Shopping for Sails - Questions

[Prairie Schooner]

Replacing our baggy old mainsail and furled jib (currently ~110%) is next on the list of upgrades for our dear old Ericson. This is our first time purchasing sails. We went to the Newport (RI) Boat Show this past Thursday and spoke, at least briefly, with five sailmakers. Two of them we asked for quotes. Both are long-established companies, now aligned with one of the big franchises, and we were talking with principals. New England has a wide variety of cruisers and racers so they’ve seen it all.

Our pitch to them is that we will be cruising, but both of us have racing backgrounds. We’re likely to sail the boat a bit harder than some cruisers, go out in weather others might not. We’ll do day sailing, hopefully 3-5 three-day trips and 1-2 weeks-long trips per year. We plan to do some day-long club races, but no weekly round-the-buckets. Which isn’t to say we’re anything like GP rockstars. And we’re, well, um, older. I know you don’t have to kill your sails to have a lovely day on the water, and with all the stress, you might not arrive much more than a half hour earlier. But, I’ve come to realize that optimizing the boat and trimming sails is one of the ways I enjoy sailing. We can’t afford top-of-the-line, but don’t want to be disappointed. Rather than ultimate performance out of the box, our preference is good performance that lasts more years. It could be that I'm just an old guy who is imagining himself in a Ferrari and all I'm going to do is go down the street for groceries. Kind of like putting racing tires on a Camry.

The quotes are back already and the differences in recommendations is interesting.

Crosscut v Tri-Radial
One loft firmly recommended tri-radial construction with appropriate cloth, saying the sails would hold their shape better when pressed and much longer into their life. The other said the difference wasn’t great enough to warrant the extra expense.

Polyester v Laminate
One loft said laminate wouldn’t offer enough performance bonus to justify the price, and steered us toward an upper range Dacron. This is the same loft that recommended crosscut. The other recommended Contender CDX Pro laminate, saying it would last as long as Dacron but hold shape longer into its life.

Full Battens v 2+2
Two full battens (upper) and two partial (lowers) was recommended because the extra flexibility lower down would give greater ability to shape the sail. The advocate for full battens said this was true, but as the sail ages there will be uneven stretch in the lower front quarter of the sail which will create bad sail shape. Full battens would mean a sacrifice in flexibility early to buy better shape later. (I asked if he could add full battens at year 5. He said it would be a botch retrofit that wouldn’t work well.)

Furling Luff material for Jib Reefing
One loft said he uses rope because the foam compresses over time and doesn’t work as well as the sail ages. The other prefers the more even distribution of shape from 'crescented' foam and hasn’t had a problem with deterioration/compression.

Both lofts made the following recommendations:
For local conditions and our sailing preferences, go with a 135% jib. (I’ve read some of the discussions here regarding jib size. We also have an original 'storm jib' and a 150, both more lightly used, as well as a more recent second-hand asymmetrical spinnaker.)
Rather than three mainsail reefs, use two and place them a little higher.
Switch to a loose footed main.

To save a few shekels, would it make sense to go with one sail more performance oriented (jib or main) and the other more sturdy cruiser? If so, which?

Any and all opinions and experiences are welcome. I don’t even know what a rope 'bulked' luff looks like, so If you have pictures we’d like to see them.

I found these threads here:
32-3 new sails https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/32-3-sails-and-compare-the-5-annapolis-sail-lofts.16962/page-2
34-2 headsail size https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/headsail-size-selection-e34-2.19524/#post-152362
FX v Ullman https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/fx-vs-ullman-sails.18947/
jib shredded https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/it-was-an-expensive-weekend-jib-shredded.17859/

If there are other conversations here that I missed, I appreciate a link.

Thanks much!
Jeff & Donna

 

[Christian Williams]

For what it's worth to you, I'm ordering new sails this week so I can retire to the garage my very heavy offshore sails, which remain in excellent condition. I'm still considering triradial construction, which allows even lighter-weight cloth. Yeah, but it looks funny. Crosscut is probably where I'll stay. Here's the current quote:

 

[Frank Langer]

We bought from a local loft that measured our boat and made the sails at their loft. Given all your choices above, we decided on tri radial dacron with two reefs, partial battens, foam luff, 125% headsail, and I'm happy with them after two years. It's easy to see how tri radial minimizes stretch and stress on the sails. Even better, for budget reasons I had decided on tri radial headsail and crosscut mainsail, but the loft phoned next day, said they had some end of roll sail cloth that they wanted to move out, so they would make me a tri radial mainsail at no extra charge.
Frank

 

[Slick470]

I bought a new furling headsail a couple seasons back and went through a lot of the size, material, and construction questions with my sailmaker. I was looking for an all purpose furling sail that would hold it's shape well when reefed, be good for family cruising, but still fast for racing. I ended up with a 140% dacron tri-radial with a rope luff.

The size was recommended by the sail maker due to the geometry of our rig and allowed for the minimum overlap with the main that the sail maker found appropriate. I went with dacron for budget reasons. Tri-radial because it should hold it's shape longer and the sail maker assured me that they use a different dacron weave that allows them to orient the panels to align the loads an prevent weird shape as the sail ages. The sail maker strongly recommended rope luff over foam since I wanted to sail reefed as the rope holds the luff shape better than the foam which can compress a lot easier.

After using the sail for a couple seasons now, I'm really happy with it. My only complaints, if I have any, are tied to how robust the sail is. It's a bit of a pain to get it on and off the furler and flake it due to how stiff the luff is. Once it's up, its great though.

Sadly, my sailmaker has retired, so I'll need to find a new one for the next sail.

 

[Christian Williams]

Sailmaker recommendations vary. Foam luffs on my boats have performed well and are standard around here.

 

[N.A.]

I have also replaced sails recently.

FWIW:

1. I went with a loft that has a local person (David Hodges, Ullman/Santa Cruz Sails; well know locally and well respected). I have been very happy. He is nowhere near you, but my point is that half the value has been his coming to the boat, assessing things, and making various recommendations while looking at it, measuring, and talking with me. The difference in price vs. some offshore place has been absolutely made up by the benefits/savings due to his excellent advice. I might thus recommend you find someone similar local to you, though you sound like you are starting with much more knowledge than I have been..

2. My quotes are eerily similar to Christian's, even though my boat is smaller (34 vs 38). However, I have paid extra for the work to be done locally - personal preference. Hodges can also do local design/offshore manufacturing and save some. Other places may be similar.

3. I got a 130% jib. Wind tends to be strong out here. Also "7.46 Contender Premium Dacron". The main is the same cloth, but 8.46oz. Word was lighter cloth (6.5 oz for jib) would make sense in Southern CA, but less so up here (SF Bay) due to typical windspeeds. East coast is... maybe more like SoCal in terms of light winds? Anyway, that 130% is a lot of sail to manhandle in my no longer young state... lighter would have been nicer, but apparently insufficiently durable for my use model.

4. I was strongly advised to get foam... by someone knowledgeable in Seattle. Then... David (the sailmaker) talked me back out of it -- his view was that the foam makes for such a big roll at the luff that any benefit in terms of sail shape when partly furled is defeated by the spoiling of the airflow over the leading edge of the sail. Since I tend to not roller furl part way anyway, but just pinch and move my fairleads back as the wind builds, I decided to skip the foam. YMMV.

5. I am getting my jib clew cut high enough to get some visibility under it, sacrificing speed for ease of sailing.

6. I got 3 reefs in the main, but that was partly about rules for a race I aspire to; two deeper ones would otherwise probably have been fine for me. [Rigging downhauls from the reef clews appears the be frankly awesome. I am in the process of setting that up; if you have not, and are older, then I recommend it based on what I have seen. Seems pretty simple to set up, by the way.]

7. I have 2 full battens up top, and 3/4 length down low (all tapered). This is working well for me so far. No other boats on my dock seem to have foam luffs.... maybe that's a local thing.

 

[nquigley]

I've just ordered a new main from Willis Sails.
The sailmaker uses an interesting design feature I hadn't seen before: battens in pockets that are parallel with the boom instead of 90 degrees to the leech. The main benefit is they lie perfectly flat when flaking the sail on the boom. (they also lie in-line with airflow over the sail, but that's probably a minimal benefit)

Design features:
7.3 oz premium dacron / cross-cut (237 sq ft)
3 reefs, 4 tapered 'short' fiberglass battens, triple-stitched seams, heavy duty reinforcing, low friction rings and conventional pressed rings at leech reef points, over-the-head leech tensioning line, dyneema dogbones, insignia, sail number
Built entirely at the loft: NZ$2900 (~US$2000); air freight to US addresses ~NZ$750 (~US$500) (but, I'll be picking it up during a November vacation trip)

 

[Christian Williams]

battens in pockets that are parallel with the boom instead of 90 degrees to the leech

This sent me scurrying to the photo files. Looks like mine are parallel to the boom, which I take to be standard. No?

The first is the 32-3 UK Tape Drive, which had two full length battens. Two worked fine. The second photo is the 381, with all full length battens. I will continue with four, mostly because the sailmaker and I believe them to be helpful with my current lazyjacks. And head to wind, the sail hardly seems to luff.

...

 

[nquigley]

Full battens are, of course, horizontal - to intersect with the mast track a 90 degrees. Maybe it’s old-school, but short battens used to meet the leech at 90 degrees. This pic is the 32-3 at sailboatdsta.com

 

[Prairie Schooner]

For what it's worth to you, I'm ordering new sails this week so I can retire to the garage my very heavy offshore sails, which remain in excellent condition. I'm still considering triradial construction, which allows even lighter-weight cloth. Yeah, but it looks funny. Crosscut is probably where I'll stay. Here's the current quote:

Christian,
Is it largely aesthetic concerns that make you lean toward crosscut? To my mind that's perfectly legitimate. I spent much of my career designing stuff so people would buy it because of the way it looks. The tri-radial makes sense to the 'intuitive engineer' in me and I don't have a preference between the appearance of either. But I haven't seen any independent studies confirming durability of performance. We want the best shape for as long as possible. To define that, we have a vague ten year plan for owning the boat. At 67, we're in good condition now, but who knows.
What are the other factors you're reviewing to decide between crosscut and tri-radial?
Of the five mainsails quoted, the prices range from $2,626 (Crosscut Dacron 348 OC MT) to $4,316 (Tri-Radial CDX Pro laminate). Our P measurement is about 3' shorter than yours. Those prices reflect a 15% boat show discount.
If you were going to try to save money on one of the sails (jib or main), which one would you economize on?
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Prairie Schooner]

We bought from a local loft that measured our boat and made the sails at their loft. Given all your choices above, we decided on tri radial dacron with two reefs, partial battens, foam luff, 125% headsail, and I'm happy with them after two years. It's easy to see how tri radial minimizes stretch and stress on the sails. Even better, for budget reasons I had decided on tri radial headsail and crosscut mainsail, but the loft phoned next day, said they had some end of roll sail cloth that they wanted to move out, so they would make me a tri radial mainsail at no extra charge.
Frank

Thanks for the info Frank. Congrats on your good fortune with the mainsail upgrade! Why had you decided to economize on that in the first place, over the jib?
In addition to the sailmaker who recommends the jib padding of rope over foam, I read online that some people feel the foam gets a memory of the furl direction which makes it hurt luff shape on the opposite tack. Do you find that?

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I bought a new furling headsail a couple seasons back and went through a lot of the size, material, and construction questions with my sailmaker. I was looking for an all purpose furling sail that would hold it's shape well when reefed, be good for family cruising, but still fast for racing. I ended up with a 140% dacron tri-radial with a rope luff.

The size was recommended by the sail maker due to the geometry of our rig and allowed for the minimum overlap with the main that the sail maker found appropriate. I went with dacron for budget reasons. Tri-radial because it should hold it's shape longer and the sail maker assured me that they use a different dacron weave that allows them to orient the panels to align the loads an prevent weird shape as the sail ages. The sail maker strongly recommended rope luff over foam since I wanted to sail reefed as the rope holds the luff shape better than the foam which can compress a lot easier.

After using the sail for a couple seasons now, I'm really happy with it. My only complaints, if I have any, are tied to how robust the sail is. It's a bit of a pain to get it on and off the furler and flake it due to how stiff the luff is. Once it's up, its great though.
. . .

Hi Andy,
Your loft's recommendations regarding the foam luff match what one of the makers told us. It makes sense to me. I've never noticed one, but it sounds like the rope would look really clumsy. Do you have any pictures of what it looks like fully out? I can't seem to find any online.
What percentage of sailing time do you reckon you have the jib roller reefed at least some?
Do you take your jib off after every sail?
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Christian Williams]

I read online that some people feel the foam gets a memory of the furl

Bah, nah, so what, etc. Translate: whatever the sailmaker heartfully recommends. .

save money on one of the sails

Crosscut Dacron is cheapest and lasts longer than more sophisticated cloth. Any choice of higher quality or cut is a performance or aesthetic choice, the reasons for which are all good and make faster, lighter sails. Lighter I want. Performance is a joke for me, with a fixed three-blade prop and zero tolerance for sailing in slop at 2 knots, or competing at windward mark roundings.

The easiest choice factor for cruisers is what looks right, feels right, and satisfies the mysterious inward need. The money ain't all that different.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I have also replaced sails recently.

FWIW:

1. I went with a loft that has a local person (David Hodges, Ullman/Santa Cruz Sails; well know locally and well respected). I have been very happy. He is nowhere near you, but my point is that half the value has been his coming to the boat, assessing things, and making various recommendations while looking at it, measuring, and talking with me. The difference in price vs. some offshore place has been absolutely made up by the benefits/savings due to his excellent advice. I might thus recommend you find someone similar local to you, though you sound like you are starting with much more knowledge than I have been..

2. My quotes are eerily similar to Christian's, even though my boat is smaller (34 vs 38). However, I have paid extra for the work to be done locally - personal preference. Hodges can also do local design/offshore manufacturing and save some. Other places may be similar.

3. I got a 130% jib. Wind tends to be strong out here. Also "7.46 Contender Premium Dacron". The main is the same cloth, but 8.46oz. Word was lighter cloth (6.5 oz for jib) would make sense in Southern CA, but less so up here (SF Bay) due to typical windspeeds. East coast is... maybe more like SoCal in terms of light winds? Anyway, that 130% is a lot of sail to manhandle in my no longer young state... lighter would have been nicer, but apparently insufficiently durable for my use model.

4. I was strongly advised to get foam... by someone knowledgeable in Seattle. Then... David (the sailmaker) talked me back out of it -- his view was that the foam makes for such a big roll at the luff that any benefit in terms of sail shape when partly furled is defeated by the spoiling of the airflow over the leading edge of the sail. Since I tend to not roller furl part way anyway, but just pinch and move my fairleads back as the wind builds, I decided to skip the foam. YMMV.

5. I am getting my jib clew cut high enough to get some visibility under it, sacrificing speed for ease of sailing.

6. I got 3 reefs in the main, but that was partly about rules for a race I aspire to; two deeper ones would otherwise probably have been fine for me. [Rigging downhauls from the reef clews appears the be frankly awesome. I am in the process of setting that up; if you have not, and are older, then I recommend it based on what I have seen. Seems pretty simple to set up, by the way.]

7. I have 2 full battens up top, and 3/4 length down low (all tapered). This is working well for me so far. No other boats on my dock seem to have foam luffs.... maybe that's a local thing.

Thank you, N.A.
1. Both lofts have established local roots. One is an Elvstrom affiliate and his sails would be made in Denmark, IIRC. The other is a Quantum affiliate. I don't remember construction locale details from him. We have strong recommendations about him from friends. Both makers would come to the boat to measure.
3. Winds have been stronger than usual this year. A good night out would be 12, gusts to 18. Windy would be 17, gusts to 23. Other times, less. Right now, I could be talked into something as small as a 120%.
4. Yeah, that's interesting. We're trying to get a fix on how much we're likely to roller reef. We've become comfortable with reefing the main. Does anyone else have thoughts on how detrimental the bulk of luff 'enhancement' is to jib performance?
5. We're trying to pay attention to clew height as we sail now. Seems that a higher clew would also mean the foot will take less of a beating on the lifelines.
6. Two of our current reef clews are lead aft. We do have at least one open clutch we could run a reef tack line through.
7. Thanks for feedback on battens. Interesting about the foam. I'm formulating a notion that this choice will depend on how often we're likely to roller reef. A smaller jib would mean less reefing, no?

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I've just ordered a new main from Willis Sails.
. . . .
Design features:
7.3 oz premium dacron / cross-cut (237 sq ft)
3 reefs, 4 tapered 'short' fiberglass battens, triple-stitched seams, heavy duty reinforcing, low friction rings and conventional pressed rings at leech reef points, over-the-head leech tensioning line, dyneema dogbones, insignia, sail number
Built entirely at the loft: NZ$2900 (~US$2000); air freight to US addresses ~NZ$750 (~US$500) (but, I'll be picking it up during a November vacation trip)

Thanks.
Of the three reefs, do you mean some of the rings (cringles?) are low-friction and some are steel? How is it decided which is which?
How is an "over-the-head" leech line different from the regular kind?
Did you discuss pros and cons regarding main batten lengths?
Good luck with your pickup.
Jeff

 

[N.A.]

3. Winds have been stronger than usual this year. A good night out would be 12, gusts to 18. Windy would be 17, gusts to 23. Other times, less. Right now, I could be talked into something as small as a 120%.

5. We're trying to pay attention to clew height as we sail now. Seems that a higher clew would also mean the foot will take less of a beating on the lifelines.

7. ... depend on how often we're likely to roller reef. A smaller jib would mean less reefing, no?

3. Winds are highly reliable / predictable / consistent around here, so I basically change from my 130% to 90% in late April, and back in late Sept - ish.
For me, the 90% is fine unfurled up to 30 kts (as verified just yesterday) with increasingly reduced main. Perhaps more relevant for windspeeds you mention, the 90% is fine for me down to 10 kts (by which time full main also), but below about 12 I am definitely wishing I had more sail.

Conversely, the 130% seems good from 'low" (maybe 5 -- below 5 I don't bother to go out) to maybe 13 apparent (edit: I went back to look and adjusted that number), but weather helm (I know... an oversized jib should result in lee helm. But weather is what I get, perhaps due to heel angle) is increasingly irritating after maybe 12 kts. By 23 kts I would be badly overpowered and definitely want to reduce from 130%, either by roller furling or changing sails. I'd have the 130 furled partially or fully by 17.

5, 7: A higher clew, in addition to the lifelines and visibility benefits, will reduce jib size - so a higher clew 130% might be "the same as" as lower clew 120 or 125 in terms of sail area. I am way too lazy to be changing that huge jib by myself, unless I expect the wind to require a different sail for a long time. In J24's I used to change jibs multiple times in an afternoon; now I can't imagine doing it more than once a day, preferably at the dock, and even then only reluctantly, so sizing right to avoid sail changes would matter to me more than optimizing performance.

Which is all to say, I might go for less than 130% (either by smaller % or higher clew or both) if you want to keep the full genoa up past 13-15 apparent, and definitely if you wanted to run it upwind over 17-ish even partially furled. If you're OK with roller furling partially at lower wind speed, and care less about efficiency at the high end (and so are willing to roll farther than optimum), I'd get 130% to preserve the big sail area for the lower end winds.

PS: Others here can say whether you can roller furl a 130 enough to stay happy at 23 kts; I have not tried; my understanding is that sail performance is pretty well wrecked when roller furled more than some fraction - maybe from 130 to 110 or something - so if you want acceptable upwind performance at the higher end of your range then it might make sense to start with a smaller sail (so you could furl from 120 to 100, instead of from 130 to 110) while staying in the "not too bad" sail shape regime. I doubt it matters downwind, both since the sail is not acting as a wing then and because apparent wind is reduced anyway -- probably just an upwind issue. If more of your life is at 5 kts, though, as I mentioned I'd want to keep 130% and cope with more furling / bad sail shape on the upper end.

I think I remember reading Christian had a 120% on one of his Hawaii trips; if so he could speak to its suitability for your described winds.

PS: By the way, Christian, if you see this, out of curiosity what weight cloth is your "heavyweight" genoa?

 

[nquigley]

Thanks.
Of the three reefs, do you mean some of the rings (cringles?) are low-friction and some are steel? How is it decided which is which?
How is an "over-the-head" leech line different from the regular kind?
Did you discuss pros and cons regarding main batten lengths?
Good luck with your pickup.
Jeff

All standard steel cringles are in place, but a LFR is attached by a short tether to each cringle as an optional path for the reefing line. If the LFR tether were to part, the standard cringle is the backup.
The OTH leech line runs in a sleeve up the leech, through a small block sewn into the head, and down the luff. At each reef point in the luff is a jam cleat for tensioning/securing the leech line. This lets you make this adjustment at the mast, instead if near the end of the boom - perhaps with the boom more to leeward than you might want to be reaching out to in some conditions. Also, I have a full-cockpit bimini, which makes it difficult to safely reach where a conventional leech line would be.
I'm relying on the sailmaker to decide optimal batten length and amount of tapering

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

Informative thread. Thanks everyone.

 

[Christian Williams]

out of curiosity what weight cloth is your "heavyweight" genoa?

Here are the specs for my offshore sails. Such heavyweight sails don't fold well on the boom, and the furl on the headstay is not as smooth as most. They're bulletproof, but the tradeoff is bulk. A 120 overlap works fine for me offshore, as a singlehander. It's happy to be furled down to 10 percent, or operate long periods at 50 percent, and the heavy Dacron deals with that in winds gusting to 40. Not requirements for daysailing, so I'm ordering a 130 for local use, and going as lightweight a cloth as sailmaker will agree to. (2016 Pricing)

 

[Slick470]

Hi Andy,
Your loft's recommendations regarding the foam luff match what one of the makers told us. It makes sense to me. I've never noticed one, but it sounds like the rope would look really clumsy. Do you have any pictures of what it looks like fully out? I can't seem to find any online.
What percentage of sailing time do you reckon you have the jib roller reefed at least some?
Do you take your jib off after every sail?
Thanks,
Jeff

It seems all my pictures are of the other side of the sail where the ropes are not visible, but I don't think they look too bad. A furling sail is going to be a bit more of a compromise than one not built for a furler anyway. (even though it adds cost to build in those furling features) Ours is was made by North and it has three ropes in that are sewn in parallel to the luff tape. When the sail furls they stack up on each other and provide support for the luff as the sail rolls up. I raced on a friend's boat yesterday that has a foam luff pad and I felt like my sail looks better along the luff when partially furled than his does.

On the Chesapeake, the winds are pretty light most of the time, so I often sail with the sail fully out, but if I'm single handing or out with the family I'll often reef it down to around 100% to make things a bit easier to tack and power things down some. Furling it a little when going downwind flattens out the sail a bit too and makes it easier to trim.

I tend to leave the sail on the furler after each sail, unless I'm planning on racing and the conditions really warrant a 155% #1 or my 105% #3. In that case, I'll take the furling #2 down at the dock and probably put it in my car. The rope luff just makes it too unwieldy to do quick sail changes like you'd want with racing. The last couple seasons though, we often just raced with the #2 and reefed it if necessary for the conditions.