1989 Ericson 34 TAFG Cracked and Separated from Hull

[Puget sailor]

Looking at these pictures more clearly on my desktop, and considering the keel looks reasonable and the owners were clueless (let's for the moment give them the benefit of the doubt) I think we are seeing ice damage. Imagine a small leak from above, boat on the hard all winter, nobody aboard. Water level is up to the top of the tafg, including under the tafg "beams". Then it freezes solid as a rock because its in Maine. You have a several inch deep area of water freezing and expanding by a decent amount, pushing the tafg apart from the hull. The tafg is very robust indeed (thank you Ericson) and the hull is no slouch either. But the tabbed in connection and bonding to the hull is almost certainly the weak link and bam, it pops loose. Between ice, pushing it up, and subsequent force from sailing and hauling twice a year, there ya go. If the hull is sound, the, repair requires lots of cleaning (not easy), repositioning the tafg (moderate work) and rebonding (moderate work). And then it all needs to get put together nice and pretty again.

If this has happened once due to ice, it's happened many times in the northeast. If the price can be negotiated down enough to reflect the time and materials and then some, I'd ask around a other yards that do storage and repairs to see if they've seen similar damage from ice expansion. I bet they have. I'd think a responsible yard would check boats periodically during the winter for water unless they have a drain plug (some do, Ericson's don't seem to), but some owners have boats hauled to their own property too. I have a relative with a Tartan 34 that lives in his yard all winter, and he lives an hour from the coast outside Boston. It's cheaper that way. So oversight will vary, and damage is not hard in that situation.

Could also be a keel strike or drop or some combination of unfortunate events. How does the rest of the boat look? One thing is for sure, this is not normal wear and tear, so proceed accordingly. But if the hull is sound, and the keel connection sound, it does seem possible to repair. Perhaps no worse than a bad keel strike at 7 knots, although that can be bad too. This thread has some good insights, description of keel strike damage, and notes on tafg:

E32-200 - A fine line between stupid and clever

Here’s a rambling update in the writing-instead-of-financial-advice-or-psychological-therapy vein. I recently had a bit of a setback in my sailing adventures when I ran my boat into a big rock and damaged the keel and potentially other parts...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Kenneth K]

Think of it as an insurance sale, and price accordingly.

Yeah, it may not be insurable as is. And since the repair cost (at a yard) likely exceeds the value of the boat, it may essentially be "totaled," meaning it is basically worth its salvage value of only a few thousand $.

If not insurable, some marinas may not accept it for moorage.

 

[Loren Beach]

Yeah, it may not be insurable as is. And since the repair cost (at a yard) likely exceeds the value of the boat, it may essentially be "totaled," meaning it is basically worth its salvage value of only a few thousand $.

If not insurable, some marinas may not accept it for moorage.

The owner may well need a current survey for insurance no matter what. As i mentioned in the past, I got a new survey after our full re-fit, and the insurer quickly accepted our boat for double the prior agreed value. In my experience, and it may be completely different than for others, it pays to insure thru an independent agent, and to avoid a certain company.

 

[Kai]

I agree with most of you that ice is one of the most likely causes. The more I look at the photos I have it seems like there isn’t the other signs I would expect to see from a really severe impact. Of course its possible there was one a long time ago and the damage has been covered up. Looking through Sure Shot’s write up of the damage he had, the strike on the keel of this boat is much smaller. With the location of the cracked stringer being so close to the engine I think I would have to pull the engine up in order to cut and re align the TAFG. Many of you made good points about incorrect blocking being a contributing factor. I’m curious what would happen if I lift all the weight off the keel or even put the boat back in the water. I wonder if the hull would settle a bit and the gap between the hull and tabbing might close up some.

The owners told me they had it surveyed in 2017 before listing it for sale and the surveyor said everything looked good. However when a guy came to look at it they said he found the damage very quicky. I’d like to get a copy of the survey but I’m not sure I’ll put much stock in anything it says since he missed some pretty obvious damage.

If I can get it basically free I don’t think the material cost of the repairs would be all that much. Just a lot of time effort and learning which I am ok with. As I understand it I would need another survey post repairs in order to insure to boat again.

I am going up to meet the owner and check out the condition of the rig and sails tomorrow. I will update if I find anything new and whether I decide to take it on.

 

[Kasbud]

I have a damaged e34-2. If the boat is going to be parted out, I would be interested in buying cushions and the aluminum gunnel strip

 

[Drewm3i]

I agree with most of you that ice is one of the most likely causes. The more I look at the photos I have it seems like there isn’t the other signs I would expect to see from a really severe impact. Of course its possible there was one a long time ago and the damage has been covered up. Looking through Sure Shot’s write up of the damage he had, the strike on the keel of this boat is much smaller. With the location of the cracked stringer being so close to the engine I think I would have to pull the engine up in order to cut and re align the TAFG. Many of you made good points about incorrect blocking being a contributing factor. I’m curious what would happen if I lift all the weight off the keel or even put the boat back in the water. I wonder if the hull would settle a bit and the gap between the hull and tabbing might close up some.

The owners told me they had it surveyed in 2017 before listing it for sale and the surveyor said everything looked good. However when a guy came to look at it they said he found the damage very quicky. I’d like to get a copy of the survey but I’m not sure I’ll put much stock in anything it says since he missed some pretty obvious damage.

If I can get it basically free I don’t think the material cost of the repairs would be all that much. Just a lot of time effort and learning which I am ok with. As I understand it I would need another survey post repairs in order to insure to boat again.

I am going up to meet the owner and check out the condition of the rig and sails tomorrow. I will update if I find anything new and whether I decide to take it on.

What did you decide?

 

[Pete the Cat]

I would think this is likely fixable. I would want to grind back the aft section of the outside hull behind the keel to see if the hull laminate has been fractured by drop or rock, but beyond that, the TFG is really the structure of these boats. I got some flack for saying this last time, but on these Ericsons, the TAFG is really the whole structural integrity (engine and rigging all are bonded only to it and the hull is there to keep the water out. I think the connection between the TAFG and hulls is just to keep the furniture in place--at least on my boat. There are so many really bad boats out there, this one--if the rest of it is good--seems like one that should be saved from here. But I am not there. And I am too old for a project like this.

 

[Loren Beach]

Having crawled back into the stern sections of an E-33 (once...!) I recall that some parts of the TAFG were a bit proud of the hull surface. It occurs to me that making the separate set of molds for hull and the Very complex shape of the separate TAFG was a huge undertaking in engineering skill and production fit allowances.

Even the internal molded sections for our Olson have strong roving connecting all of them to the hull and deck and the thickness of the tabbing hints (well, to me, anyway) that there was perhaps some slight misalignment of the parts that would have to be bridged with tabbing.
While some of the EY and Olson models ended up as low production runs, like only 28 or 39 boats, all would have really benefited from the monocoque strength of this design scheme and would have amortized it out nicely over a larger production number. A number way over 100 or two hundred for many models.

My guess (really just a SWAG) is that the EY hull thickness combined with the extensive skeletal Grid produced a hull assembly much stronger than those of many of their competitors. It was an example of lowering production labor costs while showing that the Whole was a LOT stronger than the 'sum of the parts'.
Of course my opinion is completely unbiased!

 

[Christian Williams]

I have a hunch the separation of the TAGF and the hull may be "normal." The issue is the connection.

My model used continuous cloth, which gives a broad bond hull to grid. The boat in question appears to have strips of cloth, with less bond area.

My boat seems to have about the same gap, which might be acceptable since the fit of TAGF into hull was unlikely exact.

The bond shouldn't have broken, of course, but might just be a sloppy layup, ice or some other shrug. Have to be fixed, or there will always be water trapped in the grid.

...versus...

I suppose the cloth might have been continuous, but severed at the edges. But that doesn't seem typical of fiberglass, at least to my eye.



On looking at the photos again, I find I can easily argue against myself. The ragged edge of the "versus" photo can certainly suggest cloth break.

So either way, I am either right or wrong, or neither, or like a certain cat*, both at once.

*"Schrödinger's Cat is a famous thought experiment that demonstrates the idea in quantum physics that tiny particles can be in two states at once until they're observed. It asks you to imagine a cat in a box with a mechanism that might kill it. Until you look inside, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time."

 

[Drewm3i]

I bumped this thread because I was curious and am also considering a few different E-34-2 examples, some of which are in local boatyards but not on the market actively (I am in talks with one owner who has owned her since new, but got old and sick and she has sat for a decade). This one would need substantial work and has some oil canning from being on the hard so long with improperly set jack stands and in one of the areas there was a very small crack in the TAFG. I assume that if I were to remove the (rotten) floor, I may find other issues like the boat in question here. Didn't notice any strange warping of the engine pan like here though...

So I was wondering what OP decided. It seems he probably walked away so this E-34-2 is likely still up in Maine rotting away sadly. It would be a pity to see an otherwise nice Ericson die a slow death.

Re: the pictures, it seems to me the bond/tabbing failed--and that the E-34-2 being newer, wasn't built with as much glass as Christian's 381. Probably why the E-34-2 is so fast for its size, compared to other Ericsons. The E-34-2 also seems to carry more beam aft. I also noticed on the boat I looked at, a 1989 example, seemed to have bulkheads that were at least partially glued vs. tabbed, but I'm not sure. If I go back to the boat when I'm back in town, I will take pictures.

 

[kath]

I bumped this thread because I was curious and am also considering a few different E-34-2 examples, some of which are in local boatyards but not on the market actively (I am in talks with one owner who has owned her since new, but got old and sick and she has sat for a decade). This one would need substantial work and has some oil canning from being on the hard so long with improperly set jack stands and in one of the areas there was a very small crack in the TAFG. I assume that if I were to remove the (rotten) floor, I may find other issues like the boat in question here. Didn't notice any strange warping of the engine pan like here though...

So I was wondering what OP decided. It seems he probably walked away so this E-34-2 is likely still up in Maine rotting away sadly. It would be a pity to see an otherwise nice Ericson die a slow death.

Re: the pictures, it seems to me the bond/tabbing failed--and that the E-34-2 being newer, wasn't built with as much glass as Christian's 381. Probably why the E-34-2 is so fast for its size, compared to other Ericsons. The E-34-2 also seems to carry more beam aft. I also noticed on the boat I looked at, a 1989 example, seemed to have bulkheads that were at least partially glued vs. tabbed, but I'm not sure. If I go back to the boat when I'm back in town, I will take pictures.

Where are you looking? My 1988 Ericson 34 is for sale in Salisbury, MA. It’s listed on this site.

 

[Drewm3i]

Where are you looking? My 1988 Ericson 34 is for sale in Salisbury, MA. It’s listed on this site.

Hey Kathy, we've been in touch . I responded via email.

Regards,
Drew

 

[Kai]

I did decide to get the boat and have since repaired the TAFG and taken her our sailing. I am still working on a new floor and getting all of the fiberglass dust out of the boat! I ended up having the boat put in the water as is. I found that as I had hoped the gap between the hull and the TAFG closed considerably. The forward rectangles of the grid were fairly straight forward to repair. I just ground/cut the old tabbing out, got everything cleaned up and layered on new glass. It took a lot longer than I expected but other than that there were not too many surprises.









The area in front of the engine was a bit more challenging. There was just a lot going on with all the stringers coming together which made getting everything even pretty difficult. I checked the alignment of the engine and found that the mounts were still where they were supposed to be. I did end up lifting the engine just to get it out of the way and clean up underneath it. When the boat went back in the water everything settled back to pretty close to where it was supposed to be. As I ground down the glass I was able to get everything back to straight and level. I ended up with over 20 layers of 1708 at the thickest part in front of the engine and at the top of the keel. You can see in some of the photos that I didnt grind away all of the brown delaminated glass. I decided to leave the last layer so I had a scaffold to work with and added a few extra layers on top.










I feel confident in the way the repair turned out. I have been out in some pretty stiff breezes and so far everything is holding up well. I would like to get out in some big seas just to see how she does. But the boat feels stiff and I have been sailing as much as I can this summer. When I haul out this winter I am going to do a bunch of fairing and painting just to make it look pretty.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I did decide to get the boat and have since repaired the TAFG and taken her our sailing. I am still working on a new floor and getting all of the fiberglass dust out of the boat! I ended up having the boat put in the water as is. I found that as I had hoped the gap between the hull and the TAFG closed considerably. The forward rectangles of the grid were fairly straight forward to repair. I just ground/cut the old tabbing out, got everything cleaned up and layered on new glass. It took a lot longer than I expected but other than that there were not too many surprises.

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The area in front of the engine was a bit more challenging. There was just a lot going on with all the stringers coming together which made getting everything even pretty difficult. I checked the alignment of the engine and found that the mounts were still where they were supposed to be. I did end up lifting the engine just to get it out of the way and clean up underneath it. When the boat went back in the water everything settled back to pretty close to where it was supposed to be. As I ground down the glass I was able to get everything back to straight and level. I ended up with over 20 layers of 1708 at the thickest part in front of the engine and at the top of the keel. You can see in some of the photos that I didnt grind away all of the brown delaminated glass. I decided to leave the last layer so I had a scaffold to work with and added a few extra layers on top.
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I feel confident in the way the repair turned out. I have been out in some pretty stiff breezes and so far everything is holding up well. I would like to get out in some big seas just to see how she does. But the boat feels stiff and I have been sailing as much as I can this summer. When I haul out this winter I am going to do a bunch of fairing and painting just to make it look pretty.

Very impressive, all the work you've done!!! Bravo! She's going to be a great boat for you.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I would guess that this is one of those repairs that makes this boat "better than new". You did an amazingly thorough job. I would have taken this boat anywhere with half the glass you laid in there. Good job. Grinding is awful work. Glassing is only slightly better. Now the fun begins.

 

[Loren Beach]

Strictly and unabashedly IMHO: Ultimately for most any boat make / design, it's the real-world sailing performance that best justifies restoration time and $.
Absent great performance under sail, they just become another floating RV.

 

[e38 owner]

I am not an engineer by any means. I have always thought the Ericson Hull was built quite stout. The purpose of the the grid for the most part was to support the forces of the the rig throughout the boat. Thus the tapping would be to reduce flex and reduce the hull spans into smaller sections. That said I would think epoxy between the hull and grid along with tabbing would be sufficient Damage to the grid itself I think would affect the integrity of the boat

 

[Christian Williams]

On my model (and most models) , the drip pan under the engine is isolated from the bilge. The stern limber hole is connected to the main bilge by a sneaky PVC pipe which traverses the drip pan before emptying into the main bilge (and requires two 90-degree elbows to accommodate a height difference).

Our TAGF designs are different, just consider the drip pan and limber hole routing.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I am not an engineer by any means. I have always thought the Ericson Hull was built quite stout. The purpose of the the grid for the most part was to support the forces of the the rig throughout the boat. Thus the tapping would be to reduce flex and reduce the hull spans into smaller sections. That said I would think epoxy between the hull and grid along with tabbing would be sufficient Damage to the grid itself I think would affect the integrity of the boat

It would be great to have Bruce King weigh in on this and I am no naval architect but I have built a small sailboat and rebuilt a couple boats in my lifetime. If you look at the structure of the Ericsons with the TAFG, they are ridiculously overbuilt in structural integrity as all of the rig and engine loads actually have little to no stress on the deck and hull--unlike most conventional bulkhead bearing designs that use the hull as part of the stress structure. I have always thought that the massive structural weight (unbelievable layup structure--they must have bought train car loads of resin!) of the TAFG put the displacement weight of the boat a bit too high (I sail on SF Bay--maybe in SoCal this is just fine--I would prefer the bulk of the weight be as low as possible) but the trade off was that hull and deck are not subject to the flexing and stresses--as long as the water stays on the other side. I believe Ericson actually ushered in the modern way of recreational boat building--even as they went out of business themselves. From what I can see, the tabbing of the hull to the TAFG is not really a critical part of structural integrity--as long as the TAFG does not move around inside the shell of the hull, which it would not seem to have any kinetic reason to do, I don't see much structural threat. So I question how important tabbing is to structural integrity. Unless I am missing something, the rig, keel and engine are all anchored to the TAFG and have little dependence on the deck and hull for structural integrity.

 

[Drewm3i]

Amazing update! Good on you for saving this E-34!