thickened epoxy. If that area has moved that much than there is sure to be moisture in the deck. This will make your cleats very weak and likely to pull out under load. Have you metered this area for moisture? The impressions in the deck could be caused from mushy plywood under the cleat.

As long as you have gone this far, do the job correctly and you will sleep better at night.

What is involved in metering the area for moisture? Is this simply the process of checking the core to be solid? I do want to make sure that these cleats are very secure.

 

[treilley]

You will need a moisture meter and know how to use it. A good surveyor can do this for you. This should have been part of the survey when you bought the boat.

 

[Loren Beach]

Meter Expertise

You will need a moisture meter and know how to use it. A good surveyor can do this for you. This should have been part of the survey when you bought the boat.

Agree with Tim (which is not unusual).
Having said that, these little meters are a lot more common than they used to be. Recently, I hosted a visiter for some show-n-tell on our boat that had flown up to the NW from SoCal to shop for 34 footers. He had asked if he could stop by on his way back from looking at an Ericson up in Seattle and look thru ours for project ideas.

He had a new moisture meter and carried it with him to check out decks on all boats he looked at, before deciding to proceed to an offer an be out of pocket $300++ dollars/boat for a survey.
He felt that when shopping for a boat for tens of thousands of dollars, the cost of the meter had paid for itself the first time he used it.

After getting my permission, politely, he tried it around our deck surface and cockpit sole. Needle stayed steady in the green throughout. He said it clearly could match up the areas on some other boats where either the broker had predicted some softness or walking on it had indicated some inappropriate "give."
I thought his research theory was good, since I know someone personally that paid about $300. for a survey and then, based on that survey, decided not to finish the purchase.

Sidebar: If his meter had shown some potential moisture, I would have followed up with some core sampling and fixed any affected area.
I mean, really, if most owners did their due diligence preventative maintenance as they went along, we would not all be quite so dependent and beholden to surveyors in the first place...
But that's the way human nature is, I guess.

As to how much time and practice it takes to use one, I certainly have no clue. I would hope that the learning curve is not too long or steep. :nerd:

Cheers,
Loren

 

[Bryissa]

Does anyone have any experience with these moisture meters or what type to purchase. I have looked online at about a dozen ranging from $100 - $500 and they all claim to do the same thing. This seems like a great investment as I have a few other questionable spots that I don't want to drill into to test.

 

[Emerald]

Make sure the meter is really meant for FRP. If it does not say so specifically, do not assume it will work properly on fiberglass. I went through this a couple years ago, and perhaps things have changed, but after talking with several different surveyors, wood workers, marinas etc., I was consistently told that the $100 meters didn't work properly on FRP and you needed to get into the more expensive ones like those offered here:

http://www.jroverseas.com/

At that point, I borrowed a meter for what I needed and kept going. If you find an FRP meter that is good for the $100 mark, please post information as this would be a nice thing to have at that price.

 

[Bryissa]

I recall paying nearly $500 dollars for a survey two years ago. This is my first boat and didn't really know what to expect from the surveyor. He did do a tap test on the deck but no fancy tools were used just a mallet. Some of you Northern California people might no the name, Joseph Rodgers. He came highly recommended by several people I talked to in the Monterey Bay area.

 

[treilley]

First check with your surveyor. He should have mapped out the deck with a meter showing areas of concern. If he didn't then you did not get what you payed for.

Here are some good articles a friend of mine wrote on the use of moisture meters:

http://sbo.sailboatowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102980&highlight=moisture+meter

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/moisture_meter

BTW, in the second article, the example of Utterly Saturated is my boat. I rebedded those cleats and found the core to be bone dry.

One thing you have to remember. If you use the meter correctly and it shows wet, it MIGHT be wet. Other things can cause the meter to read wet. If it shows dry then you should be good to go.

 

[gfilipi]

Moisture Meter

Hi Bryan,

I bought a moisture meter last year because I had to track down how far the core was wet. My surveyor's moisture meter detected wetness and mapped it out for me. He showed me some ways that would let it dry over time. IE...pilot holes and heat lights underneath etc. As a result I got a good price on my boat. I ended up grinding out about 8 foot from underneath on the port side and put in new balsa and reglassed it back in. It was very laborous and I bought a meter to keep track on any potential core leaks and stop them because I didn't want to do it again. I rebed all the top sides and drilled the holes larger and filled with epoxy. The meter was about $600 bucks. I'm in the Bay Area, if you want to borrow it to check moisture you can. I'll send you an email.

Gene

 

[Bryissa]

Gene,

That would be greatly appreciated. I will check my mail and get in touch with you.

Bryan