E38 Rudder bearing (bushing?) maintenance

[footrope]

I've been reading some good threads on the rudder bearing and bushing maintenance that some of you have done. It helped me a lot when I dropped the rudder yesterday in the yard to clear the way for the prop shaft to be removed. We dropped it before putting the stands in place, and only had to lift the stern about 2 inches to clear the top of the shaft. If I can take some pictures later I'll post them.

The rudder really had very little play, but since I had to drop it anyway, I thought I'd investigate the bearings. There were no bushings on the rudder shaft anywhere and the rudder tube mounted in the boat is in good shape - no evidence of water getting in or corrosion on the rudder shaft. The shaft was well-greased. There was one shallow groove scored into the shaft that appears very old, so I don't think I'll worry about it. The rudder took some persuasion get it to drop, but no unusual force was required.

Working in the aft lazarette facing forward must be similar to sitting down inside a 30-gallon trash can. And you can't see what you're working on except with a mirror. To drop the rudder I loosened only the left side cable eyebolt. I eventually removed it to get access to the two bolts I needed to loosen to release the shaft from the quadrant. I could not get enough turn on the right side eyebolt nut because the cockpit drain tube was in the way. I'll probably have to get that out of the way for the reinstallation and cable tensioning.

I then pushed out the through-bolt that goes through the rudder shaft and the quadrant - not too hard to get to the nut, but also not much room to swing a small hammer to get it moving. I later realized the little cutout in the plywood bulkhead is perfectly cut to get to the left side hardware. We turned the rudder all the way to the left to line it up and to make it easier to get to both ends of the bolt. A screwdriver, used as a long punch, protruded through that bulkhead and it was easy to aim the hammer for tapping on it.

The deck plate appears to have a bearing attached with 4 screws, and the top of the rudder tube has three bolts securing some kind of bearing I think. I am debating whether I need to re-bed the deck plate while all this is apart. It doesn't leak now and the old sealer (factory) is likely to be a pre-historic, and therefore petrified, polyurethane, and a pain to clean up. All in all there is very little room between the top of the tube and the bottom of the deck, just enough for the quadrant and some clearance. So all the bearing surfaces are within the top 6 inches of the shaft.

Is there anything tricky about removing and installing the bearings? I can't see what they are made of. I'm imagining they are machined tubular bearings of some kind. Thanks in advance.

I'm at Delta Marine in South Park, by the way. They have a low volume small-boat yard alongside their mega-yacht operation. They have two full-time people to take care of us little guys. Yesterday was a nice day to pull a boat out of the water.

 

[Loren Beach]

"bigger hammer" (?) theory

Thanks much for the commentary -- working back in there must have been about as much fun as... being in that area in my boat.

One minor note, about your hammer comment -- one of THE handiest tools on our boat is a short-handle "drilling hammer" I bought at Harbor Freight several years ago. I call it 'the Thudder'.
Many times I need to deliver some controlled-but-considerable force to a chisel or other mis-applied hand tool (!) and have only inches of room to swing it.

And, please do post up some pics.

Best,
Loren

 

[stbdtack]

Craig,
The bearings are bronze and if there is very little play in them, i would leave them in place. I would definitely replace the packing at the top of the shaft and check the Zerk fittings in the tube that get grease to the bearings.

Its not a tough job to replace the bearings, but dropping the rudder is pretty easy once you ve done it so I would wait till you get more wear.

ben

 

[footrope]

Thanks, Ben. I need to take a couple pictures. The screw-on access cover lifts to reveal the top of the rudder shaft and a view of the thru-bolt. Is there supposed to be an o-ring or other seal up there?

I think I will just wait on the bearings since the work is piling up.

I will have to slather the shaft with grease when I re-install, there are no zerks on my tube, no evidence there ever were any at all. quite a bit of variability in the Ericson line in this regard.

Here are some closeups of the scoring on the shaft. They're down low, about two inches above where the shaft exits the bottom of the boat. Been there a long time.

 

[u079721]

On our 38 the aft cabin was my wife's area, while I took the V berth. But the "Aft lazarette" as you put it, along with all of the maintenance associated with it, was my area. It became known as MY aft cabin, with the implied threat that if I misbehaved it was the only place I would be allowed.

I'm reasonably slender and had no trouble getting down inside mine. But I've got some friends who could not possibly fit through that opening. I guess they would have to hire out any "aft cabin" maintenance tasks!

 

[stbdtack]

Craig,
The only seal is an o-ring for the cover screw cap on the access fitting. The scoring you show doesnt look like an issue at all. Probably a good place for grease to sit.

I replaced the lower bearing with UHMW so it never needs to be greased. I coated the bearings with Tef-gel before reinstalling. Its a thick, tenacious anti-seize thats very waterproof. good luck

 

[footrope]

I'm lucky to be sort of skinny also, Steve. Being almost 5' 11" doesn't help, though. Earlier this year I discovered that facing backwards and ducking under the stern coaming can be done, but it's harder to get twisted back out. And the claustrophobia possibility is greater. I have a hydronic heater installed on the slope of the transom, up high.

I will see if there is evidence of an o-ring, or a groove for one. I don't recall one on the cover. Tef-gel comes in larger quantities than a little tube, then. Thanks.

 

[Dan Morehouse]

rudder shaft cover plate

I will also be checking my rudder shaft cover plate when I get back to the boat in June. I didn't notice any O-ring when I had it off in April, and there was water visible down inside the shaft. Upon measuring, the water level was found to be higher than the waterline of the boat, suggesting it was rainwater via the cover and not seawater via who-knows-where.
The reason I removed the cover was to check the play at the top bearing. I had noticed while sailing downwind that there was a faint "clunk" every time the boat rolled past vertical with a corresponding change in load imposed on the rudder from one side to the other. With cover removed, the play at the top of the shaft was visible. Although I'm having the boat hauled for bottom paint in June, I wonder if this play can be addressed from the top without dropping the entire rudder?

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[footrope]

Dan,

To access the upper bearing you have to drop the rudder shaft down below the bearing. You wouldn't have to take the rudder out entirely, but you would have to be on the hard and would have to take off the quadrant. Still quite a bit of work. The rudder should be propped up off the ground, maybe about a foot, and the shaft secured so it doesn't rattle around.

I have the 6' 6" keel and I'm setting on a 1" piece of wood. We had to raise the stern a couple inches to get the shaft out completely. I still haven't remembered to check for the o-ring groove. Maybe tomorrow. Let us know what you find.

Cheers,

 

[WBurgner]

Aft Lazarette

Glad to see someone else has been spending time in the lazarette. I spent the last three weekends in there removing the water heater, installing a rudder sensor, and then reinstalling the heater. At 6'5" it was not a great place to work and having a nasty cold made it all that much more fun. Going in facing aft and then turning around once fully in was the only way I could get in there

Here is a question. The bulkhead separating the steering gear from the lazarette was removable on my boat, but does not seem to be a real firm installation. Is this something that was done by a PO or is that bulkhead removable on all 38s? Anyone done anything to beef it up?

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Bill,
On my 38, there is a removable panel in the bulkhead separating the starboard lazarette from the space under the cockpit sole. There is a non-removable smaller bulkhead separating the aft lazarette from the same space. The steering gear is accessed by removing the panel in the starboard lazarette. And although the bulkhead is tabbed to the hull, the connection does not inspire admiration. It would probably be no match for a water heater off its moorings.
And on the subject of water heaters, I'm installing an 11 gallon Isotherm on mine and I'm giving some thought to how it might be done so as to make it more quickly removable. Since it blocks access to the steering gear and any attendant belowdeck autopilot gear, it would seem that making removal & reinstallation simpler & quicker would be a worthwhile effort. Any thoughts?

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[rwthomas1]

You haven't lived until you have performed the gymnastics required to install; a)belowdeck autopilot, b)wiring to the instruments/radar/chartplotter at the helm, c)removed the quadrant/rudder, d)replaced the cockpit drain hoses... All on an E38.

Yes, the bulkhead on the inner wall of the Stbd. lazarette hatch on my E38 is removable. The only access to the steering gear and back side of the engine/transmission. My water heater is also installed in front of the steering gear blocking all access to it. I have considered doing two things; Moving the water heater into the aft lazarette area. Its just hoses and a 120volt line. The square Isotherm would probably work. Don't think I could fit the SafeStor I have now through the hatch. The other idea was to fit the SafeStor with quick disconnects on all plumbing to speed the removal process. Since the new belowdeck autopilot installation access to the steering gear needs to be better. RT

 

[footrope]

I will post a picture this weekend of the aft lazarette of the 'Project that features a removable panel that permits hand access to the quadrant. The boat came with this access cutout. Standing on your head is still required for eye-balling the area from aft, though. I have a 12-gallon water heater stuffed under the cockpit sole, compliments of the PO. It's forward of the quadrant and is completely in the way of everything, including a visual of the quadrant area.

I also have the large removable panel in the starboard lazarette, which is nice for looking at the back of the engine, the transmission, and the muffler. Even so, most work is done with one hand only, hence the need to grow extra fingers before working in there.

 

[WBurgner]

I also have access to the area behind the engine from the Starboard Lazarette, but that area is consumed by a 3.5kw generator. Nice to have when it is working, but it makes it impossible to get at the quadrant from that access panel.

The bulkhead in the aft lazarette is held in place at the top by a strip of half inch plywood, the same material as the bulkhead itself. There is no support at the bottom other than the weight of a shelf projecting aft that holds the water heater. The shelf is glass and aluminum honeycomb and I suspect it is something added by a previous owner. I am considering adding blocks at the hull forward of the bulkhead that will keep it from moving forward and aft in rough weather. If it were to move forward enough it might interfer with the rudder sensure bracket attached to the aft portion of the quadrant.

I look forward to seeing pictures of what others have.

 

[rwthomas1]

I also have the large removable panel in the starboard lazarette, which is nice for looking at the back of the engine, the transmission, and the muffler. Even so, most work is done with one hand only, hence the need to grow extra fingers before working in there.

I am 6ft and 220lbs. Somehow I can crush myself up into a little ball and wedge in behind the engine/trans. I am also able to rotate in from the lazarette area so that my head points aft and my feet stick out into the lazarette and under the trash can bin. This way I can access the steering gear when the water heater is removed. The shelf for the water heater does break my back in two quite nicely during this or chew into the ribs on my right side. Every once in while muscle cramps will hit and then I can't get out or move at all. Such fun. I cannot imagine trying to work on anything down there while underway. Glad to hear that a water heater will fit in the aft area. Thats the direction I am leaning. Ain't boats fun!?! Pics of the whole deal once I put it all back together. RT

 

[footrope]

Rob, we need a pic of you at work in there, too.

Someday we may have to decide on what to do about the water heater, but hopefully not for a few years - or not while we own the boat. We have the diesel-fired hydronic cabin heater with an added heat exchanger for instant hot water, so the a large capacity water heater isn't quite as important now.

Here's what my aft lazarette access looks like. The access cover just force-fits around the drain hoses, not secured in any other way. I normally take the spare anchor out when I'm in there. The shot looking forward at the stern tube and the drain tubes was shot by holding the camera at arms length down in the lazarette and shooting.

And I found that the cover over the rudder tube does have a groove for an o-ring. It was raining too hard today to take it off and go find one.

 

[Dan Morehouse]

I checked the diameter of the cylindrical Isotherm against the opening of the starboard cockpit locker before I bought it, and it barely went through. The aft lazarette opening is even smaller...a shame, since it would be a good alternative to rendering the steering gear/autopilot inaccessible. But I'm going to have another look at the divider behind the rudder shaft to see if making a removable section in it would be feasible.
Regarding the rudder shaft cap: it sounds like there is supposed to be an o-ring to seal this cap. Any idea where one could get an o-ring that size? I'd like to pump the water out of my rudder shaft & prevent any more from getting in!

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[Dan Morehouse]

Rudder shaft cap O-ring

Finally got to the boat & checked the cap on the rudder shaft. It looks like an O-ring 4" in diameter & 1/8" thick would be a fit for sealing under this plate. Has anyone actually found & installed a replacement for this? Water definately finds its way down the rudder shaft without an O-ring.
Pushing back & forth sideways on the rudder blade reveals some play at both the top and bottom bearings...maybe around 1/32 or so on both. Definately less than 1/16, but enough to produce slightly audible "clunks" at both top and bottom. Does this sound like a "watch and see" problem, or an "attack it now" problem?

Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"

 

[rwthomas1]

I was able to find a 1/8" o-ring of the appropriate size but the groove in the plate is not deep enough to allow the plate to be fully screwed down with the o-ring in place. At least on my boat. I resorted to bedding the plate in Plumbers Putty. It should keep the water out as it is what I use to bed sink/shower wastes..... Regarding the play in the rudder bearings. I would take the wait and see approach and keep it all well lubed. With less than a 1/16" of play it will be hard to find thin enough material to shim it and have it stay in place. It is also hard to justify tearing apart the whole thing, replacing the bushings for not much wear. Then again, the clunking could drive you crazy.... RT

 

[FullTilt E28]

Nice thread - note about those white drain hoses

Ok so those ribbed white drain hoses ie original. I have them also. My electrician buddy spotted them and said get rid of those as soon as you can. Seems he's seen quite a few split and fail. Thats next on my list of things to do once we finish up our deck gear and rigging update.

So if your cramming your self down in the aft locker might as well pull out the old drain hoses and find a replacement for them.

I was told to go with the good stuff and not worry about it anymore.